Golden Dawn Declared Criminal Organization.

[Revnak]

Only you sees "center right" and immediately thinks "centrists." "Center-right" parties are called that because they generally aren't outright fascists like far right parties are in many counties.

The Greek center also created this entire scenario by forcing the Greek left to stay in the EU and begin cutting benefits despite both being wildly unpopular, leading to a loss of faith in the government. The entire time the Greek center platformed Golden Dawn and treated them as an authentic response to the debt crisis while the only ones who did anything to stop them were the anarchists in the streets.

The difference between the responsibility of the center and center-right in all these tragic events is aesthetic at best.

And that second one is going to require more than your already-suspect word on it. Put up a credible source and we can talk, otherwise, I'm done given your habit of trying to excuse corruption and authoritarianism when its by far-left parties.

Exclusive: Leaked Chats Between Brazilian Judge and Prosecutor Who Imprisoned Lula Reveal Prohibited Collaboration and Doubts Over Evidence

Judge Sergio Moro repeatedly counseled prosecutor Deltan Dallagnol via Telegram in investigation that imprisoned ex-president Lula da Silva and dozens more.

theintercept.com

The Secret History of U.S. Involvement in Brazil’s Operation Car Wash

Leaked chat logs show that Brazilian prosecutors evaded treaties to help the U.S. Justice Department investigate Brazilian corporations.

theintercept.com

And of course the intercept has more that they’ve released which is why Bolsonaro keeps “joking” about arresting and/or killing Greenwald, a man who I’ve little affection for but must admit has done more to fight fascism’s rise in Brazil than most.

If the center wanted to stop Bolsonaro, they could’ve let Lula run. He would’ve won, almost certainly. They instead manufactured charges to help Bolsonaro win

Edit: also, calling your fucking bluff, what authoritarian government do I support Gentleman? Please, I’d fucking love to know.

 

[Hades]

I spoke about the Golden Dawn, Alternative for Germany, and France's National Front when they all won elections after the wake caused by Trump. And on the old forums, I was told they were just minor and I was getting worked up over nothing.

Whelp. Here we are.

That's not quite correct. Trump is not the vanguard of a populist movement. Its the other way around. Trump is a latecomer who was inspired by populist movements that were already successful in Europe for years. PVV, Golden Dawn, AFD, Front national all existed as prominent parties long before Trump. They mostly formed in response to migration and truly became prominent in the chaos of the financial crisis.

In fact Trump might have done more to hinder than help his populist peers. The Dutch and French elections were shortly after the American one, and Wilders and Le Pen had high chances of getting elected. Despite their strong hand they ultimately lost those elections. Its speculated that Trump might have had a chilling effect on the populist movement since everyone saw the chaos Trump's populist government was causing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

When I was reading about how the bigots were even attacking the Polish people in the UK, and makes me seriously worry if it is bad enough that white people are even racistly attacking other white people, do I even stand a chance?

They've been doing that for centuries, it's why there's so many Irish people outside the UK.

Though, wasn't there a lot of anti-slavic sentiment in the US, at least during the Cold War?

That's not quite correct. Trump is not the vanguard of a populist movement. Its the other way around. Trump is a latecomer who was inspired by populist movements that were already successful in Europe for years. PVV, Golden Dawn, AFD, Front national all existed as prominent parties long before Trump. They mostly formed in response to migration and truly became prominent in the chaos of the financial crisis.

In fact Trump might have done more to hinder than help his populist peers. The Dutch and French elections were shortly after the American one, and Wilders and Le Pen had high chances of getting elected. Despite their strong hand they ultimately lost those elections. Its speculated that Trump might have had a chilling effect on the populist movement since everyone saw the chaos Trump's populist government was causing.

Dunno. Yes, Trump didn't appear out of nowhere, but he's also good at normalising certain behaviours and that's affecting the rest of the world.

 

[Tireseas]

The Greek center also created this entire scenario by forcing the Greek left to stay in the EU

I'm sorry, the left wanted to leave the EU? And this was a good thing? And a progressive act? Am I missing something here where the EU

and begin cutting benefits despite both being wildly unpopular, leading to a loss of faith in the government.

Now this is something that I was particularly upset about at the time because austerity policies simply don't work in an economic crisis and the government, which was heavily pressured by Germany's government (another center-right government, though this one is actually closer to a moderate party than New Democracy).

The entire time the Greek center platformed Golden Dawn and treated them as an authentic response to the debt crisis while the only ones who did anything to stop them were the anarchists in the streets.

And here's where we diverge: when a party is elected democratically, no amount of protest or rioting is going to make it illegitimate. It plays into the fascist narrative and on their turf, that they are the victims. They won the election and because of those anarchists, they won the narrative, at least temporarily, and part of dealing with them involves unseating them in the democratic process. Unless you're claiming Greece has devolved to the level of Hungary, no mob is going to have the legitimacy to remove duly elected representatives no matter how just their cause may be.

The difference between the responsibility of the center and center-right in all these tragic events is aesthetic at best.

Except you have this nasty habit to merge the center left and the center right when the applicable politics does not reflect that, such as in the US.
1/2

 

[Tireseas]

Exclusive: Leaked Chats Between Brazilian Judge and Prosecutor Who Imprisoned Lula Reveal Prohibited Collaboration and Doubts Over Evidence

Judge Sergio Moro repeatedly counseled prosecutor Deltan Dallagnol via Telegram in investigation that imprisoned ex-president Lula da Silva and dozens more.

theintercept.com

The Secret History of U.S. Involvement in Brazil’s Operation Car Wash

Leaked chat logs show that Brazilian prosecutors evaded treaties to help the U.S. Justice Department investigate Brazilian corporations.

theintercept.com

And of course the intercept has more that they’ve released which is why Bolsonaro keeps “joking” about arresting and/or killing Greenwald, a man who I’ve little affection for but must admit has done more to fight fascism’s rise in Brazil than most.

If the center wanted to stop Bolsonaro, they could’ve let Lula run. He would’ve won, almost certainly. They instead manufactured charges to help Bolsonaro win

Let me spell this out for you: He was accused of and convicted on charges of laundering US$1.2m in construction contracts. The government at the time, which was his party, did everything they could to shield him, including putting him in a position that greatly limited the jurisdiction he could be charged in. He still lost that case and every appeal. If you think he would have won in spite of all that, which I'm not saying is impossible (Louisiana did so when David Duke ran against the almost blatantly corrupt Democratic incumbent at the time), you have a burden to meet there.

As for the sources, I'm not a fan of the intercepts editorial standards (and Greenwald in particular is a fascist appologist), but I'll call them persuasive but not conclusive. The evidence wasn't exactly spun up out of air. Unless corruption is acceptable to you when it's by people you like.

Edit: also, calling your fucking bluff, what authoritarian government do I support Gentleman? Please, I’d fucking love to know.

Were you not one of the many who was perfectly okay when Maduro stole the election in Venezuela in 2018? Or reflexively backed the Bolivian incumbent when election observers had serious concerns about irregularities?

(Those are serious questions: we lost the v1 forums where these topics were located and you tend to be of the group that espoused those particular positions, but verification is difficult when there's no record to go to.)

It doesn't help that your approach to elections in the US appears to be "I'd rather let the fascists win than ally myself with liberals for a common cause," which makes it really hard to make me think you actually support democracy over authoritarianism.

2/2

 

[Neuromancer]

I do think it's genuinely quite shocking that - not just in Greece - society has been so passive about these scum. If we were honest, across much of the Western world these guys have been given too much slack.

History has shown that if there's one thing that Fascists are good at, is at exploiting democratic conventions to further their goals. It's why counter-demonstration and anti-fascist action is required to actually suppress them.

 

[Revnak]

Let me spell this out for you: He was accused of and convicted on charges of laundering US$1.2m in construction contracts. The government at the time, which was his party, did everything they could to shield him, including putting him in a position that greatly limited the jurisdiction he could be charged in. He still lost that case and every appeal. If you think he would have won in spite of all that, which I'm not saying is impossible (Louisiana did so when David Duke ran against the almost blatantly corrupt Democratic incumbent at the time), you have a burden to meet there.

As for the sources, I'm not a fan of the intercepts editorial standards (and Greenwald in particular is a fascist appologist), but I'll call them persuasive but not conclusive. The evidence wasn't exactly spun up out of air. Unless corruption is acceptable to you when it's by people you like.

If Trump arrested Biden over the similar Ukraine shit, how would you respond? Pretty sure that involves way more than 1.2 million dollars. What if they’d arrested Hilary over the emails? Clearly, corruption is fine with you when it’s someone you like. The evidence has been shown to have been flimsy and the case was coordinated to help Bolsonaro. It’s bullshit. No more corrupt than the actions of any other Brazilian politician, including Bolsonaro and the graft he’s done to help his fail sons.

Were you not one of the many who was perfectly okay when Maduro stole the election in Venezuela in 2018? Or reflexively backed the Bolivian incumbent when election observers had serious concerns about irregularities?

Opposing US backed coups is not supporting the government they are couping. Maduro should stand down and have new elections, though obviously Guaido should also not run given all the coup attempts he’s connected to. Bolivia though, where that’s been shown to have all been bullshit and the interim has behaved so horrifically, is clear cut as fuck. May not love Morales, but what occurred in Bolivia was criminal.

It doesn't help that your approach to elections in the US appears to be "I'd rather let the fascists win than ally myself with liberals for a common cause," which makes it really hard to make me think you actually support democracy over authoritarianism.

2/2

I am voting for Biden and would’ve voted for Hilary if there was the slightest chance she would’ve lost my state.

 

[Revnak]

I'm sorry, the left wanted to leave the EU? And this was a good thing? And a progressive act? Am I missing something here where the EU

The EU sucks balls. It’s an inherently capitalist and anti-democratic entity. Fuck the EU.

Now this is something that I was particularly upset about at the time because austerity policies simply don't work in an economic crisis and the government, which was heavily pressured by Germany's government (another center-right government, though this one is actually closer to a moderate party than New Democracy).

And the center were the ones who forced them to.

And here's where we diverge: when a party is elected democratically, no amount of protest or rioting is going to make it illegitimate. It plays into the fascist narrative and on their turf, that they are the victims. They won the election and because of those anarchists, they won the narrative, at least temporarily, and part of dealing with them involves unseating them in the democratic process. Unless you're claiming Greece has devolved to the level of Hungary, no mob is going to have the legitimacy to remove duly elected representatives no matter how just their cause may be.

Yeah they just did photo ops with them and regularly praised them, no biggie. They also refused to call out their outright criminal behavior and murders of migrants, instead saying the anarchists protecting them were doing all the real violence. Cool. Rad. Love it.

Except you have this nasty habit to merge the center left and the center right when the applicable politics does not reflect that, such as in the US.
1/2

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, sorry I criticize your precious liberals. I promise I’ll never hurt your wounded feelies again. So sad you didn’t get your cushy state department job because your candidate sucked ass.

 

[Satinavian]

In fact Trump might have done more to hinder than help his populist peers. The Dutch and French elections were shortly after the American one, and Wilders and Le Pen had high chances of getting elected. Despite their strong hand they ultimately lost those elections. Its speculated that Trump might have had a chilling effect on the populist movement since everyone saw the chaos Trump's populist government was causing.

No. Even the European extreme right does not want to be associated with Trump for the most part. He is really unpopular and most of the potential right wing voter base despises hin.
The only thing he has done for pushing extreme-right parties is convincing people that the US is not a reliable ally and prone to bullying which gives some argument to nationalists for showing strength internationally and reducing dependency on other nations, specifically the US.

It really is scary tbh how much this crap has been on the rise in so many places right now.. When I was reading about how the bigots were even attacking the Polish people in the UK, and makes me seriously worry if it is bad enough that white people are even racistly attacking other white people, do I even stand a chance? Though then I think, I have survived the Neo Nazis and KKK here, is it as bad, worse or better than what I am already dealing with here? Like do we need like a racism meter to gauge if it is safe to travel there?

You know what, it is seriously F'd up that we have to even think about this in the fist place...

Nearly all important conflicts in Europe in the last couple thousand years where white on white. All the longer existing ethnical conflicts in Europe are white on white. Europeans don't really identify as white, at least not in the way white Americans do. Europe also has not had the same kind of segregation and civil rights movement the US did. If you ask which important minorities exist that regularly are discussed in terms of discrimination/participation, most of those are white. The only exceptions are in former colonial powers and people coming from those colonies.

As for the UK, well, the Polish are mostly newcomers, poor and are there for the jobs because pay is way higher than in Poland. They often don't speak English that well. Do you really expect that the sentiments are that different to Latino immigrants in the US ? It is exactly the same "poor foreigners coming to steal our jobs/abuse our social benefits ". Why should it be different because they are white ?

In Germany it is all about Turks, Arabs and Eastern European, which are all considered white here. Turks and Arabs have more problems in the eastern part because they have not been well established there and the part is way poorer and foreigners taking jobs seen more as a threat, Eastern Europeans have more problems in the west because a lot of prejudices still exist from the Cold War era. There is also some case to be made that Eastern Germans themself are a minority discriminated against.
But you ? American native descent, presumably looking that way, also fluent in English ? You would just be interesting and exotic. There are no racial prejudices against your people or any recent or ancient grudges, no ongoing conflicts. Though there might be a chance people take you for Asien instead (Indian, Vietnamese, Chinese depending on how you look and where exactly you are) because Native Americans are just that rare.


The American Idea of "White" is something born there out of the melting pot immigration based country with a slavery tradition based on skin color and suppression of natives. In Europe race theory is out since the fourties and was more concerned with justifying why some whites where better than others before that date.

 

[Seanchaidh]

He still lost that case and every appeal. If you think he would have won in spite of all that

Opinion polling for the 2018 Brazilian general election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

he was ahead of all other candidates in every poll in which he was allowed as an answer.

The evidence wasn't exactly spun up out of air.

Certainly seems like it was.

Also, how are there still people pretending that reflexively dismissing transparently stupid OAS criticism of an election is somehow bad? It was obvious that their reasoning was stupid just based on comparisons with almost any election in the United States. Wow, different areas with wildly different demographics had different voting patterns in a country where classism and racism are central, SO SUSPICIOUS.

The New York Times Admits Key Falsehoods That Drove Last Year's Coup in Bolivia: Falsehoods Peddled by the U.S., Its Media, and the Times

The U.S. government and its media once again help destroy a thriving Latin American democracy.

theintercept.com

 

[Neuromancer]

I'm sorry, the left wanted to leave the EU? And this was a good thing? And a progressive act? Am I missing something here where the EU

Yes. The left wanted to leave the EU. But it was not merely because the EU is currently a wide mess, but it was also a question of national sovereignty. After the recession hit, the Greek economy was in the hands of the government only nominally. The ones really running the show were the German banks and the IMF, who enforced vast privatisation and dismantling of welfare apparatus through threatening not to send relief packages. They enforced some of the most brutal austerity measures in modern times. Old people in retirement could no longer live with their pensions, income was slashed to the point where you couldn't live on wages, worker protections were also shattered, so your boss could coerce you to work unpaid overtime and with almost 20% unemployent and so many people out there outright begging for work to not lose everything you knew you were completely expendable and easily replaceable.

This isn't exaggeration. When the recession hit in 2009 and until thing started stabilizing around a couple of years ago, everyone was basically in freefall. My grandmother could no longer (and still can't) support herself on her pension, my mother had (and still has, though less frequently) worked 12 hour days for months at a time. I had to quit my postgrand to work because we couldn't, collectively, as a family, make do otherwise. And we were lucky to have jobs during that time. In my friend circles, the ones of us that had work pooled money together to give to those that didn't, because otherwise they would starve. If the recession itself was a right hook, then the policies the greek government was made to do were the uppercut that lead to the knockout.

Not that the New Democracy regime offered any sort of resistance, I might add. If anything, being neoliberals, they were more than happy to use this excuse to dismantle welfare and mass privatize, Part of the reason SYRIZA won their term of office is because they promised an end to such inhumane measures. When they won and Varoufakis went to negotiate new terms and alternative solutions, it was made clear that they would not accept anything but their mandate, and it was either that or bankruptcy. So a referendum was held on whether it would be that or bankruptcy, and the popular vote decided bankruptcy. It was an issue of national sovereignty. As it stood, and still stands, the German banks have been making a killing out of debt payments from Greek relief packages, and the fear is that Greece would end up like other debt-crippled nations like Madagascar, where it's a vicious cycle of getting more debt to pay up previous debt.

The vote for bankruptcy won, but Tsipras caved in anyway and betrayed his voters. The new terms that were offered were even stricter. When nominal resistance was given against accepting, the IMF stalled negotiations until Greece run out of national capital in order to accept even harsher deals.This is no Brexit, Greece had the choice of not being able to run their own economy or go bankrupt.

 

[Satinavian]

I'm sorry, the left wanted to leave the EU? And this was a good thing? And a progressive act? Am I missing something here where the EU

That is not untypical.

In most countries the center wants to stay. Because the center is mostly happy with the status quo and slight changes can easily be done in the EU framework while it still benefits trade and gives stability. But the farther away left and right, the more common are the people who want to leave because they don't want to keep the status quo. On the right nationalist sentiments add to that, on the left there are a lot of buissness and trade regulations that limit gouvenrment meddling in economics which are seen as a problem.

 

[Agema]

No. Even the European extreme right does not want to be associated with Trump for the most part. He is really unpopular and most of the potential right wing voter base despises him.

They do, and they don't.

They might not like Trump in some ways, but on the other hand they see a leader who is espousing the same sorts of things they do, so in ways they are also very sympathetic to him. He's ensuring right-wing nationalist views get more airtime, he's helping unpick the co-operative postwar global consensus they also hate, and he provides credibility that right-wing nationalists can take governance. The main problem for Trump with them is the perception that he's an incompetent buffoon.

The funny thing about all the right-wing European nationalists is that they are ultimately advocating for a Europe where they are all competitors vying for dominance over each other with narrow-minded national self interest, and yet whilst all in opposition are assisting each other to grow in power in their respective countries to destroy the wider political order.

 

[Satinavian]

The main problem for Trump with them is the perception that he's an incompetent buffoon.

Mostly i hear and read them complaining that Trump is such a corrupt incompetent idiot that he makes nationalism and other shared right wing points look bad. They are well aware that there are overlapping talking points and arguments, it still does not make them happy to be associated with him.

 

[Agema]

You say in a thread about Golden Dawn, who rose to such prominence because the Greek center bolstered them.

To concur with Tieresias here, you mean the centre-right.

When the far right take over, it is almost inevitably by co-opting the centre-right, because the centre-right looks at the far right and doesn't see people so different from themselves. In the state of polarisation where the far right takes power, the centre has usually either not significantly existed in the first place or collapsed.

 

[Satinavian]

I spoke about the Golden Dawn, Alternative for Germany

AfD really is not like Golden Dawn.

Over the years Germany has had a couple of far right parties : Republikaner, DVU, NPD among them. If they get their shit together and one of their talking points is important, they can get around 5% and that is it. Some of those were eventually forbidden but only one of them could ever be strong at the same time. Nowadays there is none because of the AfD.

AfD was founded as right from the center-right, originally about limiting EU-influence and getting rid of the Euro. Reason was the Greek mess because many Germans did not see why their tax money should be used to solve Greek problem when there are many other, poorer EU nations and nothing but abuse comes from Athens in German direction.
They adopted an anti-immigration stance with the migrant wave in 2015. This is when the xenophobic far right and the neonazis joined them en mass. This gave them higher percentages in elections but at a price.

Throughout the last years the AfD has mostly been busy with infighting and defining how right they actually are. Many members, even in various parliaments have left them because they turned too right. But many other members, including some sitting in parliaments were actually excluded because they had neonazi ties or said something too far on the right side.
The far right wants to take over the party and the voters. It is their only chance to ever get significant percentages which the pure far right parties never managed. But at the same time, most other members don't want to be in a Neonazi party, they just want to be on the conservative side of the CDU. But they also do want the far right voterbase because that potential 5% is still a lot and with just the not-center-not-far-right conservatives they are too weak to stay relevant. After Brexit, anti-EU sentimenzs do not bring in votes.
Recently they also adopted an anti-science stance and appeal to the esotheric people, homeopathy proponents and similar groups as those feel that their former home in the Green party is taken over by very pro-science global warming activists who don't want to have any of that nonsense.

So the AfD has lots of Neonazis. Even people who are certified as fascists by a court (result of defamation lawsuits). But the AfD is not a Neonazi party. It is a deeply dysfunctional amalgan of people who have no other political home fighting over scraps. There is no party policy to speak of. Or even a politician the party actually supports.

 

[Revnak]

To concur with Tieresias here, you mean the centre-right.

When the far right take over, it is almost inevitably by co-opting the centre-right, because the centre-right looks at the far right and doesn't see people so different from themselves. In the state of polarisation where the far right takes power, the centre has usually either not significantly existed in the first place or collapsed.

Whatever. I’m tired of splitting hairs over this shit. Someone else wanna tag in go ahead.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I thought the Golden Dawn were magicians, when did they become racist political extremist criminals?

 

[Samtemdo8]

Well, "now" being a trial that has lasted half a decade finally concluding. The proceedings have taken this long despite heaps of incontrovertible evidence pointing at the obvious conclusion. As for the far right, it's less overt now. Like I've said, that the Golden Dawn's leadership is being jailed doesn't change that they've had huge police support over the years, or that they have friends in the military. Hence the Brecht quote. Dealing with the far-right has always been an uphill battle in Greece, and the struggle goes back all the way to WW2 and the civil war afterwards. The Brits were pretty fine with putting nazi collaborators in government if it ment the communists would be stopped, and Greece remains one of the few countries where Nazi collaborators were never trialed but rather placed into power even after the war.

Even after that there was a US-backed military junta back in the late 60's. A great deal of the current police and military apparatus was built by great power-backed far right, and both police and military is in large parts full of people with connections and legacy on those regimes.

For example, during my draft I served in the Rimini Brigade, and in its headquarters you could see in display pictures of people saluting Metaxas (the WW2 dictator) and of parades during the Junta, including a handshake with the leader of the Junta. These are not just there for historical reasons, and it's clear from the way that they are placed that they are there to showcase reverence to the brigade's past glories. And having served right in the thick of a new refugee crisis, I can tell you that I have seen a great deal of brutality and hatred towards refugees. One of my superiors told me, while we were watching the border and we were discussing the refugees, that he "feels sorry for the kids, but not the whores that spawned them." The current Chief of Staff has very casually said that "first we'll burn them and then ask who they are"

Long story short, though the far right has been weakened the past years in terms of outright brutality and terror attacks, they remain strong within the police and military, and the police force remains one of the most brutal in Europe.




Ι remember back when Golden Dawn was on the rise there was an interview with Mihaloliakos' right hand man Kasidiaris in one of those trashy gossip shows where they called him "a man of our generation", "sensitive" and very "caring", generally humanizing him and making him sound like an upstanding citizen.

That was after Kasidiaris attacked another MP on live television.

"Dealing with the far-right has always been an uphill battle in Greece, and the struggle goes back all the way to WW2 and the civil war afterwards. The Brits were pretty fine with putting nazi collaborators in government if it ment the communists would be stopped, and Greece remains one of the few countries where Nazi collaborators were never trialed but rather placed into power even after the war."

Part of me still wonders if in some alternate reality, the British and Americans sided with the Nazis against the Soviets because they were that staunch Anti-Communist that they would side with Genocidal fascists? I mean the British and Americans were guilty of doing the same thing as the Nazis arguably in the past.

I mean former American Soldiers ended up becoming Neo-Nazis because of their sheer distaste of Communism. Like George Lincoln Rockwell:

George Lincoln Rockwell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Thaluikhain]

Part of me still wonders if in some alternate reality, the British and Americans sided with the Nazis against the Soviets because they were that staunch Anti-Communist that they would side with Genocidal fascists? I mean the British and Americans were guilty of doing the same thing as the Nazis arguably in the past.

They did. Hitler's anti-Communist stance got him popularity outside of Germany (not that eugenics and anti-semitism were always unpopular either), he was seen as a useful buffer against Stalin. Then Stalin and Hitler signed a pact (I believe partly because of that) and rocked the boat quite a bit. Later on, of course, the USSR joined the UK and US (and some lesser nations not starting with U) in the fight against Nazism. Lots of swapping sides going on there.

IIRC, the genocide stuff wasn't a big deal until a bit into WW2, people didn't know or care and it wasn't so big and obvious at the start of the Nazi reign. Not to say that it didn't exist back then, just it wasn't industrial scale, more everyday stuff it was easy to overlook.