Sounds like trump is planning on nominating someone named Amy Coney Barrett to the supreme court.

[tstorm823]

Yeah you're just living in another world or just bullshitting. The amount of abuse the church carried out in Ireland is well documented and more and more keeps coming out.

I live in reality. A lot of people in the world live in this fantasy where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions, but horrible things like religion ruin everything. If only we could get rid of things like religion, they think we'd have peace and harmony. And then they attack all the people who did their best to help make the world better because bad things still happened. But bad things always happen, and you have to keep that context before making scathing moral judgments.

 

[lil devils x]

1) You don't know that.
2) Perhaps the rapist was the one on camera duty.
3) Perhaps the rapist ignored the requirements.

Like, you're automatically assuming the institution screwed up because someone was raped. By that logic, you have to destroy every institution in existence. All of them. People do bad things everywhere, in spite of efforts to stop them.

That is what is determined in the lawsuit is it not? if the court determines they did everything in their power to prevent this from happening then they weren't negligent, if the court determines they didn't then they were.

Proper oversight is what prevents the rapist from ignoring the requirements, who was overseeing that proper protocols were being followed?

 

[happyninja42]

I live in reality. A lot of people in the world live in this fantasy where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions, but horrible things like religion ruin everything. If only we could get rid of things like religion, they think we'd have peace and harmony.

haha, this is such an idiotic misrepresentation, it's laughable. Non of us think that everything will be magically fixed if we did away with religion. But the religious organizations of the world would no longer get a free pass in society to just make blanket statements about right and wrong, place themselves in a position of ultimate authority to dictate how people should live, contrary to testable evidence, and leech off society by scaring people into thinking they are sick with an invisible, intangible disease, from the dawn of time, and they alone have the cure, as long as you obey their every command, and give them 10% of your earnings.

 

[lil devils x]

I live in reality. A lot of people in the world live in this fantasy where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions, but horrible things like religion ruin everything. If only we could get rid of things like religion, they think we'd have peace and harmony. And then they attack all the people who did their best to help make the world better because bad things still happened. But bad things always happen, and you have to keep that context before making scathing moral judgments.

Who lives in a world where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions? Literally no one has said that except for you.

 

[Cheetodust]

Now give evidence that these things happened in the way you're describing. Find me where the priests were being prosecuted and got smuggled away from the charges.

They were moved before they were prosecuted.

I don't know why I'm bothering you've made your mind up already but actually trying to defend the Catholic Church in this is fucked.

Opinion: Is the Catholic Church still covering up child sex abuse on the grounds that it is a 'pontifical secret'?

The summit heard that the canon law protection of ‘pontifical secret’ had been applied to numerous clerical abuse cases. Bizarrely, it was suggested that this practice should not continue – indicating that it is ongoing. writes Shane Dunphy.

www.google.com

Catholic church in Ireland covered up child abuse, says report

Inquiry into child abuse at Irish Catholic institutions condemns systemic 'perversion of power and trust'

www.google.com

Hide the Buggering Priests! – OC Weekly

www.ocweekly.com

What Pope Benedict Knew About Abuse in the Catholic Church

News of abuse cases within the choir led by Pope Benedict’s brother has raised more questions about what Benedict knew and when he knew it.

www.google.com

This shit is well documented.

 

[Cheetodust]

I live in reality. A lot of people in the world live in this fantasy where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions, but horrible things like religion ruin everything. If only we could get rid of things like religion, they think we'd have peace and harmony. And then they attack all the people who did their best to help make the world better because bad things still happened. But bad things always happen, and you have to keep that context before making scathing moral judgments.

Strawman won't engage.

 

[Gergar12]

ACB, and likely a number of Americans live in a cult. I was just listening to the other day about how we need to be nice to ACB without shaming her, and etc on War on the Rocks, no she is a cultist.

Her beliefs belong more in 15th Spain, then they do in 21st century America.

As for Catholics who like to pretend that they have a progressive pope, how progressive is Pope Francis on House Christians, or Uygur Muslims, or general oppression in China, he rightly rants about Trump putting kids in cages and being a dick to Syrian refugees, what about Ugyur Concentration camps, he only cares about his own power, and the power of a dying Catholic Chruch, and an institution that belongs to the past, not the present.

 

[tstorm823]

Who lives in a world where everything is happy fun times and nobody is evil and all problems have easy solutions? Literally no one has said that except for you.

Well, in a different post in I'm not sure which thread, I said that bad things happen everywhere, and a communist "corrected" me by saying I was almost right, if I had just said that bad things always happen in capitalist systems. So Imma go with them. You have a bad habit of denying the opinions of the other people you argue with here.

 

[lil devils x]

Well, in a different post in I'm not sure which thread, I said that bad things happen everywhere, and a communist "corrected" me by saying I was almost right, if I had just said that bad things always happen in capitalist systems. So Imma go with them. You have a bad habit of denying the opinions of the other people you argue with here.

I don't " deny opinions" I argue facts. Facts =\= opinions. I can think someone's opinion sucks, just like they can think my opinion sucks. That is like you saying you think Kasich is a wiener and I think Cruz is a moldy wiener. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. " Alternative facts", though, that Is just nonsense.

Bad things can happen in any system. The important part is to try and plan for bad things and circumvent them before they happen. It is just a matter of being able to understand cause and effect and possible event chains and planning for them. being able to do that and actually doing that is the difference between competence and incompetence in leadership. If they can't adequately plan for the future, and hire people who can do so, they have no business in leadership in the first place.

If they are not capable of planning proper oversight, they are unfit for the job in the first place. You don't just wait for bad things to happen and then act, you put measures in place to actually deal with these problems BEFORE they become a problem. They really do not even have a case that they couldn't know this could happen, because it has happened numerous times elsewhere, so they should have taken that knowledge and learned from it before enabling it to happen here as well. If they failed to learn from this happening to others and made no effort to prevent it from happening here, then they are indeed negligent.

 

[tstorm823]

They were moved before they were prosecuted.

I don't know why I'm bothering you've made your mind up already but actually trying to defend the Catholic Church in this is fucked.

This shit is well documented.

But the documentation isn't what you're claiming that it is. Like, the undisputed facts: priests molested children, Church officials had records of it, offenders were moved. You're imagining a world where the criminal justice system would have handled the offenders if the Church cooperated, and that makes it look like a cover-up. Instead imagine the real world where the criminal justice system fails to convict in >99% of rape cases, and suddenly the record keeping and sequestering rapists feels a lot less like cover-up and a lot more like the best crappy options they had.

 

[Cheetodust]

But the documentation isn't what you're claiming that it is. Like, the undisputed facts: priests molested children, Church officials had records of it, offenders were moved. You're imagining a world where the criminal justice system would have handled the offenders if the Church cooperated, and that makes it look like a cover-up. Instead imagine the real world where the criminal justice system fails to convict in >99% of rape cases, and suddenly the record keeping and sequestering rapists feels a lot less like cover-up and a lot more like the best crappy options they had.

Ah yes so to avoid the criminal justice system doing nothing the church did... nothing. Fuck me sideways.


Edit: correction, to avoid the criminal justice system doing nothing the church did nothing and then lied about it.

 

[tstorm823]

Ah yes so to avoid the criminal justice system doing nothing the church did... nothing. Fuck me sideways.

If by nothing, you mean more than basically any other group on the planet, then you're starting to understand.

 

[Cheetodust]

If by nothing, you mean more than basically any other group on the planet, then you're starting to understand.

Man, they took priests they knew were abusing kids and put them in other parishes where they continued to abuse kids. This is ridiculous.

 

[tstorm823]

Man, they took priests they knew were abusing kids and put them in other parishes where they continued to abuse kids. This is ridiculous.

Which is different than what schools have done? Police? Hospitals? What institution is innocent of this? Are they all evil conspiracies to molest more children, or have they done the best they could with the circumstances they had to deal with?

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Which is different than what schools have done? Police? Hospitals? What institution is innocent of this? Are they all evil conspiracies to molest more children, or have they done the best they could with the circumstances they had to deal with?

Why exactly is that their best and not turning them over to the police?

 

[tstorm823]

Why exactly is that their best and not turning them over to the police?

Because police aren't great at convicting rapists.
Because the police could have declined to investigate.
Because the victim might not have wanted to come forward.
Because the crime was only known through the confessional.

There are tons of reasons why any group might not be able to drop someone off at a precinct with a sticky note saying "rapist" on their forehead. Even more reasons in a close community. Turning them over to the police isn't always an option, nor does it always work.

 

[Cheetodust]

Which is different than what schools have done? Police? Hospitals? What institution is innocent of this? Are they all evil conspiracies to molest more children, or have they done the best they could with the circumstances they had to deal with?

No. None of those institutes did the best they could because nobody got punished. That's the entire point here. If you know your employees raped people and then you moved them to avoid them ever getting prosecuted then you are culpable. By your logic they were moved because the institution knew they wouldn't be punished by the law? What fucking bizarro logic is that? They weren't punished. You insist they were but all that happened to them was they got shuffled around and continued to rape by an institution that knew they were raping.
This is the most circular reasoning I've ever seen. You brought the Catholic Church up because you think it's wrong to blame institutions when their employees abuse people in their care. I point out that church should be held accountable and now you're asking if other institutions should be held accountable in a conversation about institutions being held responsible for the actions of it's employees. Yes. Yes they should and the church is one of those institutions that should be held accountable. Christ on a bike.

 

[Cheetodust]

Because police aren't great at convicting rapists.
Because the police could have declined to investigate.
Because the victim might not have wanted to come forward.
Because the crime was only known through the confessional.

There are tons of reasons why any group might not be able to drop someone off at a precinct with a sticky note saying "rapist" on their forehead. Even more reasons in a close community. Turning them over to the police isn't always an option, nor does it always work.

But why leave them in a position to rape more kids? Which they did. They got moved to far away parishes where nobody knew anything about any allegations against them and they continued to rape kids.

 

[Secondhand Revenant]

Because police aren't great at convicting rapists.
Because the police could have declined to investigate.
Because the victim might not have wanted to come forward.
Because the crime was only known through the confessional.

There are tons of reasons why any group might not be able to drop someone off at a precinct with a sticky note saying "rapist" on their forehead. Even more reasons in a close community. Turning them over to the police isn't always an option, nor does it always work.

Okay let's go through these

1. So what if the police aren't the best at it? Reporting it does not prevent them from taking other actions if the police fail.
2. Okay this is not a downside to them attempting to report it and still leaves them the ability to take other action
3. If the victim won't go then sure. But that clearly has not been the case for several instances. Furthermore, the action of shuffling someone around is insufficient. They should be removed from any positions and no longer work for the institution
4. Not an excuse, that's just a moral failing of the institution that they put it higher than the well being of children and still does not adequately address the people being removed from all positions at the institution

A 'close community' isn't a reason to protect rapists from prosecution.

 

[tstorm823]

If you know your employees raped people and then you moved them to avoid them ever getting prosecuted then you are culpable.

You do understand you're making pretty wild assumptions with this, right? Assuming people would get prosecuted if they stayed in place. Assuming people aren't prosecuted if they are moved. Assuming the move was done with that purpose. You're beginning with the premise that it's a cover-up and rationalizing how the actionas are evil. But putting space between criminal and victim is so obviously beneficial to the victim, there's no need to view it that way. Many of these priests were holed away in elderly communities with no children. And at the same time, a great percentage of clergy sex crimes were convicted than similar crimes among the general population. Why do you think they were dodging law enforcement?