Sounds like trump is planning on nominating someone named Amy Coney Barrett to the supreme court.

dreng3

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Yes, as a justification for changing the law. Changing the law isn't the Supreme Court's job, their job is interpretation. Abortion will be bannable in the US if and when the legislature makes it explicitly so, that's why personhood amendments have been drafted, so as to make the constitutional stance clear. If that doesn't happen, the court's not going to divert from precedent very far.

To be clear, if Barrett was a legislator, I guarantee she'd be fighting to ban abortion, because legislators do craft law based on their personal stances. She isn't, she's a judge, she has an obligation to the law as it exists.
Isn't the main reason abortions can take place that the supreme court rendered a decision in Roe V. Wade? That might not be the same as making an actual law, but it surely establishes what is and isn't possible under the law. Why can't the supreme court reverse the decision effectively rendering various anti-abortion laws that were rendered null and void viable once more?
The supreme court is far closer to a legislative body than a judicial one.
 

tstorm823

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The supreme court is far closer to a legislative body than a judicial one.
You see, it's not supposed to be. And the 6-3 "conservative" majority isn't a 6-3 Republican loyalty. "Conservative" in the judiciary is related to the "originalist" stance people in here are mocking, that 2/3s majority is people who do not intend to change constitutional law so long as the constitution remains unchanged.
 

dreng3

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You see, it's not supposed to be. And the 6-3 "conservative" majority isn't a 6-3 Republican loyalty. "Conservative" in the judiciary is related to the "originalist" stance people in here are mocking, that 2/3s majority is people who do not intend to change constitutional law so long as the constitution remains unchanged.
Yeah, it isn't supposed to be, but what is and what should be are different things. And at present the supreme court has been stacked with people who not only has no place being there for moral reasons, but also by at least one person whose spot was withheld from a more deserving person through underhanded means.

The law is dead, people are alive, the judiciary needs to consider whether an act was reasonable according to the law in relation to present events. Right to travel doesn't mean that everyone has a right to just buy a plane and fly around, because it would pose a great danger. Right to bear arms doesn't mean that everyone can go out and purchase, or even create, a nuke. Because it would pose a great danger.
Interpretation of law is the duty of the judiciary, even the intent of the law should be considered. The entire argument against abortion is that it is an act of murder, but it has been scientifically proven that we are, until a certain point in the pregnancy, merely dealing with tissue that has no brain function or nervous system. So what was an act of murder 200 years ago, because we didn't have the scientific knowledge, is no longer murder.
A court would need to consider such a thing, not just what the exact language was when the original document was created.

And I don't give a hoot about how many senators are willing to make constitutional changes until the senate actually represent the people and not empty swathes of land in the middle of the US. The idea of needing 2/3s only makes sense if it is representative of the population, but it isn't.
 

Seanchaidh

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If they fill the docket with impeachments, they'll have to come up with justifications for that as well. If their stated reason is to filibuster, that'll look even worse.
No, it won't actually look like they're just mad that Donald is screwing with their soft corruption overseas.

This would look any less party-political? The timing alone would make it transparent that the nomination was the deciding factor, resulting in everything I outlined above: immediate rejection by a majority of workers, abysmal optics.
Well, as long as you have a justification for never, ever fighting for the labor movement...

If they were, they didn't come up in the complaints themselves.
What.
 
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Seanchaidh

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You see, it's not supposed to be. And the 6-3 "conservative" majority isn't a 6-3 Republican loyalty. "Conservative" in the judiciary is related to the "originalist" stance people in here are mocking, that 2/3s majority is people who do not intend to change constitutional law so long as the constitution remains unchanged.
Originalism in practice is just a thin pretense to decide whatever the hell you want.
 
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Silvanus

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Yes, as a justification for changing the law. Changing the law isn't the Supreme Court's job, their job is interpretation.
Precedent shapes the law. The ad specifically condemned the Supreme Court's decision, indicating that Barrett felt they should have "interpreted" differently... and the stated reason she gave was based on personal moral outrage.

No, it won't actually look like they're just mad that Donald is screwing with their soft corruption overseas.
What plays well to you (and me, as it happens) is a far cry from what plays well with the American public. Repeated unsuccessful impeachments for the stated purpose of buying time would play exceptionally poorly.

Well, as long as you have a justification for never, ever fighting for the labor movement...
You know, they could fight for the labour movement through avenues that actually exist-- legislative ones. Which requires electoral victory.

If they tanked their electoral chances through a doomed call for a general strike along party lines, now that would be giving up any chance to enact change. And that would rightly be described as self-sabotage and empty gestural politicking.

Seanchaidh said:
Just what I said. The actual circumstances or details of the bills didn't come up, which leads me to think it's not about that. It was the very act of compromise which was unacceptable, until they refused to compromise, at which point the act of refusal became an act of betrayal.
 
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tstorm823

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And at present the supreme court has been stacked with people who not only has no place being there for moral reasons, but also by at least one person whose spot was withheld from a more deserving person through underhanded means.
This isn't a rational opinion. This is partisanship.

To edit this: the spot withheld was the first time since the 19th century that Republicans turned down a Supreme Court nominee. Nearly half of Republican Presidents in that time span had a nominee rejected. Republicans do it once, and everyone declares the end of democracy.
 
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Agema

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The same woman who just accepted her appointment while saying it's her job as justice to put aside her personal beliefs.
Pfah.

This isn't science where you do some experiments on objective reality and they say what they say. Every single justice goes up there and basically makes up law based on their personal beliefs. That's why court cases go 7-2, or 6-3, or 5-4. Interpretation of the law is a matter of personal belief, where different justices reading exactly the same source material can come to radically different conclusions. How else do we explain the gulf in opinions between justices like Clarence Thomas and Ruth Bader Ginsburg? Why do politicians stack the courts, if not to pick judges likely to rule in favour of their policy preferences?

There is virtually no way whatsoever that the beliefs of justices will not colour their legal interpretation: it's merely a question of "how much". Of course they all go up there and say they put aside their personal beliefs when they rule on the law. But they don't, and they won't. This intrinsically means that the stronger the belief of a justice in a policy, the higher the risk that it will influence their legal interpretation.
 

tstorm823

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Pfah.

This isn't science where you do some experiments on objective reality and they say what they say. Every single justice goes up there and basically makes up law based on their personal beliefs. That's why court cases go 7-2, or 6-3, or 5-4. Interpretation of the law is a matter of personal belief, where different justices reading exactly the same source material can come to radically different conclusions. How else do we explain the gulf in opinions between justices like Clarence Thomas and Ruth Bader Ginsburg? Why do politicians stack the courts, if not to pick judges likely to rule in favour of their policy preferences?

There is virtually no way whatsoever that the beliefs of justices will not colour their legal interpretation: it's merely a question of "how much". Of course they all go up there and say they put aside their personal beliefs when they rule on the law. But they don't, and they won't. This intrinsically means that the stronger the belief of a justice in a policy, the higher the risk that it will influence their legal interpretation.
That's a lot of words to admit your claims here are wholly unjustified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg believed the meaning of the Constitution adapted to the times without needing to be amended. Clarence Thomas doesn't. Their differing opinion on law lead to different decisions. That's not a difference in personal morality causing the rift.
 

dreng3

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This isn't a rational opinion. This is partisanship.

To edit this: the spot withheld was the first time since the 19th century that Republicans turned down a Supreme Court nominee. Nearly half of Republican Presidents in that time span had a nominee rejected. Republicans do it once, and everyone declares the end of democracy.
Huge difference between being told something along the lines of "We won't vote to confirm this candidate" or having an actual vote where the candidate isn't confirmed and Mitch refusing to do his goddamn job and hold a confirmation hearing just to seize a seat on the supreme court.
 

Iron

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Huge difference between being told something along the lines of "We won't vote to confirm this candidate" or having an actual vote where the candidate isn't confirmed and Mitch refusing to do his goddamn job and hold a confirmation hearing just to seize a seat on the supreme court.
Wouldn't have happened if she just won, it was her turn
 

dreng3

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Wouldn't have happened if she just won, it was her turn
The seat opened while Obama was president. The seat was held open through the refusal to vote on a confirmation. The seat was not for Clinton or anyu republic president.
 

Agema

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That's a lot of words to admit your claims here are wholly unjustified.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg believed the meaning of the Constitution adapted to the times without needing to be amended. Clarence Thomas doesn't. Their differing opinion on law lead to different decisions. That's not a difference in personal morality causing the rift.
If you think that there isn't a reason that virtually all Constitutional originalists are politically conservative and the conservative political scene pushes originalists, god help you. The US right enthusiastically took up originalism as a reaction to a generation of "politically liberal" SCOTUS rulings that they didn't like. As these neophyte right-wing lawyers started their careers, they will have been inspired to check out originalism by their conservative social circles, and seen this theory of law taught and practiced that told them all those rulings they hated were wrong. Of course many of them will have grasped at it.
 

Seanchaidh

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You know, they could fight for the labour movement through avenues that actually exist-- legislative ones. Which requires electoral victory.
They had a chance in 2009 to follow through on a campaign promise for the labor movement- card check- and didn't do any fucking thing.

What plays well to you (and me, as it happens) is a far cry from what plays well with the American public. Repeated unsuccessful impeachments for the stated purpose of buying time would play exceptionally poorly.
Donald Trump won the 2016 election while Mitch McConnell declined to have a vote on Merrick Garland for months. You're just saying this would be unpopular, and furthermore that it would be obvious when the reasoning is very flimsy indeed.
 
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Silvanus

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They had a chance in 2009 to follow through on a campaign promise for the labor movement- card check- and didn't do any fucking thing.
That's true. This is an argument to tank the election this time?

Donald Trump won the 2016 election while Mitch McConnell declined to have a vote on Merrick Garland for months. You're just saying this would be unpopular, and furthermore that it would be obvious when the reasoning is very flimsy indeed.
McConnell exercised a known function of his office which was utterly shitty and poorly justified, but used no extra time, allowed other Senatorial work to go ahead, and grabbed no headlines. The idea this would be viewed the same as endless failed impeachment proceedings for the stated purpose of wasting time in the run-up to an election is a bit silly.
 
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tstorm823

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Huge difference between being told something along the lines of "We won't vote to confirm this candidate" or having an actual vote where the candidate isn't confirmed and Mitch refusing to do his goddamn job and hold a confirmation hearing just to seize a seat on the supreme court.
No there isn't. The only difference is wasted time.
 

dreng3

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No there isn't. The only difference is wasted time.
The only difference is voting on confirmations is the job of the senate, and if someone refuses to bring it to a vote they aren't doing their job.
Voting against a confirmation is all good and well, that is the right of the senators, they need to represent their constituents(Though that system is still screwed by the massive imbalance in senators not being proportionate to state populations).
Refusing to hold a vote just because you know that some members of your own party, a party that actually said it would've been okay with the candidate, might vote to confirm is a betrayal of democratic values.
 

Seanchaidh

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McConnell exercised a known function of his office which was utterly shitty and poorly justified, but used no extra time, allowed other Senatorial work to go ahead, and grabbed no headlines. The idea this would be viewed the same as endless failed impeachment proceedings for the stated purpose of wasting time in the run-up to an election is a bit silly.
There are plenty of reasonable things to impeach members of the Trump administration for. For example: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/impeach-bill-barr.html

That's true. This is an argument to tank the election this time?
You just keep making this part up.
 
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Trunkage

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I mean, what I see is pure delusion. You personally suggest she's copying Iranian theocracy. Like, come on, man.
She’s only a cog in the theocratic wheel. Trump only being another small one. Neither of these two are controlling the cases that the Supreme Court sees.

Like, the US already has laws which protect discrimination against gay people based on religion. We just had a case about business owners not having to pay for contraception based on religion. Pence is pro-Billy Graham’s idea of the workplace. Excuse me for being concerned about religion getting rights it shouldn’t have based on Jefferson’s Wall. Becuase that’s now theocracy... making laws to benefit religious people and hurt others. Sure, not as bad as Iran but it’s already disgusting
 

tstorm823

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She’s only a cog in the theocratic wheel. Trump only being another small one. Neither of these two are controlling the cases that the Supreme Court sees.

Like, the US already has laws which protect discrimination against gay people based on religion. We just had a case about business owners not having to pay for contraception based on religion. Pence is pro-Billy Graham’s idea of the workplace. Excuse me for being concerned about religion getting rights it shouldn’t have based on Jefferson’s Wall. Becuase that’s now theocracy... making laws to benefit religious people and hurt others. Sure, not as bad as Iran but it’s already disgusting
Consider, for a moment, in a vacuum, the idea that employers are obligated to pay for contraception. Out of context, the connection is so tenuous, 20 years ago you would barely even be able to explain to someone why you thought that was a given. Even further than that, you think that if employers don't have to pay for contraception by federal law, then it's a disgusting theocracy. That is a million degrees of non sequitur. That is the sort of position you reach when you determine your viewpoint based on politics rather than the inverse. Like, before the ACA, no insurer in the US had to pay for contraceptives. Does that mean the partial mandate makes us more theocratic now? What's the reasoning here?