Ahmaud Arbery: Is this a strike against Citizen's Arrest, Gun Control, The Legal System, or All?

[Houseman]

It doesn't have to be wise. It's literally human instinct. Fight or flight.

So which do people choose when they are held up by muggers? Which do people choose when police have weapons drawn and are shouting orders?
Seems like "fight or flight" aren't the only options, or rather, "fight or flight" is not automatically invoked the second weapons come out.

 

[Houseman]

Y'all realize that "He took this action, because he felt he had no other choice, therefore the action that he took was entirely reasonable and justifiable" is the same argument that the police use when justifying their own actions, right?

"I feared for my life! I thought he was reaching for a weapon so I shot him. I had no choice!"
vs.
"I feared for my life! I rushed the guy with the shotgun and attempted to wrestle it out of his hands. I had no choice!"

See the similarities?

 

[SupahEwok]

I don't see how any mindset can justify "two armed men are several feet in front of me. I'm going to jog up to them and engage one of them in unarmed combat" as wise, but that's just my opinion.

You're being disenginous. Either hold to your own argument that it's not possible to know his mindset and stop judging what you are ignorant of, or acknowledge that we can make a damn fine guess, and that within that guess, trying to fight for your life is a reasonable action. You're trying to have it both ways, and I don't even know why. As a black man, I would have thought you knew the history in the American South of black men being accosted by armed whites, and being found later at the bottom of rivers.

 

[lil devils x]

Y'all realize that "He took this action, because he felt he had no other choice, therefore the action that he took was entirely reasonable and justifiable" is the same argument that the police use when justifying their own actions, right?

"I feared for my life! I thought he was reaching for a weapon so I shot him. I had no choice!"
vs.
"I feared for my life! I rushed the guy with the shotgun and attempted to wrestle it out of his hands. I had no choice!"

See the similarities?

Did you miss the part where they came up on him in the Truck like that? " Your money or your life" when they were not there for money..
Armed men coming up on you in a truck like that there and jumping out of the truck to attack you is known to induce a panic response. You EXPECT a person in that situation to have their fight or flight triggered:
"The fight-or-flight response, also known as the acute stress response, refers to a physiological reaction that occurs in the presence of something that is terrifying, either mentally or physically. The response is triggered by the release of hormones that prepare your body to either stay and deal with a threat or to run away to safety"

The Fight-or-Flight Response Prepares Your Body to Take Action

The fight-or-flight state is a physiological reaction that prepares our bodies to stay and fight or to flee. Learn what happens during a fight-or-flight response and why.

www.verywellmind.com

When you are terrified, you may not behave rationally, you just react by either freezing, fleeing or attacking whatever threat you perceive to be there. This isn't an action that you even think about, you just react and which response you have is not a choice you make.

For me, I too have the fight response. This is not something I have control over in the moment. Due to this response, I have hit a number of people in my life that I really did not want to. When my 4th grade teacher grabbed my shirt and was in my face, I unintentionally hit her. She was shocked of course because this is entirely out of character, but she also did not punish me in any way, as it was obvious it was natural uncontrollable response to being startled. I punched my sister for jump scaring me and almost broke her nose. Some people jump back and scream, I swing without even realizing it. I also hit my surgeon after surgery when I was waking up from anesthesia and they were too close to my face... This is actually very common among patients with the fight response. I feel horrible for all of those things happening, but it isn't like I can prevent it 100% of the time. I try to mitigate it, but it is more of a reflex than something you actually make a decision about.

As far as they are concerned however, there is NO self defense involved on their part when they are the ones hunting him down in a truck to attack him while he was minding his own business.

 

[lil devils x]

You're being disenginous. Either hold to your own argument that it's not possible to know his mindset and stop judging what you are ignorant of, or acknowledge that we can make a damn fine guess, and that within that guess, trying to fight for your life is a reasonable action. You're trying to have it both ways, and I don't even know why. As a black man, I would have thought you knew the history in the American South of black men being accosted by armed whites, and being found later at the bottom of rivers.

I have known people that were dragged from trucks here. There is no reasoning with armed good ol' boys coming up on you in a pick up truck like that. There is never any good that comes from it.

 

[Houseman]

Either hold to your own argument that it's not possible to know his mindset

My argument is that, regardless of the mindset, it's not a wise decision. It's never a wise decision. Period.

I can either take back what I said about the "that's only ever a good decision if you know his mindset" and just say "regardless of his mindset, it's not a wise decision", or, if you'd like, we can "acknowledge that we can make a damn fine guess", and we can try to guess at what his mindset is. Consider the following in my response to lil devils.

When you are terrified, you may not behave rationally, you just react by either freezing, fleeing or attacking whatever threat you perceive to be there. This isn't an action that you even think about, you just react.

For me, I too have the fight response. This is not something I have control over in the moment. Due to this response, I have hit a number of people in my life that I really did not want to. When my 4th grade teacher grabbed my shirt and was in my face, I unintentionally hit her. She was shocked of course because this is entirely out of character, but she also did not punish me in any way, as it was obvious it was natural uncontrollable response to being startled. I punched my sister for jump scaring me and almost broke her nose. Some people jump back and scream, I swing without even realizing it. I also hit my surgeon after surgery when I was waking up from anesthesia and they were too close to my face... This is actually very common among patients with the fight response. I feel horrible for all of those things happening, but it isn't like I can prevent it 100% of the time. I try to mitigate it, but it is more of a reflex than something you actually make a decision about.

And how long did this fight-or-flight reaction last? A second? Two?

If someone shouted "boo!" at you from 25 feet away, would your response compel you to run up to the person and clock them in the face, or would that give you enough time to think about your actions and reconsider? Based on the video, Ahmaud was running for quite a while before he got into fist-fighting range. I counted 20 seconds.

So, if you want to guess at his mental state in order to justify his actions, let's guess. Would you, thinking that your death is imminent, run at the people (who you think are going to cause your death) for 20 seconds in order to fight them off with your bare hands? Would you say that this is a "reasonable action" as Ewok calls it?

Again, because I feel these points have been ignored:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

 

[lil devils x]

My argument is that, regardless of the mindset, it's not a wise decision. It's never a wise decision. Period.

I can either take back what I said about the "that's only ever a good decision if you know his mindset" and just say "regardless of his mindset, it's not a wise decision", or, if you'd like, we can "acknowledge that we can make a damn fine guess", and we can try to guess at what his mindset is. Consider the following in my response to lil devils.



And how long did this fight-or-flight reaction last? A second? Two?

If someone shouted "boo!" at you from 25 feet away, would your response compel you to run up to the person and clock them in the face, or would that give you enough time to think about your actions and reconsider? Based on the video, Ahmaud was running for quite a while before he got into fist-fighting range. I counted 20 seconds.

So, if you want to guess at his mental state in order to justify his actions, let's guess. Would you, thinking that your death is imminent, run at the people (who you think are going to cause your death) for 20 seconds in order to fight them off with your bare hands? Would you say that this is a "reasonable action" as Ewok calls it?

Again, because I feel these points have been ignored:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

It depends on the situation and the person. I have had it last longer depending on how terrified I actually was. As I mentioned previously on our old forums, when two men in a red pick up truck came up on me while I was walking to work and tried to grab me and pull me into it, I fought for my life regardless of whether or not they are armed. They were trying to kidnap me and if I allowed them to get me into that truck I would likely not be seen again. My adrenaline did not go down for quite some time after. I do not even know all of what I did. I just remember flashes of it all happening all at once. When you are terrified like that, you do not think the way you normally would. If the threat is serious enough you fight and you do not stop fighting. There have been a few times in my life that is what saved me. When my ex's so called "buddy" from his football team called him up and told him to come over to his apartment and then he showed up at mine once my ex left and grabbed my wrists, pressed his body on mine and told me "I'm going to tickle until I pee'd my pants", I knew his intention was to rape me and although he was a huge body builder dude who later went on to play college football and I was a tiny 100lb petite female I manged to get my wrists away from him and hit him and didn't stop until I had him out the door. Yes I charged my attacker and by doing so I was able to get him away from me and stop it from happening. He managed to get his foot in the door while I was closing it but I still managed to keep fighting him to get him away from me. Rationally, if I had thought about it, he could have killed me with his bare hands, his arms were as big as my waist. but you don;t actually think about risk assessment when your fight or flight response is triggered. You have no idea how you will respond or what you are capable of until you are in a situation like that.

Yes, that is exactly what you do with the fight response. You DO charge your attacker. It is the flight response that you flee. We do not get to choose which response we have, it just happens in the moment. When men with guns come up like that, you are going to fear for your life, you do not think, you just respond with your defense mechanism, whichever one that may be.

And while yes, the majority of people do not rush at cops, it has happened, repeatedly, often to deadly consequences this is why police are supposed to be training in how to recognize it when it is happening both to themselves and to others:

Responding with fight or flight

The fight or flight syndrome or, 'fight or flight reflex', happens when a person experiences drastic bodily changes when presented with a threat. It is important that those in...

www.officer.com

People who have the fight response ARE the ones who usually do not comply to muggers demands.

Man, 77, fights off would-be robber with boxing jabs in United Kingdom

Surveillance video shows a 77-year-old man fighting off a would-be robber in the United Kingdom.

abc7.com

Any one of those people could have died by fighting the robber, but they did it anyhow because it is their natural reaction to do so.
The police often do dismiss it when people do not behave as they expect, but that does not change the fact that this is a serious issue, and also makes the case for the majority of police to not have guns as they are unarmed in many other nations so they are not perceived as the threat.

 

[Houseman]

...and grabbed my wrists... yes I charged my attacker

If he grabbed your wrists, I don't think that can be considered "charging" him.

Sorry, but your personal experiences do not convince me that the fight or flight response would compel someone to run, for 20 seconds, at their attackers.

And also, once more:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

 

[Agema]

Normally, as above, I see asking for new laws when existing laws are being ignored as a dodge of responsibility. A diversion that has people talking about new laws rather than do their responsibilities under existing laws but that isn't a half bad idea. It may even be the law now. See below.

I find it hard to keep up with all the US jurisdictions. I'm sure plenty are fine and if the laws are adequate, they just need to be properly enforced.

I thought the Martin - Zimmerman case was a problem. Zimmerman initiated that confrontation on very weak grounds whilst armed. We'll never really know what happened, and Martin may well have been unnecessarily aggressive and just decided to attack Zimmerman without good reason. However, I just don't really accept citizens should be allowed free rein to potentially incite conflict without the best of reasons, particularly when they've taken weapons with them.

 

[lil devils x]

If he grabbed your wrists, I don't think that can be considered "charging" him.

Sorry, but your personal experiences do not convince me that the fight or flight response would compel someone to run, for 20 seconds, at their attackers.

And also, once more:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

What was the next sentence after that? From above: "I manged to get my wrists away from him and hit him and didn't stop until I had him out the door."
It took much longer than 20 seconds. In order for me to get him out the door, I had to first knock him off balance by pushing him hard backwards, and then yes, charge him and keep pushing until he was all the way out. That is how that works. The information provided above should convince you however. The guy chasing the robber who was armed with a gun with the machete chased him longer than 20 seconds. He could have been shot at any time.

The fight response being less common than the freeze and flight response does not suddenly discount it happening. I already provided you links above to show you that "usually" does not apply to everyone thus why it is important that police officers are trained to recognize it. Why do you think I posted the link to the police site? The medical information on it? The videos of numerous people responding to armed men this way? The police are supposed to be trained to recognize it, Physicians are trained to recognize it, teachers are trained to recognize it, why do you act like it isn't a common issue?

 

[Agema]

I don't see how any mindset can justify "two armed men are several feet in front of me. I'm going to jog up to them and engage one of them in unarmed combat" as wise, but that's just my opinion.

I think the problem is that the mindset is likely to be a panicked "Holy fucking shit what do I do AAAH!", which is not ideal for calm reflection on actions and consequences.

 

[lil devils x]

I think the problem is that the mindset is likely to be a panicked "Holy fucking shit what do I do AAAH!", which is not ideal for calm reflection on actions and consequences.

That is just the thing though with the fight response, you don't even think " What do I do?" " What do I do?" Most of the time isn't in the picture, it is more of instantly having an overwhelming uncontrollable feeling of " kill this thing attacking me" to make it stop no matter what it is or whether or that is even possible. It is just a reaction, more like rage rather than just being scared. It triggers angry emotions instead of just being afraid but having your emotions all existing at once mixed up together. Being terrified like that means you can't even think what to do, you just react in the moment. What you actually do during that can be pretty wild and unpredictable and you are likely to use anything and everything to protect yourself.

 

[Houseman]

The guy chasing the robber who was armed with a gun with the machete chased him longer than 20 seconds.

*looks up the video*

I counted 10 seconds.

Also, you're assuming that his fight or flight response kicked in. Did it? How do we know? Are we just assuming every incident that involves a deadly weapon triggers a fight or flight response? If so:

- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

Why do you think I posted the link to the police site?

What police site?
*refreshes*

Oh, okay, you edited your earlier post. I haven't seen any that before just now. Let me look back and review.

People who have the fight response

You seem to be think that some people are "wired" for the fight response, and others are just wired for the "flight" response, is that correct?
You seem to be saying "I'm a fighter, not a 'flighter', that's why I've fought off all those other guys" right?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that people are one or the other. It's just ONE response that increases your body's capabilities with the goal of survival. That's what all your links say.

why do you act like it isn't a common issue?

Because:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

 

[lil devils x]

*looks up the video*

I counted 10 seconds.

Also, you're assuming that his fight or flight response kicked in. Did it? How do we know? Are we just assuming every incident that involves a deadly weapon triggers a fight or flight response? If so:

- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.



What police site?
*refreshes*

Oh, okay, you edited your earlier post. I haven't seen any that before just now. Let me look back and review.



You seem to be think that some people are "wired" for the fight response, and others are just wired for the "flight" response, is that correct?
You seem to be saying "I'm a fighter, not a 'flighter', that's why I've fought off all those other guys" right?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that people are one or the other. It's just ONE response that increases your body's capabilities with the goal of survival. That's what all your links say.



Because:
- People don't usually rush at cops when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- People don't usually get into fist-fights with muggers when they have their weapons drawn. People usually comply.
- "I had no choice, I feared for my life!" is the kind of argument that you'd dismiss when the police say it.

If you think that is all it is saying here, then you are either not understanding the information being provided or not reading it.

"Canon made some unique observations about the connection between bodily functions in extreme emotions. "

" Fight or flight initiates in an area of the brain that is mediated by primitive or instinctual thoughts and emotions. The brain goes about its business in a normal manner until a novel stimulus is presented. This stimulus goes from the sensory cortex and eventually the brain stem. When a person is faced with a perceived life-threatening crisis, certain bodily functions are attenuated while others temporarily cease. "

"This response also alters perception. Officers can experience tunnel vision, where the focus is on the perceived threat; and visual acuity, where some things are seen with unusual clarity. Officers experience slow motion time or time distortion, and often a sense of disassociation or detachment. Some have reported automatic responses to certain things, memory loss and brief periods of false memory. "

"The fight or flight syndrome is mediated by an officer's perception. That is, what one person may perceive as a threat, another may see as a routine incident. An excited neighbor who gets in the face of an experienced brawler may get a "ho hum" response. If the same excited neighbor gets in the face of someone unfamiliar with butting heads, the response may differ."

Responding with fight or flight

The fight or flight syndrome or, 'fight or flight reflex', happens when a person experiences drastic bodily changes when presented with a threat. It is important that those in...

www.officer.com

Maybe the wording here will help:
" This is not a planned, deliberately thought-out reaction, but a rapid-fire, automatic, total body response that we share with other animals. "

Creating PRESENCE – by Dr. Sandra Bloom

sanctuaryweb.com

This is a rapid fire automatic response, not unlike the charging bull when it feels threatened. You can train yourself to have better control by repetition and knowing what to expect, but that does not mean it will always be effective. It is not something that you think about, or choose. I showed you videos of people attacking their muggers because you think that is somehow unusual, when it is actually pretty common.

In addition, People, in general are socially conditioned to comply with police, however, these attackers were not police. EVEN in the case of police, it is still common for people to have fight or flight kick in and either run or fight back, as often happen when officers try to get physical with people who otherwise have no history of violence. Including women, elderly and children have behaved in a protective manner when being physically confronted by police if the officers grab them, pull on them, or are screaming in their faces. Officers should be utilizing their deescalation training rather than behaving in an aggressive manner intentionally triggering a persons Fight or flight response.

We are just going in circles at this point. I have provided ample evidence showing you that this is a common, expected response that officers and medical providers are trained to recognize and address. You not wanting to recognize that and repeating yourself is not going to somehow change that this is in fact a well know issue.

Trying to blame the victim for being shot because his fight or flight response is different than yours isn't really making a case here. Armed men hunted this man down and murdered him in cold blood in the middle of the street in broad daylight. Trying to claim that him fighting for his life to defend himself should not have happened because " people do not usually do that" isn't going to change that it happens more frequently than you seem to realize.

 

[Houseman]

This is a rapid fire automatic response, not unlike the charging bull when it feels threatened. You can train yourself to have better control by repetition and knowing what to expect, but that does not mean it will always be effective. It is not something that you think about, or choose.

I'm aware of all this. What is your point?

I showed you videos of people attacking their muggers because you think that is somehow unusual, when it is actually pretty common.

What do you mean by "common"?
Let's put it this way. What percentage of people, do you think, comply during a armed mugging or when police draw weapons? What percentage have a "fight" response?

 

[lil devils x]

You seem to be think that some people are "wired" for the fight response, and others are just wired for the "flight" response, is that correct?
You seem to be saying "I'm a fighter, not a 'flighter', that's why I've fought off all those other guys" right?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that people are one or the other. It's just ONE response that increases your body's capabilities with the goal of survival. That's what all your links say.

"This “fight or flight” reaction means we are wired to either run away or fight off a threat. Mass shootings, airport bombings and other violent events have people pondering their own ability to survive these adrenaline-filled moments."

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...anger-are-you-wired-to-fight-or-take-flight/r

Usually people are " wired" one way or the other, and may have different reactions to different stimuli. It is possible to help retrain this response, as was addressed in the police link above, but that is more of a suppression of your natural instincts rather than completely changing it, it usually doesn't change your initial feeling.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Citizen's arrest is a necessary component of the law enforcement system in order to allow members of the public to intervene in crimes in progress and apprehend offenders at large. However, it needs to be restricted to cases where there are reasonable grounds to identify a person as having committed an offence. The issue in this case was that the murderers' judgement of whether Ahmaud Arbery was likely to be guilty of an offence was compromised by racism. Their decision to shoot him was also motivated by racism. This is a very open and shut case demonstrating why racist people cannot be allowed to own guns. If a person is likely to have heavily impaired judgement in regards to whether it is suitable for them to use a deadly weapon on another person, they shouldn't have the deadly weapon. If they hadn't been armed, they may still have assaulted Arbery, but there is a much higher chance he would have survived.

If citizen's arrest was a necessary component of the law enforcement system it would be in place in every state.

It is not.

I think there's 30 something states that have citizens arrest laws, but the states that don't aren't exactly suffering from not having it.

 

[lil devils x]

I'm aware of all this. What is your point?



What do you mean by "common"?
Let's put it this way. What percentage of people, do you think, comply during a armed mugging or when police draw weapons? What percentage have a "fight" response?

We do not have data on what percentages of the population fight, freeze or flee, so any assessment as to what is the most common would be pure speculation.
It is difficult to do a controlled study because they would be expecting it to happen, thus altering the results. You claiming it is unusual however, is contradictory to the data we do have from the accounts of people who have experienced traumatic events. The accounts of soldiers, police, and even domestic violence victims all have confirmed this to be a common occurrence.

 

[lil devils x]

If citizen's arrest was a necessary component of the law enforcement system it would be in place in every state.

It is not.

I think there's 30 something states that have citizens arrest laws, but the states that don't aren't exactly suffering from not having it.

I thought even in states that have citizens arrests laws would never have allowed for armed men in a truck to chase an unarmed pedestrian down in the street and kill him.

 

[Houseman]

"This “fight or flight” reaction means we are wired to either run away or fight off a threat. Mass shootings, airport bombings and other violent events have people pondering their own ability to survive these adrenaline-filled moments."

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...anger-are-you-wired-to-fight-or-take-flight/r

Usually people are " wired" one way or the other

I don't think that quote or that article is trying to say "people are wired for fight, or else they are wired for flight", as you suggest. Rather, it's using "either...or" two present two actions a person can take. A single person can take either of those actions depending on the scenario.

There's no evidence to suggest some people are "wired" to be fighters while others are "wired" to fly. If what you say is true, you should be able to find a source that makes this clear in unambiguous language. That article even criticizes the binary phrasing of the mechanism.

You claiming it is unusual however, is contradictory to the data we do have from the accounts of people who have experienced traumatic events.

What "data"? A handful of viral videos of shopkeepers fighting off armed robbers? That's not data. The plural of anecdote is not data.