Total War: Warhammer 3 Announced. Releasing Late 2021.

SckizoBoy

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Arguably, more original stuff the better IMO. Helps flesh out the WFB setting, even if GW left it to oblivion so it could hawk Age of Sigmar.
Indeed, so much this. GW have an unfortunate proven record for abandoning story concepts left right and centre. Thankfully, they've gotten past the bad old days of screwing up their own games, but they still can't write a coherent story for shit.

I'm personally sick of the Evil side being all Powerful angle.
I feel you're playing the wrong set of games if that's how you feel (not a criticism, it's just a game-franchise after all) as both 40K & WHFB are set up that the good is always under threat of destruction by (epic trailer voice) powers beyond their comprehension and hence my "crapsack world, so crapsack mentality" quip.

It's everywhere. So many people complain if the humans/"good" side has some strength, but will love how much more powerful the 'evil' side gets. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of the Chaos Marines (for example) be considered by many players "Space Marines but better" because of Ruinous Powers and what not.
Are Chaos Marines better these days? I haven't kept up with the meta in so long, but with the latest edition, I thought Space Marines were OP AF (they perennially get new stuff to the detriment of most other factions/races from what I can tell).

Out of interest, what other games do you play? I play Warmachine & Hordes and it feels the power balance within that setting is a lot better. Their equivalent of the Chaos Invasion (closest analogue, even if it's wrong on several counts) recently kicked off but everything is treated with a great deal more abstraction. I don't consider the Infernals (the Chaos equivalent) to be evil, but rather arbitrary and perfunctory to a fault (they're paranoid entrepreneurs at their core) and the actual evil faction (necromancer-pirates) have thrown in with the "good" guys.

I always pick Humans. Any game I play, I play Humans or human-offshoots. Playing other races makes me feel like those rebellious people in high school that dyes their hair to be edgy and stand out. Everyone do what they do to have fun. Be other races. It's just not for me. But it gets tired that they are always made to be not as unified or as powerful as the obviously ruinous side.
Powerful, I can get, but rarely unified. Even so, what about blatantly evil human factions (Warriors of Chaos/Chaos Marines are corrupted humans/human off-shoots, too, right?)? Nevertheless, the problem with an overtly powerful 'good' side is the natural conclusion: peace. That's never a good hook for a miniatures skirmish or battalion game. I think it all feeds into player agency and power fantasies, the brave defenders vs maniacal pillagers or what have you, and the archetypes are strewn all over high fantasy fiction with the difference that, as a tabletop game system, the status quo has to be perpetuated for the good of the game's life expectancy (why else has 40K been stuck in time pretty much ever since inception?). Once the good side becomes perceived to be powerful enough to be on equal footing vs the evil side, the balance of power instantly becomes skewed in the eyes of the players as the end is in sight, story-wise and this is a status quo that is tremendously difficult to maintain. Most people IRL subscribe to the idea that good should win, but here, that's not a good business strategy as evil still needs a stake in the fight to sell. Thus, the compromise is a setting in which "evil is winning, but can't win" (as opposed to "good is winning, so why bother") giving rise to good factions whose strength is generally in the ethos of the brave few and the strength of the individual as opposed to the whole. Evil outright winning leads to such marvelous clusterfucks as End Times (which is picture definition of what happens when a game's story is written for almost purely business reasons).
 

Terminal Blue

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It's everywhere. So many people complain if the humans/"good" side has some strength, but will love how much more powerful the 'evil' side gets.
I think it's more common in traditional fantasy for the heroes to be underdogs fighting against an enemy who outmatches them and who they have to pull out all the stops to defeat, rather than one whom they already outmatch.

If anything though, I would say that Warhammer Fantasy is a rare example of the reverse. The Empire in particular are not the underdogs, they're very much in the ascendant. They're the status quo everyone else is trying to undo. They're also good at everything. They have actual universities to train powerful wizards. They have advanced technology and artillery like the dwarves. They have amazing knights and, more importantly, they have huge numbers of all these things. Other factions may excel at one thing, but the empire excels at everything.

Chaos in Warhammer fantasy are a bunch of tribal barbarians who live in the frozen tundra, smelly goat people who hide in the forests and harass peasants and daemons who can only do anything under the right weather conditions. They are the underdogs almost all of the time. The fact that they constantly fight each other just makes everything worse.

Once every few generations, chaos becomes a threat. Maybe there's a big storm and daemons can start doing things, maybe there's a powerful warlord who unites the various tribes under one banner. At these moments chaos becomes an existential threat to the world. Warhammer: Total War takes place during one of these times (canonically, the one in which Chaos actually succeeded). But it's important to remember that even taking into account these big events, the Empire's win loss ratio is 12 to 1. That's how dominant the Empire is.

Heck, the reason Warhammer 3 is so focused on chaos is because chaos currently really sucks to play, because they're done in a lore-friendly way that completely gimps them. They don't hold settlements or territory (excpet for Norsca, and even then they're very limited). They can't because their Gods are useless outside of the realm of chaos. The only thing they can do is try and burn the world down, and inevitably get squished by better organised factions who can actually hold the territory they conquer.
 
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Thaluikhain

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Erm, going to disagree there. Ok, for status quo reasons they have/had to not destroy the Empire until recently, but it was always under threat of annihilation in the next big attack of chaos. Massive chaos attacks are rare, the last being some 200 years ago, and that resulted in a huge shake up of the (then) status quo. Now for those 200 years, the Empire was going pretty well, granted. The contemporary chaos attack kept getting retconned, but in various versions it basically wiped out several provinces and key Empire/Kislev cities, and the Grand Theogonist, IIRC.

The High Elves, being high elves, are explicitly in decline as well, because elves are like that.
 

ObsidianJones

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I feel you're playing the wrong set of games if that's how you feel (not a criticism, it's just a game-franchise after all) as both 40K & WHFB are set up that the good is always under threat of destruction by (epic trailer voice) powers beyond their comprehension and hence my "crapsack world, so crapsack mentality" quip.
The Evil all powerful thing is a general state of fiction, not pointed towards Warhammer as a whole. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find "Good" in Warhammer 40k.

The Imperium of Man sacrifices thousands of souls to the Emperor every day (I always wondered how they figured that out), Exterminatus could be called on a planet for someone mentioning the Ruinous Powers,

Hell, the Smurfs are the closest you get to 'Good' guys. And they sterilize humans that side with them and use them for cannon fodder.

What I mean is that I get tired of the strictly evil (being born of Dark Gods counts) in fiction always given the leg up and that's fine, but make a 'protagonist' group near it and people go crazy.

I don't even have time to count the conversations I had with just the Warhammer Video games. When I pointed out it's BS that they are always shown as Chaos United or on another Black Crusade when it's supposed to be really fricking rare. But if you go with the games, it happens as regularly as Tuesday.

Blood Letters with Great Unclean Ones. Plague Marines with Blood Crushers. A Chaos Sorcerer leading ANYTHING that is spawned by Nurgle.

And no one seems to care because Chaos is the coolest because they are Teh EVULZ!!!! Bored with that.

Powerful, I can get, but rarely unified. Even so, what about blatantly evil human factions (Warriors of Chaos/Chaos Marines are corrupted humans/human off-shoots, too, right?)? Nevertheless, the problem with an overtly powerful 'good' side is the natural conclusion: peace. That's never a good hook for a miniatures skirmish or battalion game. I think it all feeds into player agency and power fantasies, the brave defenders vs maniacal pillagers or what have you, and the archetypes are strewn all over high fantasy fiction with the difference that, as a tabletop game system, the status quo has to be perpetuated for the good of the game's life expectancy (why else has 40K been stuck in time pretty much ever since inception?). Once the good side becomes perceived to be powerful enough to be on equal footing vs the evil side, the balance of power instantly becomes skewed in the eyes of the players as the end is in sight, story-wise and this is a status quo that is tremendously difficult to maintain. Most people IRL subscribe to the idea that good should win, but here, that's not a good business strategy as evil still needs a stake in the fight to sell. Thus, the compromise is a setting in which "evil is winning, but can't win" (as opposed to "good is winning, so why bother") giving rise to good factions whose strength is generally in the ethos of the brave few and the strength of the individual as opposed to the whole. Evil outright winning leads to such marvelous clusterfucks as End Times (which is picture definition of what happens when a game's story is written for almost purely business reasons).
My issue of Evil being Uber will also stretch to Evil Humans.

It's like this. Just think about fiction as a whole. Jedis vs Sith. Have you see some of the crazy stuff the Dark Side can pull off? Black Holes. A Sith can pull off Black Holes. And I remember when Electric Judgment was shown and Sith fanboys going nuts. A JEDI SHOULDN'T HAVE THAT, THEY AREN'T AS POWERFUL AS THE SITH.


And while I get your point in theory, really having two equal sides makes more sense for an equal never ending war than one side weaker than the other. Put it this way. America vs North Korea. I'm sure North Korea can bloody the nose of America, but a prolonged Millennia long war? No. But that's what's happening. Only one Primarch to speak of on the Imperium, but most of the Daemon Princes? Magic. The ability to take a psyker and corrupt an entire planet? Companies of Loyalist falling to the Ruinous Powers? It gets... tiring after a while. Three decades of my life, the Imperium has been on the back foot and it only gets bleaker. I get some people find this thrilling. I find it tiring. I find it stagnant.

Yeah, Primaris Marines might have been a good addition, but the ass pull way they were created makes me just wonder what the hell they were on when they were pitched.

I think it's more common in traditional fantasy for the heroes to be underdogs fighting against an enemy who outmatches them and who they have to pull out all the stops to defeat, rather than one whom they already outmatch.

If anything though, I would say that Warhammer Fantasy is a rare example of the reverse. The Empire in particular are not the underdogs, they're very much in the ascendant. They're the status quo everyone else is trying to undo. They're also good at everything. They have actual universities to train powerful wizards. They have advanced technology and artillery like the dwarves. They have amazing knights and, more importantly, they have huge numbers of all these things. Other factions may excel at one thing, but the empire excels at everything.

Chaos in Warhammer fantasy are a bunch of tribal barbarians who live in the frozen tundra, smelly goat people who hide in the forests and harass peasants and daemons who can only do anything under the right weather conditions. They are the underdogs almost all of the time. The fact that they constantly fight each other just makes everything worse.

Once every few generations, chaos becomes a threat. Maybe there's a big storm and daemons can start doing things, maybe there's a powerful warlord who unites the various tribes under one banner. At these moments chaos becomes an existential threat to the world. Warhammer: Total War takes place during one of these times (canonically, the one in which Chaos actually succeeded). But it's important to remember that even taking into account these big events, the Empire's win loss ratio is 12 to 1. That's how dominant the Empire is.

Heck, the reason Warhammer 3 is so focused on chaos is because chaos currently really sucks to play, because they're done in a lore-friendly way that completely gimps them. They don't hold settlements or territory (excpet for Norsca, and even then they're very limited). They can't because their Gods are useless outside of the realm of chaos. The only thing they can do is try and burn the world down, and inevitably get squished by better organised factions who can actually hold the territory they conquer.
I'm not understanding. My point is people complain when the 'good' side has so much power. As you point out, they are a great jack of all trades.

And people complain.

A. Lot.


Yeah, I'm tired of Evil getting all the love. But more importantly, I'm tired of the few examples (like Warhammer) where the 'good' side is kicking some ass, and some people can't stand it.
 

Thaluikhain

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I don't even have time to count the conversations I had with just the Warhammer Video games. When I pointed out it's BS that they are always shown as Chaos United or on another Black Crusade when it's supposed to be really fricking rare. But if you go with the games, it happens as regularly as Tuesday.
In some fluff, that's true of Skaven, that they are only really like traditional skaven at rare times when they've had a population explosion, their society is in turmoil, and they need to expand their holdings or everyone starves to death. Life is cheap because there's too many of them to support. They never really went with this idea, of course, because it limits the skaven's activities to certain periods, and possibly because it's cool and they don't like nice things.

And while I get your point in theory, really having two equal sides makes more sense for an equal never ending war than one side weaker than the other. Put it this way. America vs North Korea. I'm sure North Korea can bloody the nose of America, but a prolonged Millennia long war? No. But that's what's happening. Only one Primarch to speak of on the Imperium, but most of the Daemon Princes? Magic. The ability to take a psyker and corrupt an entire planet? Companies of Loyalist falling to the Ruinous Powers? It gets... tiring after a while. Three decades of my life, the Imperium has been on the back foot and it only gets bleaker. I get some people find this thrilling. I find it tiring. I find it stagnant.
Disagree there. Chaos is ultimately going to destroy everything (at least before the nids showed up and they rectonned necrons in), but not just yet. Daemon Princes are nasty, but you don't need to be a primarch to stop one. Planets are lost all the time, and new ones settled or rediscovered all the time as well.

Now, there's been serious problems with 40k (and warhammer) fluff for ages, but I'd not say that was one of them.
 

SckizoBoy

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See, I think it's primarily an in-world ideology thing and the need to continue to the fight. At this point, I'm willing to let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That said...

And people complain.

A. Lot.
Ordertide? That's a really weird thing to complain about (not you specifically) and I don't think that has anything to do with the setting's dynamic and more limitations on lategame AI behaviour & cheat programming on CA's part. Realistically, the Ordertide is more of a pain in the butt for Order factions due to the inevitable clusterfuck that goes down when declaring war on erstwhile allies. This complaint is less about a faction of Order being OP, but that the AI programming is both faulty and predictable (on the flipside, play as any Old World faction and you'll hear complaints about Dark Elves being OP because they invariably boss Ulthuan pretty quickly, or how Malekith is an utter buffoon because he gets trashed by the Chaos Invasion). Meanwhile, there is literally zero complaint about High Elves being genuinely, the most powerful race in game, especially if you play as Nagarythe (Stalk stance... with Ancient Cunning... with followers that boost ambush success chance... on a fucking spell nerd?!) or even Yvresse (Mistwalkers, despite being unit capped, are really strong). On the human front, Empire in the player's hands is a very strong race with a super diverse roster and plentiful lores of magic to utilise (for the longest time, they had the most), and debatably the best set of artillery in the game (recruit lord, recruit a nice balance of Helstorms/Helblasters, sprinkle in some heroes and Handgunners, await Chaos Invasion, watch Invasion get blasted into oblivion... profit). Bretonnia would be a strong contender for strongest race in the faction if it weren't for their agonising replenishment rates (Fae notwithstanding), as they have a straightforward and flavourful economy, excellent cav at all stages of the game and access to the best uncapped multi-entity monstrous unit in the game (if only they had a reminder system for Vows, though).

Now, were we to complain about the inherent weaknesses of Warriors of Chaos, Norsca and Beastmen in the player's hands, we'd be having a discussion (AI ruin dwelling is a common issue and makes the campaign a grind more than anything else, while 5 build slots maximum is such a kick in the balls). As player led factions on higher campaign difficulties, WoC/BM/Norsca are piss weak and it is commonly considered that the AI led Chaos Invasion in Mortal Empires is somewhere between a pointless grind/a joke and conquering Norsca is a ballache at the best of times (unless you're Skaven, but that's not the issue here). AI cheats are a factor of the game and many are the complaints from Karaz-a-Karak players (doesn't matter which LL you start as) about the endless waves of Greenskins. Same for Imrik and AI Snikch/Grimgor deciding he's bored of Dawi bashing being utter pricks. Forgive me, but I don't quite get what the context is of your complaint because from my perspective, in TW:WH2, if anything the Chaos aligned factions need treatment to make them a better experience, whether they're a player led faction or an AI led faction. Empire being OP is not the complaint, I feel, as it is (perspective, once again) Empire being consistently and needlessly powerful on the campaign.

As for the lore of the setting itself, WHFB is well known for "good" characters taking a lot of names (the contrast between High Elves & Eldar is pretty stark in terms of named character heroism), but again, evil needs to be continually pervasive so that there's reason/excuse to maintain the setting. Look at Storm of Chaos and you'll see what people really wanted and it's essentially your point flipped. Chaos was supposed make a grand entrance and waltz all the way to Altdorf, but kept getting curbstomped in the public campaign, so players got pissed when GW let Chaos repeatedly do a sneaky. *shrug
 

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While I won’t play this, I kind of hope the guys that do Text to Speech Device do like a Let’s Play where Kitten and Magnus play it in character, with The Mother Fucking Emperor interjecting occasionally.
 

SilentPony

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Okay I hadn't heard of Cathy before this, and apparently its just some old piece of lore that's definitely not just China, India and Japan. And Reddit is filled with the usual neckbeards crying that its Chinese pandering to have...magical Ice Vikings fighting Hellish plague monsters. Because when I think mystical Norse mythology fighting Christian Hell daemons I think Chinese propaganda.
 
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Samtemdo8

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Okay I hadn't heard of Cathy before this, and apparently its just some old piece of lore that's definitely not just China, India and Japan. And Reddit is filled with the usual neckbeards crying that its Chinese pandering to have...magical Ice Vikings fighting Hellish plague monsters. Because when I think mystical Norse mythology fighting Christian Hell daemons I think Chinese propaganda.
1. Cathay is just China. Ind is India, and Nippon is Japan.

2. Its not Ice Vikings, its Medieval Fantasy Russians. Kislev.

3. I called it that people will think this is CA appealing to China. Then again you also have to factor they offer their FAQs with either in English or in Chinese, no other language. And NetEase is making Mobile spin off of Warhammer Total War.
 

Terminal Blue

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And people complain.

A. Lot.
This seems to be less a lore complaint and more a gameplay complaint, and it's one I absolutely agree with and really hope that the third game will address. The game's mechanics and AI are ludicrously biased towards creating a basically invincible blob of super powerful humans and dwarves, and it makes the experience of playing anyone who isn't those factions kind of miserable because you either have to beeline them to kill them off before they hit full power or just accept a gruelling uphill struggle. Conversely, it also makes AI chaos kind of a dud most of the time, as they don't pose a threat to the human and dwarf AI and inevitably just get crushed.

And yes, you could justify this by pointing out how it's pretty lore friendly. The Empire is meant to be very powerful and it makes sense for the order races to be more cooperative. But at the end of the day, this isn't EU4. The different factions are all meant to be vaguely competitive and balanced.

Okay I hadn't heard of Cathy before this, and apparently its just some old piece of lore that's definitely not just China, India and Japan. And Reddit is filled with the usual neckbeards crying that its Chinese pandering to have...magical Ice Vikings fighting Hellish plague monsters. Because when I think mystical Norse mythology fighting Christian Hell daemons I think Chinese propaganda.
Cathay, Nippon and Ind have been a part of Warhammer lore for ages, but have never really been touched on in any detail save existing on maps. They are very clear 1/1s of real historical cultures because that's literally Warhammer. Every human culture, and quite a few non-human cultures, borrow some aspect of the history of their real-life counterparts.

As for the "Chinese propaganda" crowd. I can fully accept that part of the reason Cathay is being focused on is to make the game more appealing in Chinese markets. Three Kingdoms was the best selling Total War game ever in large part because did so well in China and Korea, and it wouldn't really be surprising for CA to want to bring that audience over into the Warhammer Fantasy games. That's just the reality we live in.

My main concern is that it could very easily backfire. Mulan (2020) absolutely bombed in China despite Disney explicitly tailoring it for Chinese audiences. Chinese audiences, it turns out, ultimately expect more than "representation", they expect a degree of authenticity and are sensitive to the cultural odour of stereotypical western perspectives on Chinese history. Cathay, like most nations in Warhammer, is literally a bunch of stereotypes, and in fact deviating significantly from that would make it slightly incongruous with the setting. Warhammer as a setting is so culturally loaded that I'm not sure how accessible it will be in countries where people don't necessarily have the same cultural reference points.

I mean, if we wanna talk about Chinese propaganda and uncomfortable stuff, I think it's very unfortunate that the ogre kingdoms are coded as Turkic or Mongol and are inhuman bloodthirsty monsters who are the natural enemies of Cathay. It probably seemed a lot more fun back when the real life communities they are based on were not the targets of deliberate campaigns of persecution and ethnic cleansing by the Chinese government.
 

SilentPony

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I didn't even think this game could get a Chinese release. Part of the Chinese censorship of incoming media specifically states that magic, spells, monsters and demons and trappings of Western Feudal superstitions are not allowed. And I'm sure the Warhammer Fantasy world falls into that category
 

Terminal Blue

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I didn't even think this game could get a Chinese release. Part of the Chinese censorship of incoming media specifically states that magic, spells, monsters and demons and trappings of Western Feudal superstitions are not allowed. And I'm sure the Warhammer Fantasy world falls into that category
It's definitely getting a Chinese release. In fact, you can preorder it in China now and it's apparently selling extremely well. Whether that translates into a successful release is another matter but it will definitely get a release barring something major.

Chinese censorship laws are infamously vague and open to the interpretation of censors. The law to which you're referring actually forbids the promotion of "cults or superstitions". Chinese media routinely features magic and monsters, including in video games. The reason some foreign games have been censored of this kind of content is mostly because publishers are under a lot of pressure to get games out fast in China once they've released elsewhere, and they will sometimes remove content (often in baffling ways) just to try and ensure a game gets past the censors quickly.
 

SckizoBoy

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I didn't even think this game could get a Chinese release. Part of the Chinese censorship of incoming media specifically states that magic, spells, monsters and demons and trappings of Western Feudal superstitions are not allowed. And I'm sure the Warhammer Fantasy world falls into that category
Chinese cinema is filled with hokey that's often ripped from western traditions, so I can see the government backed censors doing the usual cherry picking here.


This seems to be less a lore complaint and more a gameplay complaint, and it's one I absolutely agree with and really hope that the third game will address. The game's mechanics and AI are ludicrously biased towards creating a basically invincible blob of super powerful humans and dwarves, and it makes the experience of playing anyone who isn't those factions kind of miserable because you either have to beeline them to kill them off before they hit full power or just accept a gruelling uphill struggle. Conversely, it also makes AI chaos kind of a dud most of the time, as they don't pose a threat to the human and dwarf AI and inevitably just get crushed.
While I agree with your point in general, I disagree with the specifics of the humans/dwarfs being the main culprits (the Ordertide is much less of a thing now post-Grim/Grom update, I've found). AI Skaven is one of the most annoying things to deal with as a player, early game, and late game if you don't have "ambush resistant" armies (Stalk is such a powerful mechanic it can be considered NPE on VH/L if you don't prepare for it, and preparing for it means playing a slow patient game which doesn't suit a particular majority of the player base, I'm willing to bet). In many campaigns Clan Mors can overrun everything south of the Empire if Grimgor has managed to pound down on the Dwarfs for long enough, while AI Snikch is only marginally better because he starts off tucked in a corner (not much consolation for Imrik players). Speaking of Grimgor, he is pain-in-the-ass number one for Grombi/Thorgrim players as it's nigh impossible to leave the Silver Road (if you want to keep it) before turn 50 because the game gives AI Grimgor so many cheats.

Definitely agree where AI Chaos (all of 'em) turns them into a damp squib (I'm often tempted to turn the Chaos Invasion off these days it's a chore to deal with more than anything else).
 

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I think it's more common in traditional fantasy for the heroes to be underdogs fighting against an enemy who outmatches them and who they have to pull out all the stops to defeat, rather than one whom they already outmatch.

If anything though, I would say that Warhammer Fantasy is a rare example of the reverse. The Empire in particular are not the underdogs, they're very much in the ascendant. They're the status quo everyone else is trying to undo. They're also good at everything. They have actual universities to train powerful wizards. They have advanced technology and artillery like the dwarves. They have amazing knights and, more importantly, they have huge numbers of all these things. Other factions may excel at one thing, but the empire excels at everything.

Chaos in Warhammer fantasy are a bunch of tribal barbarians who live in the frozen tundra, smelly goat people who hide in the forests and harass peasants and daemons who can only do anything under the right weather conditions. They are the underdogs almost all of the time. The fact that they constantly fight each other just makes everything worse.

Once every few generations, chaos becomes a threat. Maybe there's a big storm and daemons can start doing things, maybe there's a powerful warlord who unites the various tribes under one banner. At these moments chaos becomes an existential threat to the world. Warhammer: Total War takes place during one of these times (canonically, the one in which Chaos actually succeeded). But it's important to remember that even taking into account these big events, the Empire's win loss ratio is 12 to 1. That's how dominant the Empire is.

Heck, the reason Warhammer 3 is so focused on chaos is because chaos currently really sucks to play, because they're done in a lore-friendly way that completely gimps them. They don't hold settlements or territory (excpet for Norsca, and even then they're very limited). They can't because their Gods are useless outside of the realm of chaos. The only thing they can do is try and burn the world down, and inevitably get squished by better organised factions who can actually hold the territory they conquer.
Okay, taking that as writ, I can't really argue against that, but I'd counter with the facts that:

-Something that's repeatedly emphasized in Warhammer is that life is terrible for pretty much everyone (least if you're a human in any Old World kingdom - maybe you'd get a better deal in the East), and that on a global scale, things are bad, and will never get better. Chaos can never be defeated, and many times, it's written that people are living in the twilight period of the world.

-You can argue that the Empire is doing okay, but if we look at the 'good' races, how are they faring? Well, the High Elves and Dwarfs are in decline. The Wood Elves are content to stay in the forest and do nothing else. The Lizardmen have lost the first generation of Slaan, so they're kind of operating blind, and aren't really a world power. Meanwhile, greenskins are still a threat, the skaven are still a threat, the undead are still a threat, etc.

-On the subject of Chaos, putting aside End Times for a moment, yes, you're right, Chaos has always been repelled in the end, but it's established that the Chaos incursions are becoming more and more frequent by the 'present' of the setting. For instance, 200 years pass between The Great War Against Chaos, and Achaon's assault. That's a shorter gap than prior incursions. So, with the incursions getting more frequent, and more powerful, quoting from 6th edition, there may come a time where it goes from 200 years, to 100 years, to 50 years, to every year, to, eventually, a never-ending tide. The Empire can repel Chaos every time, but Chaos only has to win once.

As Terminal Blue said, Warhammer is pretty much the opposite. Which is why I like the Warhammer lore quite a bit. The forces of Chaos are weak and disjointed, mostly being relegated to working in the dark recesses of the Empire or on the fringes of the civilized world that are almost uninhabitable to anyone else. Not only is the human Empire strong, so are the High Elves and the Lizardmen, the latter of whom is the old servants of Chaos ancient nemesis. Chaos can occasionally get its stuff together and send out a massive attempt to burn the world down, but just as they are slapped back down by the forces of order and things return to normal.

For all its bleakness and darkness, the world of Warhammer Fantasy is an unusually optimistic take on Dark Fantasy. The Humans are explicitly winning most of the time and while it has touches of dung ages, it also portrays humans are genuinely progressive and intelligent.
I'll grant you that the Empire is strong, but the High Elves and Lizardmen? Really? The High Elves are explicitly stated to be in decline, and the Lizardmen aren't really a world power. They can only guess what the Old Ones wanted for the world, and what the Old Ones wanted for the world probably isn't what's good for the people currently living there (how many people will die if you shift a continent for instance?)

As for humans being intelligent...really? The Norscans are tribal barbarians, but if we confine this to the 'good' humans, then what do we get? Bretonnia may be the land of chivalry and whatnot, but it's still a feudal society where if you're not a knight, your life is terrible. The Empire may be more progressive, but it's got no shortage of superstition within it. I remember in flavour text for Middenheim that a scholar suggested that the comet which destroyed the titular city was a natural event, and that he recanted his opinion before being castrated by his peers or something. That, in addition to flagellants preaching the end of the world, and Chaos cults, and all that, and yes, the Empire may be more enlightened than every other Old World kingdom, but that's a pretty low bar.

Maybe Cathway, Ind, and Nippon are more enlightened, but that's hard to say, since they've been explored far less.
 

Hawki

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This very much unlike, say, Warhammer 40k in which the Imperium is explicitly already dead but is just so massive that inertia is keeping it from realizing itself and where the Eldar are always just on the brink of extinction.
Not sure where that features in. The Imperium is the most powerful body in the galaxy. There's no guarantee that Chaos can win. Yes, there's stuff like the tyranids, necrons, and orks, but they're more equal opportunity genocidals. Also, with the latest addition and Guilliman and the Primaris Marines and whatnot, 40K seems to be a bit more bright.

Also, the Imperium hasn't had its own End Times, so, there.

I mean, if we wanna talk about Chinese propaganda and uncomfortable stuff, I think it's very unfortunate that the ogre kingdoms are coded as Turkic or Mongol and are inhuman bloodthirsty monsters who are the natural enemies of Cathay. It probably seemed a lot more fun back when the real life communities they are based on were not the targets of deliberate campaigns of persecution and ethnic cleansing by the Chinese government.
Never got a sense of coding there. WFB already has its not!Mongols with the hobgoblins. They have/had a leader called Hobgobla Khan FFS. Never saw the ogres as anything as, well, ogres. At least at the time of their release, the ogres were moving west, not east, IRRC.