Trump misunderstands concept of free speech

Agema

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So, Twitter put a fact-check on two of Trump's tweets.

The president duly went ballistic. It's worth noting that Twitter specifically re-wrote its policies to give national leaders special privileges to lie and bullshit - Trump, we might note, recently falsely accused a TV host of murder. However, it deemed Trump's tweet infringed another policy on civic responsibility by spreading election misinformation.

Trump has consequently threatened to strongly "regulate" or close down social media platforms that do not conform to what he sees as ideological balance. Initially this threat was unspecified, but detail is trickling through and it now appears that Trump is going to sign an executive order , which in draft form, will both to investigate and review social media companies and their moderation, and to change the exemption social media firms have from liability for user content. There are also plans for a working group to collect complaints about censorship for legal review, and monitor and create watch lists of certain users.

* * *

Holy shit.

Now, personally, I think we need to point out Twitter did not restrict Trump's free speech at all. It merely pointed users to additional (accurate) information. Free speech is not immunity from other people disagreeing with you or pointing out you are wrong.

Trump, however, explicitly has threatened to control social media companies. He's certainly attempting to legally and financially punish them, in one of his typical, childish overreactions. And the draft plans are certainly also about the government using its powers to monitor and hold information on the public on what seem to me to be extremely weak grounds. I totally wouldn't put it past this early draft being a lot more severe than the end result. (I wouldn't put it past being deliberately OTT in order to seem what it does end up saying appear more reasonable.) But even still, this is astonishing stuff.

I should point out that I am not wedded by any means to social media's immunity from responsibility for the content of its users (in fact, arguably it very much is an unreasonable exemption compared to other media). However, I think this needs to take place as part of a much more considered approach to what social media is - whether it is the private space of the owning company to run as it pleases, or should be recognised as a de facto public space, because this is an extremely complex issue.

Nevertheless, this is plain authoritarianism and government infringement on free speech, potentially giving the executive branch powers to intervene with and punish media companies and individuals. Government departments with political appointees judging social media corporations. I suppose at least it's not the secret police, but I don't think being in plain sight makes it that much better.
 

Trunkage

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I mean, many conservatives, and Trump in particular, have misunderstood things like Freedom of Speech and Religious Freedom for at least 5 years now. This is not new. I'm pretty sure we said that something like this would happen in 2016. At least some realise that you'd have to change the law to actually make this work, turning a private entity into a public one

My current issue that causing this problem is the fact that ALL celebrities get a free pass on Twitter. The thinking is that everyone would be interested in what they had to say, even if it is false. They don't have to follow the rules (at least as closely as everyone else.)

I actually support an investigate into social media. I think reform is needed. I have not faith that its just going to be a witch hunt to shut them down.

I'll also put my own countries weirdness into this. Currently, you have to monitor your own platform very closely. if any hate speech get through, the company gets fined. I dont know why its the companies fault for individual mistakes. But the US tends to copy a lot of laws from Australia so it might indicate a way this could go.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
My current issue that causing this problem is the fact that ALL celebrities get a free pass on Twitter. The thinking is that everyone would be interested in what they had to say, even if it is false. They don't have to follow the rules (at least as closely as everyone else.)

I actually support an investigate into social media. I think reform is needed. I have not faith that its just going to be a witch hunt to shut them down.
I'm curious what you think an investigation into Twitter would uncover or what your hoped results would be? I mean, its a private company, if they want to remove some users then its their deal and the fed really has no legal grounds to prevent that. I think when it comes down to it, my question is, do you think Twitter and companies like it should be nationalized?
 

XsjadoBlayde

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No friend of the current social media corporate stranglehold either, but as Trunkage said, Trump and the modern right have never understood free speech beyond just another dog whistle for being colossal shitheads without any consequence or criticism. I hope Twitter goes all out on this till he has a frigging heart attack, before he harms even more people in and outside the country he's allegedly supposed to be running. But then that would require having a heart, so shit out of luck there.
 

tstorm823

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Sweet.

I figured we were just going to get another "sir, you can't actually do anything about that" moment from this feud, but the weird space between publisher and platform that social media occupies has been a conservative talking point for years, and if twitter fact-checking Trump is the breaking point, I'll take it. The upside of a responsible publisher is that the content is well moderated and curated. The upside of an open platform is that people get to say what they want without imposition. Social media companies aren't well moderated and push off responsibility for what their users post, but at the same time are imposing their bias down on people. It's the worst of all things.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Sweet.

I figured we were just going to get another "sir, you can't actually do anything about that" moment from this feud, but the weird space between publisher and platform that social media occupies has been a conservative talking point for years, and if twitter fact-checking Trump is the breaking point, I'll take it. The upside of a responsible publisher is that the content is well moderated and curated. The upside of an open platform is that people get to say what they want without imposition. Social media companies aren't well moderated and push off responsibility for what their users post, but at the same time are imposing their bias down on people. It's the worst of all things.
So then would you support companies not being able to ban users from their platforms for content?
 

Agema

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The upside of a responsible publisher is that the content is well moderated and curated.
Like "fair and balanced" Fox News, or Breitbart, you mean? Who's enforcing their ideological balance?
 

tstorm823

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So then would you support companies not being able to ban users from their platforms for content?
Probably not, I'd probably personally swing the other way, having increased responsibility for the content and sort of toss aside the suggestion of impartiality altogether. Like, right now, you end up with nobody responsible for what's being said. People make anonymous accounts that shield themselves from personal liability on sites that are legally protected from litigation whether or not they attempt to curate the content, which means there's pretty much no legal recourse at all if someone decides to attack you 140 characters at a time, and at best you can hope Twitter doesn't agree with them and it gets removed.

Like "fair and balanced" Fox News, or Breitbart, you mean? Who's enforcing their ideological balance?
Those are publishers, liable for the things that they say. By no means would treating social media like publishers make them less biased. But it does take out the illusion of "well we're not saying these slanderous biased things, it's the users doing that, we can't help it (even though we take down the political positions we disagree with)."
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Probably not, I'd probably personally swing the other way, having increased responsibility for the content and sort of toss aside the suggestion of impartiality altogether. Like, right now, you end up with nobody responsible for what's being said. People make anonymous accounts that shield themselves from personal liability on sites that are legally protected from litigation whether or not they attempt to curate the content, which means there's pretty much no legal recourse at all if someone decides to attack you 140 characters at a time, and at best you can hope Twitter doesn't agree with them and it gets removed.
Isn't increased responsibility actually what twitter is doing here? I mean they are flagging blatantly false content with a warning and link to more information. They aren't removing content, just flagging it as untrue.
 

Agema

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Those are publishers, liable for the things that they say. By no means would treating social media like publishers make them less biased. But it does take out the illusion of "well we're not saying these slanderous biased things, it's the users doing that, we can't help it (even though we take down the political positions we disagree with)."
Yes, but conservatives are entirely capable of expressing their entire legislative platform on Twitter without any sanction at all, and plenty more extreme policies and opinions beyond that. It's simply absurd to pretend otherwise. I'm a bit bored of reading conservatives argue Twitter etc. are biased by selective anecdote, when millions of conservatives are busy tweeting away, problem-free.

Who are these conservatives getting banned from Twitter? The American Nazi Party? David Duke? Milo Yiannopolous (for using it to direct online harassment)? Alex Jones (for using it to direct online harassment)? You want to embrace neo-Nazis as a cornerstone of conservatism, duly noted. You want to define deliberately setting a battalion of right-wing trolls onto black actresses as conservatism, duly noted.
 
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Revnak

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Seems what he signed is pretty toothless. Sounds like the marshmallow man got a talking to from his staff about how he can’t just write an executive order to clean up his mentions. Either that or Thiel called him up to protect his investments. Sad.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Seems what he signed is pretty toothless. Sounds like the marshmallow man got a talking to from his staff about how he can’t just write an executive order to clean up his mentions. Either that or Thiel called him up to protect his investments. Sad.
Yeah. I'm watching Leonard French go over it and so far its totally toothless and does pretty much nothing. I think its even got a part that says this order shall only be implemented if congress funds it or it wont be established if it counters existing laws, which it does. So, its a nothing order. Although it is just the draft at this point so it could and probably will change, but he really doesn't have any power to do anything about Twitter fact checking him aside from canceling the white house twitter subscription or something.
 

Agema

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Yeah. I'm watching Leonard French go over it and so far its totally toothless and does pretty much nothing. I think its even got a part that says this order shall only be implemented if congress funds it or it wont be established if it counters existing laws, which it does. So, its a nothing order. Although it is just the draft at this point so it could and probably will change, but he really doesn't have any power to do anything about Twitter fact checking him aside from canceling the white house twitter subscription or something.
Interestingly, I also came across opinion that suggested if Trump really did get his way and make Twitter liable for what is written on it, one the first things that might happen is that Twitter might feel obliged to aggressively censor Trump.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Interestingly, I also came across opinion that suggested if Trump really did get his way and make Twitter liable for what is written on it, one the first things that might happen is that Twitter might feel obliged to aggressively censor Trump.
Yeah, it really does seem like that is what would happen, they would almost be forced to ban him because of all his shit.
 

Hades

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Its weird Trump got so angry. Twitter has pretty much said that Trump is free to accuse people of murder just because he doesn't like them. What more freedom does he want?
 

Buyetyen

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Its weird Trump got so angry. Twitter has pretty much said that Trump is free to accuse people of murder just because he doesn't like them. What more freedom does he want?
The freedom to never be corrected, contradicted or criticized.

Anyway, I propose Trump and Jack Dorsey settle this in Thunderdome. The champion gets to fuck off forever.
 

Revnak

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Its weird Trump got so angry. Twitter has pretty much said that Trump is free to accuse people of murder just because he doesn't like them. What more freedom does he want?
He wants to stop being told that he’s in a Wendy’s drive-thru in his mentions. It’s very confusing and he doesn’t even like Wendy’s.
 

tstorm823

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Yes, but conservatives are entirely capable of expressing their entire legislative platform on Twitter without any sanction at all, and plenty more extreme policies and opinions beyond that. It's simply absurd to pretend otherwise. I'm a bit bored of reading conservatives argue Twitter etc. are biased by selective anecdote, when millions of conservatives are busy tweeting away, problem-free.

Who are these conservatives getting banned from Twitter? The American Nazi Party? David Duke? Milo Yiannopolous (for using it to direct online harassment)? Alex Jones (for using it to direct online harassment)? You want to embrace neo-Nazis as a cornerstone of conservatism, duly noted. You want to define deliberately setting a battalion of right-wing trolls onto black actresses as conservatism, duly noted.
I agree with you on the point about free speech. It's not a free speech issue, and complaining about it that way is just the weirdy libertarian rhetoric getting out. I don't think conservatives are treated poorly (most of the time), but I do think the treatment is inequitable. Frankly, I'd be content if everyone was moderated the way conservatives are. I don't think they need to give Alex Jones or Milo a platform, but there are equivalently ridiculous people on the other end of the spectrum, and they're not being removed the same way. Like, if someone tried to organize the next Charleston on a social media platform, I have some confidence they'd be blocked. If someone on the left does the same, I don't have that confidence.
 

SilentPony

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So is Trump convinced the President, and he himself as a citizen, is entitled to a Twitter account? Like he has some legal backing here? What's to stop Twitter from just unverifying him, or just deleting the President's twitter account? You can't sue to have a social media account...