Trump misunderstands concept of free speech

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
1. Exactly -- which is to say, your hypothetical wasn't really relevant, and my *personal* experience was offered to explain why your hypthetical example A) likely wouldn't result in your desired outcome, and B) isn't really relevant.

2. Yes, it's VERY easy to claim an insult or potentially defamatory statement wasn't meant to be taken literally (oh hello, Elon Musk), which is...what I said previously. Whether it's after the fact or not is irrelevant because you rarely get defamation cases where someone says "I absolutely mean this literally and in no uncertain terms, I am accusing this person of pedophelia and waive all claims to this being in jest!"

3. Uh....publishing articles is entirely different that forum posts. Lawsuits against the Escapist for content generated by its own staff or freelancers is not covered under Section 230. That's...the whole point of 230. Plaforms and communications providers can't be held legally responsible for the content that users post on those mediums.
1) yeh but the issues was the differences in the hypotheticals

2) Yes which is where the issue comes in of the deemed clarity you can't just have a rule where you pull the "Of course I was joking". I mean Alex Jones tried that one in court before.

3) And twitter is publishing fact checks now.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
No I said I was ignoring your what-ifs.



I've lost the plot, now you're saying The Escapist doesn't publish its own content? Was that a typo?



An interesting assumption to make, but whatevs. Is this going somewhere?
Oh so you won't answer what ifs but you want me to address semantic arguments?

OK.

NO the capitalisation of a letter doesn't change the legal definition in this case.

Care to actually answer that question now?

Also I'm not shocked you've lost the plot apparently.

Escapist does publish it's own content.

Why doesn't twitter's own published fact checks count as published when they are publishing them according to you?

As for going somewhere. Not quite yet it's being put on the shelf to be used lol
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
Because platforms are entitled to enforcing their own terms of service AND receiving Section 230 protection as long as they are not fundamentally altering or manipulating the actual statements or content provided by users. A ban, takedown or a "fact check" of a statement does not change the actual words. See this explainer from the Electronic Frontier Foundation: https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/230
But is not twitter now publishing it's own fact checks?

They are twitters own material they are putting out.

Just because they've added it onto something doesn't suddenly mean the thing added on isn't published by them.


Hence why fact checking can be complicated. Doesn't mean we don't need it.



I don't care about that, I'm going by what the APA says. One person does not make science, science is made by groups who test a hypothesis and ensure there is no evidence against it and that it can become a theory.
Ah but there's the issue do we take the APA argument when that's referring to terms not if the situations are true.

As the APA link notes

APA said:
is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth.
It's their self defined identity rather than a statement of fact. So for example you can self define yourself as as something but it doesn't mean it is true.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
Hence why fact checking can be complicated. Doesn't mean we don't need it.
I don't think there's a "safe" way to handle it at all. If you disagree, that's fine. I just see it as too dangerous of a power to ever be used by anyone, for any reason.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
Oh so you won't answer what ifs but you want me to address semantic arguments?
No, I want you to stop being obtuse and organize your arguments.

OK.

NO the capitalisation of a letter doesn't change the legal definition in this case.

Care to actually answer that question now?
Full truth, I don't even remember what the question was and don't care enough to go back and look for it.

Escapist does publish it's own content.

Why doesn't twitter's own published fact checks count as published when they are publishing them according to you?
That you keep suggesting Twitter is creating facts whole cloth instead of just displaying the correct information that is available is one of the problems with your question.

As for going somewhere. Not quite yet it's being put on the shelf to be used lol
Then you should probably stop trying to push this argument, since all you're doing is repeating yourself when anyone disagrees with you.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,960
3,835
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
I don't think there's a "safe" way to handle it at all. If you disagree, that's fine. I just see it as too dangerous of a power to ever be used by anyone, for any reason.
There are some topics that are harder, but it still kinda comes down to the majority of expert opinion or fact verifying. Its why we have sites like snopes and politifact.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
No, I want you to stop being obtuse and organize your arguments.
I could say the same of you as you're trying to avoid taking a position to allow you to always argue against one.



Full truth, I don't even remember what the question was and don't care enough to go back and look for it.
Funny to see you outright admit you don't really care enough about the argument to just look back a small amount.That says so much with so little


That you keep suggesting Twitter is creating facts whole cloth instead of just displaying the correct information that is available is one of the problems with your question.
No they're choosing what facts to display.

Here's an example of the issue with facts.

Trump claimed more people attended his ingratiation than Obama's.


You saw the photos of the Mall right?
Far less people.

Only that is the full facts.
Due to protests blocking roads and routes there were people who had come by coach into Washington to see this inauguration but never made it to the Mall so they had come to attend it and were in Washington at the time.

Was it more than Obama? Who knows but it's suspected more people bussed in to see it from out of state areas.

So do we consider only the people on the Mall or do we consider all the people in DC as being there to attend?

To go back to the Koi incident it is both truth that based on the amount of food the Koi received they were being over-fed. It's also true that Trump wasn't being incompetent and was actually following protocol of following the actions of his host.

Twitter have already fact checked Trump once and got it wrong having to later correct it. However if they failed to correct it or failed to make people aware who previously saw it then twitter themselves just spread false information.

This is why it matters and in this case Twitter are acting as a publisher because they are choosing what is deemed fact.

Again they declare Trumps statements not factual and misleading. Yet turn out they were.

If it were some random other person on twitter calling Trump out then they could claim protection but as it was twitter acting as a corporate entity not an individual within the company then it was the company acting as a publisher.


Then you should probably stop trying to push this argument, since all you're doing is repeating yourself when anyone disagrees with you.
You mean repeat my calls for them to actually give an answer rather than in your case strawmen and semantics?
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
There are some topics that are harder, but it still kinda comes down to the majority of expert opinion or fact verifying. Its why we have sites like snopes and politifact.
ah like the WHO saying Coronavirus can't spread from person to person? Ignoring the data from Taiwan about spread?
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
I could say the same of you as you're trying to avoid taking a position to allow you to always argue against one.
Really? Is that what I'm doing? Please, do go on.

You mean repeat my calls for them to actually give an answer rather than in your case strawmen and semantics?
People would probably be more inclined to engage with you if you made better arguments.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
ah like the WHO saying Coronavirus can't spread from person to person? Ignoring the data from Taiwan about spread?
The "experts" said it! It must be true! Also, North Korea has developed a vaccine for the virus, so say their government-funded experts! Censor everybody who disagrees with these "facts", for the good of all mankind!

See, it's a bad idea from the start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dwarvenhobble

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,960
3,835
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
ah like the WHO saying Coronavirus can't spread from person to person? Ignoring the data from Taiwan about spread?
That's bullshit and fake information that you are spreading, I know the story you are talking about and you are just lying.

The tweet in question didn't say that it couldn't be spread person to person, it said at that time it didn't appear to be able to spread person to person but that considering how corona viruses spread it wouldn't be surprising and they ended up updating that in just over a week that they had confirmed person to person spread.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
Seems like it.
If you want me to be completely frank? I have a few suspicions about the motivation and direction of your arguments, but I don't want to presume. So I'm trying to get you to say this shit without leading questions and other rhetorical decorations. If you don't want to, just say so and we can move on.

You mean easier arguments to debunk or more convenient ones I assume. Or just to engage with the strawmen positions they'd prefer to be arguing against rather than the actual ones I take.
No, I mean better arguments as in more coherent. Also, this does not help your credibility:

That's bullshit and fake information that you are spreading, I know the story you are talking about and you are just lying.

The tweet in question didn't say that it couldn't be spread person to person, it said at that time there didn't appear to be able to spread person to person but that considering how corona viruses spread it wouldn't be surprising and they ended up updating that in just over a week that they had confirmed person to person spread.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
That's bullshit and fake information that you are spreading, I know the story you are talking about and you are just lying.
So is the Financial times lying?


How about Buisness insider


I mean here's the tweet from the WHO at the time talking about the results from Chinese authorities. No mention of "We will continue to monitor the situation and update" or implications it may not be correct


The tweet in question didn't say that it couldn't be spread person to person, it said at that time it didn't appear to be able to spread person to person but that considering how corona viruses spread it wouldn't be surprising and they ended up updating that in just over a week that they had confirmed person to person spread.
Welcome to the evolving world of what is real.

At one point people thought Johnny Depp was the abuser and Amber Heard the poor innocent victim.

Now well lets say Heard's story holds far less water.


If you want me to be completely frank? I have a few suspicions about the motivation and direction of your arguments, but I don't want to presume. So I'm trying to get you to say this shit without leading questions and other rhetorical decorations. If you don't want to, just say so and we can move on.
The question you apparently chose not to actually ask lol.


No, I mean better arguments as in more coherent. Also, this does not help your credibility:
Oh having trouble following them are you? I thought they were fairly coherent.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
2,909
986
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
So... your plan to defang these bullies is to make sure there are no checks on the bullies power by taking away platform holder's power. Sounds like a solid plan

Edit: I dont know why you want to give more power to cancel culture. They are as bad enough as it is
The current condition is one where there's only a check to the people opposing the bullies, by making opposition to the political positions used to bully a bannable offense. (say for example, someone's bullying someone for misgendering someone, well, you can't have people defend that person, cause then you're defending misgendering and you'll get banned too, by removing the checks and balances you unleash the second combatant in the fight who up to that point wasn't allowed to fully participate, which will dampen the effect of the other person)
The phone company's responsibility ends at the socket in a wall or the moment an EM signal comes out from a mast. If the people at either end of the call want to broadcast it further, that's all on them.

Twitter, however, is paying money to maintain a web service with content open to anyone. It is not comparable.



Indeed... and malls can and sometimes will remove you if they don't like what you're doing or saying, even if it were legal in a fully public space.



Twitter takes action against targetted misgendering; i.e. as a form of abuse or harassment.



Hey, why not chuck homosexuals in with the "mental illness" dustbin too, or anyone else who fails to meet your standards of appropriate behaviour.
Ok so in that sense the twitter is the megaphone. Does the megaphone company come and break your megaphone if they disagree with what you broadcast?

Malls don't get to remove your rights. They aren't their own fiefdoms. A mall cop can't arrest you and if they touch you that's assault. All they can do is ask for the cops to arrest you and look mean while they wait for them. Malls can ask you to leave if you're doing something extraordinary like screaming like a madman or throwing stuff at people or runnning up and down the escalators. Not for normally participating in a discussion they disagree with. If they do do that because a guard overheard you say something he didn't like guess what, you can SUE them. You should be able to sue twitter too.

The "targetted" thing is a weasel-word that is not applied as one would expect based on its definition. You can see that in the multiple Rogan podcasts with the twitter ceo, there's tons of examples where some person wasn't targetting anyone (such as the tennis lady who said something like "men aren't women though" and got banned when it was just a single remark during a chat and wasn't part of organized spamming) and the real issue here is that when there's a rule being "misinterpreted" or "misapplied" it's ALWAYS going towards the left wing way of misinterpretation. It's always things that aren't this bad thing being seen as though they are, never things that are it being seen as innocent.




Gay folks have existed since forever. People who think are dragons I guess have existed too but they were either seen as the village idiot (or as a religious leader haha) or some other type of crazy person.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
14,960
3,835
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Attack the argument, not the user.
I mean here's the tweet from the WHO at the time talking about the results from Chinese authorities. No mention of "We will continue to monitor the situation and update" or implications it may not be correct
That still doesn't say what you said it does, it says pretty much what I said.

I get that you are a trump sycophant but the lengths you will go brown nose him are pretty astounding.
 

Houseman

Mad Hatter Meme Machine.
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
3,910
760
118
I mean here's the tweet from the WHO at the time talking about the results from Chinese authorities. No mention of "We will continue to monitor the situation and update"
No, Worgen is right. The tweet only says that Chinese authorities claim that "there's no clear evidence". "There's no evidence that it can" is not the same thing as saying "it can't". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Also, the word "preliminary" implies that the situation will continue to be monitored and updated.

But it is true that, in this case, the experts were wrong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dwarvenhobble

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
That still doesn't say what you said it does, it says pretty much what I said.

I get that you are a trump sycophant but the lengths you will go brown nose him are pretty astounding.
Not a Trump Sycophant I'm just fed up of people so delusional they think Trump is Super Hitler because MSNBC said so and are bitter because it was #Herturn still
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
The question you apparently chose not to actually ask lol.
What question am I supposed to have asked that would have made your obtuse shuffling from leading question or talking point to the next come together?

Oh having trouble following them are you? I thought they were fairly coherent.
Yes. Because you wrote them. I didn't. And because you're leaving out a shit load of stuff, as an outsider looking in, I am coming to the conclusion that you're just making this up as you go. You've made your contempt for expertise and objective truth quite apparent.
 

Dwarvenhobble

Is on the Gin
May 26, 2020
6,014
665
118
The "targetted" thing is a weasel-word that is not applied as one would expect based on its definition. You can see that in the multiple Rogan podcasts with the twitter ceo, there's tons of examples where some person wasn't targetting anyone (such as the tennis lady who said something like "men aren't women though" and got banned when it was just a single remark during a chat and wasn't part of organized spamming) and the real issue here is that when there's a rule being "misinterpreted" or "misapplied" it's ALWAYS going towards the left wing way of misinterpretation. It's always things that aren't this bad thing being seen as though they are, never things that are it being seen as innocent.




Gay folks have existed since forever. People who think are dragons I guess have existed too but they were either seen as the village idiot (or as a religious leader haha) or some other type of crazy person.

I'd like to add especially when "Targeted" seems to mean for some people "They talked about me and some-one linked me to it"