The Shattered Elden Ring Thread: Tarnished Edition - (Shadow of the Erdtree p. 85)

sXeth

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I've absolutely loved the pure utility of being able to make stuff on the fly as needed. Crafting materials being generally very available and stackable to 999 really helps too.

My only complaint is the perplexing insistence that stuff like atreina leaves, or whatever they're called, are somehow noteworthy or worth being made rare. Like. First of all they're farmable, second of all they are only used to give you a fairly low damage boost for a brief period of time. That's not super useful unless you're trying to make a glass cannon and even then there are better ways to get the buffs you need to nuke a boss.

Yeah, Trinas Lily became a joke early on in my playthrough. You can literally reload a grace to pick them in Limgrave so.... idk why they're popped in with the rare loot tag/glow.

You can basically play a gadget(?) mage though, if you grab a bow, a crossbow, and use the 4 pouch slots to give you effectively 8 utility "spells". It does involve a lot of beast smacking for thin bones though (or taking out the Stormhill Bell Bearing hunter to make them buyable)
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Finished it the other day.

Pretty good game overall, very long game too, so long that, especially in later parts, the cracks were starting to show. Which might be an overly negative note to start off on, because really, there is a lot there to like. For a studio that has never made an open world game before, they got a lot right the first time. Whenever you enter a new region, you can head off in practically any direction and you're likely to find something worthwhile. The mainquest serves as a sort of red string to guide the player through the games various major regions, which then offer a plethora of optional content, which, in many cases, might very well turn into larger questlines with their own designated large regions all on their own. It's arguably one of the best structured open world rpg's I've seen in a pretty long while, its world keeps expanding outward, inward and downward near endlessly. You can tell that the people making it actually put a lot of thought in how to build an open world around the base gameplay of the Dark Souls series. It's all pretty sweet, the places you go to are visually varied, reward exploration and convey that hard to define adventurous feel that so many big open world RPGs are chasing and not nearly enough of them actually manage to catch. In my first impressions I wrote that if the game managed to maintain the overall quality of its starting area Limgrave it might be one of the all time greats. It doesn't quite, but it never fell of the way I was afraid it would. There are one or two later zones that feel a bit like an afterthought and notable mini- and medium sized dungeons become rarer and rarer but there's not really a sharp decline or anything. Overall it strikes a remarkably succesful balance between exploration that's feels both vast and open ended and yet very well curated.
I suppose where Elden Ring shows its weaknesses is, oddly enough, in what has been carried over from the Dark Souls series. I'm not sure if this is a controversial thing to say, but I don't think I'd count any of Elden Rings bossfights anywhere near the best among From Soft's titles. They range from perfectly fine, to forgettable, to rather sloppy. This might be a minor spoiler for a lategame boss, but a certain red haired valkyrie who, otherwise, might have been one of the games best bosses, just had to have an attack that's exceedingly likely to kill you in one hit and is borderline impossible to dodge. The whole fight felt like not a single soul ever playtested it. It's probably the most egregious example in the game but not really the only one. There's so many fights that seem like they just have that one cheap move that makes them annoying when they could be fun. I'll be the first to admit that I was never great at Souls combat but bear with me, I never resorted to using summons in any previous From games. And that's not because I've had an easy time with them, mind you, but simply because even fights that took me a long time to beat felt fair enough that I stuck with them. In Elden Ring I just couldn't be arsed to commit to a fair one on one encounter quite frequently. Especially with how many bosses were more or less just some big guy who flails around a lot. In the games actual final bossfight I felt like I was fighting the camera much more than the actual creature.
Now, to be fair, as much as I always liked Souls combat fine, I also always had more fun with Bloodborne and, especially, Sekiro. The latter being the only one of those game where, by the end, I actually felt I had gotten pretty good at. This is purely personal but I really would have enjoyed if there had been more of them in Elden Ring. As it is, it's mainly Dark Souls with a jump button (That's hardly utilized in actual combat, at the very least when it comes to dodging) and a horse. Truth be told, I actually liked the mounted combat pretty well. There is a certain irony to how the game cheapens some of its better boss encounter by reusing them. It didn't exactly bother me, or rather, while it made me roll my eyes I begrudgingly accepted it as a popular trope of JRPG game design, but there were a few that had me like "dude, come on."

Elden Ring's writing and worldbuilding is a strange beast. Where the Dark Souls series, while certainly a lot larger than life in its presentation and storytelling, was very commited to a gritty, deterministic, bleak tone, Elden Ring is high fantasy at it's highest. There's still plenty of disturbing subtext in the specifics of its storytelling, but it's much closer to bombastic, tolkienian, power metal cover looking, sword and sorcery cheese than anything else From has made. The vistas invoke the old masters of pulp fantasy illustrations, the likes of Frank Frazetta, Roger Dean or Alan Lee's Lord of the Rings illustrations, which even Peter Jackson's lavishly produced film adaptations could only approximate. Elden Ring's art design never crosses the line seperating it from kitsch as gleefully as something like Final Fantasy does, but it definitely has one foot over there.
Of course From's long standing mastermind Hidetaka Miyazaki shares his writing credit for Elden Ring with the popular american fantasy novelist George R.R. Martin, which is a curiosity all by itself. You can tell exactly where their personal writing quirks mix, clash and compete. It seems like a constant tug of war between Miyazaki's broadness and Martin's specificity. Elden Ring's greater cosmology is as opaque and as abstract as ever, showing a world governed by nebulous cosmic entities with names like "The Golden Order", "Destined Death" and "The Crucible of Life" while the concrete historical and political landscape of the Lands Between is fleshed out in greater detail than that of any other FromSoft production. Elden Ring provides plenty of warring heirs, major and minor noble houses with their own beautifully designed crests, knightly orders, tangled family relations with occasional incestuous undertones, political marriages, illegitimate children all supporting a story that effectively boils down to a kind of religious war. One supposes Elden Ring's increased scale and sheer vastness of its setting is exactly why From called on Martin as a consultant when it comes to colouring in the specifics. However, the increased presence of these specifics also pushes From's signature vague, exposition averse method of storytelling to its limits.
When your primary interaction with most historically significant personalities you meet is a short monologue and a fight to the death, you feel like you're in a game of DnD where you're railroaded into playing a murder hobo. Mind you, I'm not proposing that a soulslike game should start implementing speech checks but with its characters personalities and relationships being more fleshed out, and more relevant to the story, at least slightly more interaction should be possible.

Overall the game is bound to end up on plenty of "Best of all time" lists, and who am I to argue with that. It has an overall unusually good quality to quantity ratio. It's also a game that has some definite shortcomings that I can't look past for long enough to join in on all the rave reviews. It's not that I don't see where they're coming from, it's one of the best open world games of recent memory which is all the mory impressive considering it's the studios first one. But when its issues come to the foreground, they are hard to ignore. While the presentation of its climactic fights is as good as its ever been, the actual fights simply don't measure up to the likes of Artorias, Gherman or Genichiro and in a game where combat is your primary interaction with the world, I'm not really ready to give it a pass for them, no matter how much I actually love the exploration. Elden Ring certainly creates a very compelling world, one that I'd actually like to see more of. I'd totally read a book or watch an animated series set there. The collaboration between Martin and Miyazaki managed to create something pretty odd, but compelling. Elden Ring is good. Quite good, even. But there's room for improvement in plenty of places.
 
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sXeth

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Finished it the other day.
...

The odd thing with the story is that Martin himself said he spent two days giving them a "backbone" for the Mythos. Which would seem to imply the opposite, that he made the broader strokes and they made all the human detail that you'd expect the other way around.


I think the thing that became increasingly annoying with bosses was they all have effective reset buttons. The earliest example was Godrick's tornado, a move with almost no wind up that protects him in an AoE on all sides and forces you to move back to range. The classic style of Souls combat is to control your posiitoning and bait out favorable attacks, and every single boss seems to start doing these moves that force the fight back into a neutral or full on favorable position for them. Having to chase Elden Beast across the arena, or Astel's warping or the giant deers outright teleport-AoE aura of death-heal move (fortunately the healing gimmick is limited). Or the Ulcerated Tree spirit simply exploding in fire on you at half health (With later versions using Rot). Rot in itself being its own annoyance, as unlike the relatively confined Toxic status of prior titles, it starts seeming like every other enemy has been upgraded to release giant clouds of it.
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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The odd thing with the story is that Martin himself said he spent two days giving them a "backbone" for the Mythos. Which would seem to imply the opposite, that he made the broader strokes and they made all the human detail that you'd expect the other way around.


I think the thing that became increasingly annoying with bosses was they all have effective reset buttons. The earliest example was Godrick's tornado, a move with almost no wind up that protects him in an AoE on all sides and forces you to move back to range. The classic style of Souls combat is to control your posiitoning and bait out favorable attacks, and every single boss seems to start doing these moves that force the fight back into a neutral or full on favorable position for them. Having to chase Elden Beast across the arena, or Astel's warping or the giant deers outright teleport-AoE aura of death-heal move (fortunately the healing gimmick is limited). Or the Ulcerated Tree spirit simply exploding in fire on you at half health (With later versions using Rot). Rot in itself being its own annoyance, as unlike the relatively confined Toxic status of prior titles, it starts seeming like every other enemy has been upgraded to release giant clouds of it.
I get the impression it could’ve certainly had more time dedicated to tuning these fights and making each feel more uniquely tactical in different ways, but it’s one example of the game’s size likely being a victim of itself. It’s like these larger than life fights were all merely designed to make use of summons/ashes/spells/etc. moreso than being true duels, which were relegated to the more human-like enemies. I’m sure some insanely dedicated people will do lvl 1 no damage melee runs eventually, but that feat is going to represent the farthest outlier of all the prior games by far.
 

Brokencontroller

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I get the impression it could’ve certainly had more time dedicated to tuning these fights and making each feel more uniquely tactical in different ways, but it’s one example of the game’s size likely being a victim of itself. It’s like these larger than life fights were all merely designed to make use of summons/ashes/spells/etc. moreso than being true duels, which were relegated to the more human-like enemies. I’m sure some insanely dedicated people will do lvl 1 no damage melee runs eventually, but that feat is going to represent the farthest outlier of all the prior games by far.
Lobosjr already did a SL1 run. He dies a lot but when he does kill bosses it is because he did the fight perfect without getting hit. The final fight took him three days and like 20 total hours.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Lobosjr already did a SL1 run. He dies a lot but when he does kill bosses it is because he did the fight perfect without getting hit. The final fight took him three days and like 20 total hours.
FFS. I wonder how that rates next to other Souls games’ toughest bosses under these conditions.

I never was masochistic enough for SL1 runs but in general I’ve spent more than two nights on Lady Butterfly (although NG she was only the second boss I fought), Owl (Father), both Isshin’s, Nameless King, Midir, and that damn Ebrietas in the root chalice dungeon. She was probably the toughest, mostly due to the conditions placed on the player down there.

I’d imagine the toughest in ER will be dependent on build type more than past games though.
 
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Silvanus

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Few people have mentioned Elden Ring reusing "main" bosses as dungeon bosses and such (like Godrick and Godefroy, or Astel), but... Bloodborne did exactly the same thing with Ebrietas and Rom, no?

DS1 reused Taurus Demons and Capra Demons, and recycled the Asylum Demon twice. DS2 recycled the Last Giant fight. DS3 recycled the Dragonslayer Armour. They all do It! And tbh I don't have much of a problem with it.
 

CriticalGaming

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Few people have mentioned Elden Ring reusing "main" bosses as dungeon bosses and such (like Godrick and Godefroy, or Astel), but... Bloodborne did exactly the same thing with Ebrietas and Rom, no?
Bloodborne wasn't an open world game that people clamoured about it's size and how great of an open world it was. Bloodborne also only reused Rom, not Ebrietas, and it only reuses Rom once, not 47 times.

I wouldn't mind if ER reused bosses as much if it could at least keep the 14 or so storyline bosses different. I think it's pretty unforgivable that they reuse main story bosses for main sotry progression. If Godrick appeared as a extra boss in some other random side dungeon, then I'd be okay with that. But you literally have to fight him twice during the main story as mandatory bosses.

There are 150 boss encounters in ER. They couldn't save 14 of those to be unqiue story bosses? Really?
 

CriticalGaming

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FFS. I wonder how that rates next to other Souls games’ toughest bosses under these conditions.

I never was masochistic enough for SL1 runs but in general I’ve spent more than two nights on Lady Butterfly (although NG she was only the second boss I fought), Owl (Father), both Isshin’s, Nameless King, Midir, and that damn Ebrietas in the root chalice dungeon. She was probably the toughest, mostly due to the conditions placed on the player down there.

I’d imagine the toughest in ER will be dependent on build type more than past games though.
Some other guy beat ER without ever taking a single point of damage.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Some other guy beat ER without ever taking a single point of damage.
Well fuck…that just looks stressful. Especially while live streaming it. These kinds of feats are really impressive but always remind me they must not have any real life obligations to dedicate the time and effort needed, or just have inhuman memory and cognition.
 
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Silvanus

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Bloodborne wasn't an open world game that people clamoured about it's size and how great of an open world it was. Bloodborne also only reused Rom, not Ebrietas, and it only reuses Rom once, not 47 times.
Ebrietas turns up in the Great Isz Chalice dungeon, so she was reused.

And 47 is a huge exaggeration. The ones that get reused more than a few times-- Night's Cavalry, Erdtree Avatar, Burial Watchdog etc. aren't even meant to be unique individuals. There's canonically more than one of them.

I wouldn't mind if ER reused bosses as much if it could at least keep the 14 or so storyline bosses different. I think it's pretty unforgivable that they reuse main story bosses for main sotry progression. If Godrick appeared as a extra boss in some other random side dungeon, then I'd be okay with that. But you literally have to fight him twice during the main story as mandatory bosses.

There are 150 boss encounters in ER. They couldn't save 14 of those to be unqiue story bosses? Really?
As far as I know, literally only Godrick gets reused that way, and even then it's just once (and he's canonically a different individual).

If you're counting Margit, that's a very different fight and has storyline justification.
 

CriticalGaming

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As far as I know, literally only Godrick gets reused that way, and even then it's just once (and he's canonically a different individual).

If you're counting Margit, that's a very different fight and has storyline justification.
Margit and Margot are literally the same person, the fight is mostly the same with a couple extra moves the second time. Adding a couple of attacks to the same character does not make the fight unique imo. The same why changing the elemental breath of a dragon doesn't change the dragon fight.

Godfrey is used twice, his second fight having a drastically different fight when he becomes Hoora Luex (or whatever the fuck).

Two bosses get reused basically for a total of four fights. No big deal, except these are all REQUIRED fights to beat the game (Margit is technically skipable but then you have to fight through another big fight so he is the easiest progession fight).

There are 13 required bosses to kill in order to "beat" the game. If you reuse two fights, that means they only put 11 unique encounters into the main progression of the game. 11 bosses that EVERYONE will see regardless of how much they explore.

In a game that has about 70 potential unique bosses, this is unforgivable to me. They could have swapped out any other encounter of the 70 in order to make sure that players "main progress" had 100% unique bosses the whole time.

Hell they could have simply gotten rid of Godrey's second fight entirely and make you fight him solely as his wrestlemania form instead and that would have been a completely fine fight.

And 47 is a huge exaggeration. The ones that get reused more than a few times-- Night's Cavalry, Erdtree Avatar, Burial Watchdog etc. aren't even meant to be unique individuals. There's canonically more than one of them.
I know, I'm emphasizing. However it's still viewed as copy paste regardless of story reasons. These aren't even that bad. There are also Tree Sentinels, and Tree Spirits that get copy pasted so much that sometimes they aren't even technically bosses despite not respawning after death if you kill them.

There is more than just enemy problems in terms of copy paste issues. Many caves and catacombs suffer the same layout copy paste issues, which is confusing to me because all they had to do was make them use the same tile set RNG as the Chalice dungeons in Bloodborne to make them feel more different. Although they also suffer the issue of no enemy variety at all. Every cave and catacomb has the same fucking things to fight in it.

I highly suggest watching Joseph Anderson's video (posted above) when you have some time, because he makes a lot of my points as well but he is better at describing why it's such an issue than I am and he backs it up with video evidence. It's a great video and not terribly long.
 

Silvanus

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Margit and Margot are literally the same person, the fight is mostly the same with a couple extra moves the second time. Adding a couple of attacks to the same character does not make the fight unique imo. The same why changing the elemental breath of a dragon doesn't change the dragon fight.

Godfrey is used twice, his second fight having a drastically different fight when he becomes Hoora Luex (or whatever the fuck).

Two bosses get reused basically for a total of four fights. No big deal, except these are all REQUIRED fights to beat the game (Margit is technically skipable but then you have to fight through another big fight so he is the easiest progession fight).

There are 13 required bosses to kill in order to "beat" the game. If you reuse two fights, that means they only put 11 unique encounters into the main progression of the game. 11 bosses that EVERYONE will see regardless of how much they explore.

In a game that has about 70 potential unique bosses, this is unforgivable to me. They could have swapped out any other encounter of the 70 in order to make sure that players "main progress" had 100% unique bosses the whole time.

Hell they could have simply gotten rid of Godrey's second fight entirely and make you fight him solely as his wrestlemania form instead and that would have been a completely fine fight.
Technically I'm pretty sure Godrick himself is skippable; you just need 2 great runes. His is just the closest and easiest. But I definitely get your point.

Morgott v Margit is absolutely fine with me honestly, because there's solid storyline reasons to fight the same guy twice, and it's significantly different. I mean, you fight Seymour 4 times in FFX, and fight Seifer about 3 times in FF8... but so what? You fight Nemesis countless times in RE3! But Its a distinct experience, and justified in lore. The guy's a recurring antagonist.

I know, I'm emphasizing. However it's still viewed as copy paste regardless of story reasons. These aren't even that bad. There are also Tree Sentinels, and Tree Spirits that get copy pasted so much that sometimes they aren't even technically bosses despite not respawning after death if you kill them.
Well sure, but why would there only be one when they're not meant to be unique individuals? Tis a bit like saying you should only fight one Bloater in TLOU. Why? There's literally more than one of an enemy type!

There is more than just enemy problems in terms of copy paste issues. Many caves and catacombs suffer the same layout copy paste issues, which is confusing to me because all they had to do was make them use the same tile set RNG as the Chalice dungeons in Bloodborne to make them feel more different. Although they also suffer the issue of no enemy variety at all. Every cave and catacomb has the same fucking things to fight in it.

I highly suggest watching Joseph Anderson's video (posted above) when you have some time, because he makes a lot of my points as well but he is better at describing why it's such an issue than I am and he backs it up with video evidence. It's a great video and not terribly long.
Yeah, can't argue much with that. Catacombs do get layout reused too much, and are too samey in terms of atmosphere & enemy types as well. Agreed.

I'll watch it a bit later.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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Margit and Margot are literally the same person, the fight is mostly the same with a couple extra moves the second time. Adding a couple of attacks to the same character does not make the fight unique imo. The same why changing the elemental breath of a dragon doesn't change the dragon fight.

Godfrey is used twice, his second fight having a drastically different fight when he becomes Hoora Luex (or whatever the fuck).

Two bosses get reused basically for a total of four fights. No big deal, except these are all REQUIRED fights to beat the game (Margit is technically skipable but then you have to fight through another big fight so he is the easiest progession fight).

There are 13 required bosses to kill in order to "beat" the game. If you reuse two fights, that means they only put 11 unique encounters into the main progression of the game. 11 bosses that EVERYONE will see regardless of how much they explore.

In a game that has about 70 potential unique bosses, this is unforgivable to me. They could have swapped out any other encounter of the 70 in order to make sure that players "main progress" had 100% unique bosses the whole time.

Hell they could have simply gotten rid of Godrey's second fight entirely and make you fight him solely as his wrestlemania form instead and that would have been a completely fine fight.



I know, I'm emphasizing. However it's still viewed as copy paste regardless of story reasons. These aren't even that bad. There are also Tree Sentinels, and Tree Spirits that get copy pasted so much that sometimes they aren't even technically bosses despite not respawning after death if you kill them.

There is more than just enemy problems in terms of copy paste issues. Many caves and catacombs suffer the same layout copy paste issues, which is confusing to me because all they had to do was make them use the same tile set RNG as the Chalice dungeons in Bloodborne to make them feel more different. Although they also suffer the issue of no enemy variety at all. Every cave and catacomb has the same fucking things to fight in it.

I highly suggest watching Joseph Anderson's video (posted above) when you have some time, because he makes a lot of my points as well but he is better at describing why it's such an issue than I am and he backs it up with video evidence. It's a great video and not terribly long.
I favorited it for when I have more time but reading some of the comments, I kinda get the feeling Miyazaki basically threw his hands up in the air on bosses; seven games on now and more or less being at a loss for how to handle such a breadth of boss encounters in uniquely tactical ways, and just went extra thick on spectacle instead.

Given the size of the game encompassing everything they’ve done since Demon’s Souls, it would seem a very fitting time for the dark fantasy RPG FROMula to take a long, well-deserved rest.
 
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CriticalGaming

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Morgott v Margit is absolutely fine with me honestly
I wouldn't have minded it either if there were more bosses on the mandatory path in the game. Like if it was just a couple bosses that come back later to fight you stronger in the middle of say 25-30 story bosses you have to fight in the game.....then I'd be fine with it.

But there are only 13 fights required here. That's just....fuck the only word I can come up with is sloppy. This game is sloppy.
 

CriticalGaming

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I favorited it for when I have more time but reading some of the comments, I kinda get the feeling Miyazaki basically threw his hands up in the air on bosses; seven games on now and more or less being at a loss for how to handle such a breadth of boss encounters in uniquely tactical ways, and just went extra thick on spectacle instead.

Given the size of the game encompassing everything they’ve done since Demon’s Souls, it would seem a very fitting time for the dark fantasy RPG FROMula to take a long, well-deserved rest.
I think the best thing for Miyazaki would be to explore other settings. Like there is only so much you can do with a dragon and with knights in armor and other medievil shit.

But take the souls concept to space and fight aliens, or a terminator-esque apocalype and you have guns, lazers, technomancy, and all sorts of shit you can do while still leaning on the gameplay style you like and are good at.

Or make a different fucking game. Make a small platformer, or a turn based RPG. I dunno.
 
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sXeth

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There are 13 required bosses to kill in order to "beat" the game. If you reuse two fights, that means they only put 11 unique encounters into the main progression of the game. 11 bosses that EVERYONE will see regardless of how much they explore.
13?

2 out of Godrick/Renalla/Rykard/Radahn
ghost Godfrey
Morgot
Fire Giant
Maliketh
Godfrey Realsies
Radagon
Elden Beast

Though I'd agree that the ghost Godfrey is just kind of random, seems to have no real reason or lore implication to be there. Like they could've just taken the non-boss Bloodhound Knight thats like thirty steps past him and bumped that up.


This could of course be that Godfrey and the Loux storyline apparently got chopped for time or whatver. Nepheli Loux had her "quest" patched back in, but even thats a few random lines of dialogue with barely any context (you go pick up a random item from a never indicated spot to give to her, then magically her and Kenneth show up at Godricks throne to claim it (again with no indicator whatsoever to go there)