US 2024 Presidential Election

[Phoenixmgs]

This is a completely different argument again, unrelated to what Hades said, or even what you were saying earlier.

But let's look at it. Where do "obligations" come from? Are we talking moral or legal?

Legal obligations come from the Refugee Convention & the 1980 Refugee Act. There's no international legal obligation to grant asylum. But refugees cannot be turned away-- they must be processed-- and are protected from refoulement.

So, i assume you're talking about a moral obligation to grant asylum. You believe countries have no moral obligation, even when the asylum case is valid and the threat is real. Is that what you're arguing?

Huh? Hades came in here talking nonsense:

https://forums.escapistmagazine.com/threads/us-2024-presidential-election.288870/page-402#post-13373387

The only obligation a country has is to make decisions that make the country better. That could or could not mean allowing in immigrants.

 

[Silvanus]

The only obligation a country has is to make decisions that make the country better. That could or could not mean allowing in immigrants.

This is so vague as to be meaningless.

Just answer the question: do you mean a moral obligation? And are you talking now about immigrants or those seeking aslyum?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

You're critiquing my grammar because I used "and" instead of "or" by mistake? 80% of people don't want more immigration, democrats need to stop running on things that 80% of the population doesn't want.

I wasn't critiquing your grammar. I actually had no idea that you made a grammar mistake (although switching "or" and "and" has nothing to do with grammar). I just thought that you wrote nonsense because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm critiquing the fact that you made a really stupid claim, and then to back up your claim you posted a chart that said the opposite of what you thought it did and didn't support your claim whatsoever.

 

[Trunkage]

IIRC, Australia also (rather controversially at the time), refused to take in as refugees the people (and their families) who had worked for/with the ADF at the time.

Why would any enemy combatants ever switch sides and help us? We just going to abandon them as soon as humanly possible

And Johnny Howard wants us to help in Iran. What a twat. Maybe dont fuck over allies

 

[Trunkage]

Tell me the actual scientific reason that moved the original end date of the vaccine trials.

I just told you. If you JUST listened to what the CDC, you arent doing science. In science, you look for concensus, multiple agencies across many countries. Taking one countries opinion is stupid. We told you this in 2020. It is not anyone else problem if you refuse to learn anything

There is no reason to have mandated a vaccine that provides no community protection

Its funny how RFK has to keep firing scienists becuase they disagree with your point

Other than that, 750, 000 Americans died per year without the vaccine. 70, 000 die with the vaccine. I dont know what community benefit means to you but keep it away from me

and it is also unconstitutional to mandate it as SCOTUS ruled that on Biden's overreach.

The first draft of the mandate was unconstitutional. I agree with SCOTUS here. Biden made a mistake, he rectified it and the mandate was allowed

It was the left saying the vaccine dangerous when it was being developed, not the right.

The right always saw it as dangerous. I did too. I told you exactly what I needed to see before I thought it was safe in 2020. I paraphrased it for you before. I refused to take it until enough dats was in to see it safe.

Because you have a problem. You are not actually talking about the Left. You are just talking about a made up person that you named the Left

If the school was closed for the storm, why would the parents have been upset about that?

Because the school is closed. You know, how homeless people are housed in school through every major storm whether they lost their house or were always homeless, citizen or immigrant

You are turning normal sitution that happens everywhere into something stupid

 

[Hades]

The only obligation a country has is to make decisions that make the country better. That could or could not mean allowing in immigrants.

Problem is that no one agrees on what makes countries better or not. Some would say bringing in migrants to fix our decaying birthright or for cheap labour would be a fix.

Huh? Hades came in here talking nonsense:

Funny. Everything I have said is consistent with how the far right talks and shift targets depending on what is tactically convinient. One of the perks of Wilders being among the first and longest lasting far right demagogues is that we've been seeing their work for a long time by now.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

This is so vague as to be meaningless.

Just answer the question: do you mean a moral obligation? And are you talking now about immigrants or those seeking aslyum?

I don't care why people are coming to a country. If it's beneficial to let them in, then let them in; if it's not, then don't let them in.

I wasn't critiquing your grammar. I actually had no idea that you made a grammar mistake (although switching "or" and "and" has nothing to do with grammar). I just thought that you wrote nonsense because you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm critiquing the fact that you made a really stupid claim, and then to back up your claim you posted a chart that said the opposite of what you thought it did and didn't support your claim whatsoever.

80% of people don't want more immigration and that's been true since the question has been polled by Gallup. If you're a political party, you shouldn't be for things 80% of the population doesn't want. It's not that difficult.

I just told you. If you JUST listened to what the CDC, you arent doing science. In science, you look for concensus, multiple agencies across many countries. Taking one countries opinion is stupid. We told you this in 2020. It is not anyone else problem if you refuse to learn anything

Its funny how RFK has to keep firing scienists becuase they disagree with your point

Other than that, 750, 000 Americans died per year without the vaccine. 70, 000 die with the vaccine. I dont know what community benefit means to you but keep it away from me

The first draft of the mandate was unconstitutional. I agree with SCOTUS here. Biden made a mistake, he rectified it and the mandate was allowed

The right always saw it as dangerous. I did too. I told you exactly what I needed to see before I thought it was safe in 2020. I paraphrased it for you before. I refused to take it until enough dats was in to see it safe.

Because you have a problem. You are not actually talking about the Left. You are just talking about a made up person that you named the Left


Because the school is closed. You know, how homeless people are housed in school through every major storm whether they lost their house or were always homeless, citizen or immigrant

You are turning normal sitution that happens everywhere into something stupid

They literally never gave a reason for changing the end date... You're just speculating after that, I don't care about speculation.

The covid vaccine provides no community benefit, that's simply an objective fact.

The mandate wasn't allowed.

Literally...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/05/kamala-harris-trump-coronavirus-vaccine-409320

Parents weren't upset because the school was closed due to a storm, that has like never been something that has ever happened. Parents upset that a school is closed when it could be open, now that's something that has happened.

Problem is that no one agrees on what makes countries better or not. Some would say bringing in migrants to fix our decaying birthright or for cheap labour would be a fix.



Funny. Everything I have said is consistent with how the far right talks and shift targets depending on what is tactically convinient. One of the perks of Wilders being among the first and longest lasting far right demagogues is that we've been seeing their work for a long time by now.

No one agrees on tons of things, that's people. 80% of the population doesn't think increasing immigration is good, hence you don't increase it because, you know, that's sorta how a democracy should work (not that I'm the biggest fan of doing the majority consensus but that's what we got).

Nobody thinks no immigration is good...

 

[FakeSympathy]

South Korean ship attacked near Strait of Hormuz, country's government says | The Jerusalem Post

Earlier on Monday, an official from the South Korean Foreign Affairs Ministry told a Korean media outlet that there had been no Korean casualties in the attack.

www.jpost.com

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5862570-iran-war-trump-south-korea/

So let me get this straight:
You start a messy bullshit, creating an indefinite oil shortage for nearly all nations in the world....
then one of the ships from a country that tries to remain neutral gets attacked BECAUSE OF THE SAID MESS.....
And now you want that country to take action....caused by something YOU STARTED?

FFS, I know US and Korea are allies, and it is sort-of expected for allies to have eac other back, but what do you expect Korea to do with a miliary that is only a fraction of US military force?

Also, SK is still at war with NK (remember, it's 50+ years of ceasefire). You really expect them to pull their military from DMZ?

 

[Silvanus]

I don't care why people are coming to a country. If it's beneficial to let them in, then let them in; if it's not, then don't let them in.

Doesn't answer my questions, but ok, just keep offering platitudes.

 

[Satinavian]

FFS, I know US and Korea are allies, and it is sort-of expected for allies to have eac other back, but what do you expect Korea to do with a miliary that is only a fraction of US military force?

Send ships into the strait to get shot at so US ships don't have to get shot at and Trump has not to justify more US casualities. Also take any blame if anything doesn't work.

Forcefully opening the strait is actually dangerous so Trump prefers if other nations do that. And he also really wants this mess to not be his failure.

 

[Hades]

No one agrees on tons of things, that's people. 80% of the population doesn't think increasing immigration is good, hence you don't increase it because, you know, that's sorta how a democracy should work (not that I'm the biggest fan of doing the majority consensus but that's what we got).

Nobody thinks no immigration is good...

80% of the populations do not believe migration should be increased. You know what else has about a 80% rate of not wanting immigration to increase? Political parties. Establishment parties. Left wing parties. They nearly ALL have in their programs wishes and plans to reduce migration.

The conversation is not about that. That part of the conversation took place decades ago and your side won. Wanting less migration is not the edgy anti establishment platform but just the norm. The conversations that are currently had is what is possible or not , and whether we should treat migrants as a bunch of subhumans or not.

I know people do not actually read political platform but this is basic stuff.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

80% of people don't want more immigration and that's been true since the question has been polled by Gallup. If you're a political party, you shouldn't be for things 80% of the population doesn't want. It's not that difficult.

You've definitely lost the thread about who you're arguing with about what. Your response has nothing to do with what I'm making fun of you over.

 

[Agema]

80% of the populations do not believe migration should be increased.

These figures are almost always misleading.

If you set an incredibly broad question "Do you think immigration should be reduced", the person asked with then have to supply their own context. If you push narratives about illegals pouring over the border then chances are people will consider immigration negatively. If you push stories about immigrants doing vital jobs in key industries, chances are people will consider immigration positively.

You can observe this by breaking down questions to more specific, granular information like:
"Do you think illegal / legal immigration should be reduced?"
"Do you support immigration for workers in healthcare?"
"Do you support immigration for workers in tech?
etc.

What you generally find is that the hardcore who just don't want any immigrants is small. Then, broadly, most people are happy with immigration as long as the immigrants are doing something societally useful - and obviously the more valuable the work the more immigration is favoured. Likewise people may discriminate heavily based on cultural and racial factors. Chances are some Americans who oppose immigration might be much more favourable if immigrants were white, European Christians.

 

[tstorm823]

Chances are some Americans who oppose immigration might be much more favourable if immigrants were white, European Christians.

White and European is just you projecting imaginary racism.

Christian and English-speaking are factors people actively value, yes.

 

[Agema]

White and European is just you projecting imaginary racism.

European reflects cultural values, as the USA and European countries share a great number of similar values, plus that the USA has plenty of experience of Germans, French, Italians, Scandinavians previously migrating in and integrating with the British heritage majority.

As for white, proposing that race is not a factor in some Americans' thinking merely makes you look like a buffoon. It's not just the direct racism of outright racists, it's the indirect racism: that skin colour inevitably prompts some people to make assumptions about religion, culture, language, education etc.

 

[Hades]

So if that Hanta virus spreads any further our American friends are pretty much fucked. But aside from Trump having deliberately mishandled a pandemic last time its also going to be Kennedy of all people that will be tasked to handle the outbreak.

All that would stand between American citizens and a virus is the guy that devoted his political career to ruining American health. Which was something every American knew when they voted for Trump.

I doubt Hanta will be that big but I do not envy those stuck with Kennedy should it ever become big.

 

[Hades]

Christian and English-speaking are factors people actively value, yes.

Personally I would vallue them being secular much more.

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Another American outpost they fund to maintain brutal opporesionn of the lower classes and constant state killings including your god fearing US citizens just for the power and the money (and the future war with china the insufferable terrorist police state has been obsessed with for as long as I remember) - avoids scrutiny in pretty much any mainstream news media outlet I could find. Should add it's a bipartisan support project across parties and western governments. Like all this demon shit is

 

[XsjadoBlayde]

Some interesting information betwixt Iranian and western relations more useful to those who still believe they must've been born on the same abstraction of a rock and ever-changing laws as an even more abstract interpretation of "the good guys"

We’re joined by former U.S. diplomat Josef Burton to examine modern Pahlavism: an online, diaspora-driven movement built around nostalgia for Iran’s deposed Pahlavi dynasty and the imagined restoration of Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi. What was once a marginal exile politics of royalist uncles, former regime officials, and anti–Islamic Republic hawks has, in the past decade, been transformed into a bizarre right-populist scene. It’s part monarchist revival, part regime-change lobby, part “Make Iran Great Again” fandom.

Josef traces how this movement emerged from the trauma and politics of the Iranian diaspora, then accelerated through Persian-language satellite TV, social media influencers, think tanks, bot campaigns, and the broader ecosystem of neoconservative, Israeli, Gulf State, and MAGA-aligned regime-change politics. Pahlavism presents itself as the authentic voice of Iranians, but often functions more like an astroturfed culture-war identity: anti-regime, pro-Western intervention, aggressively nostalgic for a whitewashed “Iran before the revolution,” and hostile toward Iranian dissidents who favor diplomacy, pluralism, or any future not centered on the Pahlavi name.

The movement has started to resemble a QAnon-style political subculture: very online, retribution-focused, conspiratorial, obsessed with hidden agents and imminent deliverance, and convinced that posting, doxxing, street theater, and displays of loyalty are forms of revolutionary action. But unlike QAnon, modern Pahlavism’s fantasy of “the storm” has been tied to real intelligence networks, real lobbying money, and real military escalation. When the long-promised war finally arrived and failed to produce a restored monarchy, the movement was left to cope with betrayal, humiliation, factional infighting, and increasingly bizarre displays of royalist devotion.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Doesn't answer my questions, but ok, just keep offering platitudes.

You question was conditional and I answered it.

80% of the populations do not believe migration should be increased. You know what else has about a 80% rate of not wanting immigration to increase? Political parties. Establishment parties. Left wing parties. They nearly ALL have in their programs wishes and plans to reduce migration.

The conversation is not about that. That part of the conversation took place decades ago and your side won. Wanting less migration is not the edgy anti establishment platform but just the norm. The conversations that are currently had is what is possible or not , and whether we should treat migrants as a bunch of subhumans or not.

I know people do not actually read political platform but this is basic stuff.

Majority of people do not want less immigration, that is literally not what the poll says. Also, most cities, as in, have housing costs that are too high, bringing in more people to those cities will only increase the price of housing. You can't just bring in more people and have it magically work out. People don't view immigrants as subhumans. Say a friend asked to move into my place and I said no, that doesn't mean I view that friend as subhuman.