The Rise of Invisible Stalker
- Thread starter Encaen
- Start date
Nicely written article on the rise of mage-blade and delver decks in general. On what card is going to be going into it from Dark Ascension the most likely candidate is Thought Scour [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262838]
It's an additional instant speed card draw that let's you filter off the top two cards of your library aswell for example if you saw a dead card in upkeep from delver (even if it was something to make it flip) you can graveyard it and hopefully draw something a little better.
Answer to the question of the week
I'm 85% sure on that.
It's an additional instant speed card draw that let's you filter off the top two cards of your library aswell for example if you saw a dead card in upkeep from delver (even if it was something to make it flip) you can graveyard it and hopefully draw something a little better.
Answer to the question of the week
1. Check to see if you have priority
2. Announce you're playing a spell
3. Place spell, or copy of spell, on the stack
4. Announce any modal choices such as splicing (reveal the spliced card at this time) or if any kicker, buyback or X costs will be paid
5. Choose targets
6. Choose divisions of things if needed ie with Fireball
7. Determine total cost of the spell and lock it in.
8. Pay the total costs in any order.
9. Place any triggers that result from the casting of a spell on the stack (Storm etc)
10. Announce you're passing priority to your opponent
11. If both you and your opponent pass priority consecutively resolve topmost stack item
12. Repeat 10-11 until the tack is cleared
13. You have now cast a spell!
2. Announce you're playing a spell
3. Place spell, or copy of spell, on the stack
4. Announce any modal choices such as splicing (reveal the spliced card at this time) or if any kicker, buyback or X costs will be paid
5. Choose targets
6. Choose divisions of things if needed ie with Fireball
7. Determine total cost of the spell and lock it in.
8. Pay the total costs in any order.
9. Place any triggers that result from the casting of a spell on the stack (Storm etc)
10. Announce you're passing priority to your opponent
11. If both you and your opponent pass priority consecutively resolve topmost stack item
12. Repeat 10-11 until the tack is cleared
13. You have now cast a spell!
I'm 85% sure on that.
Wow. The jargon-level of this article is so high my n00by brain just exploded. Any chance of a supplementary article explaining the game/issue for novices?
Sure, I'll be happy to do some supplementals here in the forums if you wouldn't mind letting me know where I lost you in the article. I'm happy to elaborate on whatever you need!EvilPicnic said:
Yep, you've got all of the requisite steps, to be sure, plus some really handy extras like Step 1. Check to see if you have Priority. I still see occasional errant removal getting thrown around in my playgroup without priority which tends to result in a long-winded re-explanation of how priority works. I may try to introduce this step to spellcasting locally and I'll be posting my list later today.TheGuy(wantstobe) said:
Also, I hadn't really considered Thought Scour until now, but it plays well with Delver, Ponder, and Pike which makes up almost 20% of the deck. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this!
Something else I'm really liking is Tragic Slip, though obviously not for Mage-Blade. It's only been a few days and I've already lost a half dozen Titans to it, so I know it's powerful. I'm just keen to see if it gets adopted in Standard at large, or if it'll be fringe.
I got a question for your next article. I can only guess from what you implied, it will be about the stack, priority and how abilities and spells are resolved.
Look at the ruling for http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222007
According to the ruling, it can be used to permanently exile a creature by abusing the stack. Cast a spell like http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=245296 when the banishment ability is already on the stack but hasn't resolved yet and the other creature will be exiled permanently.
What is your thought on this? Obviously it is exactly how the stack works, according to the rules/ruling.
However, personally I think this is borderline abuse of broken/buggy game mechanics. It could be used to highlight some of the problems of the stack.
About the Invisible Stalker... yeah, it is a really strong card and it synergizes very well with many equipments of Innistrad/DKA.
Look at the ruling for http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=222007
According to the ruling, it can be used to permanently exile a creature by abusing the stack. Cast a spell like http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=245296 when the banishment ability is already on the stack but hasn't resolved yet and the other creature will be exiled permanently.
What is your thought on this? Obviously it is exactly how the stack works, according to the rules/ruling.
However, personally I think this is borderline abuse of broken/buggy game mechanics. It could be used to highlight some of the problems of the stack.
About the Invisible Stalker... yeah, it is a really strong card and it synergizes very well with many equipments of Innistrad/DKA.
I have a question:
Does alternate ways to cast spells (like from graveyard with flashback) interact with the ongoing effect of Null Profusion [http://magiccards.info/pc/en/89.html] and allow you to draw a card? I reckon it would, but people argued that casting these cards in such a way is not playing then, but using an ability in them. What is right?
Does alternate ways to cast spells (like from graveyard with flashback) interact with the ongoing effect of Null Profusion [http://magiccards.info/pc/en/89.html] and allow you to draw a card? I reckon it would, but people argued that casting these cards in such a way is not playing then, but using an ability in them. What is right?
You still get to draw. Null Profusion checks whenever something changes, whether it uses the stack or not. It asks these two questions of the change and if you get a yes to both of them you draw a card:SandroTheMaster said:
1. Are you a card? If yes go to 2. This means it won't trigger off of copies of spells etc
2. Were you played? The only times this won't be a yes is for things like the creature entering the battlefield from quicksilver amulet, through the breach and other such effects that bypass a card being played and it just going onto the battlefield.
It doesn't care about where the card was before it was played or how it was paid for so flashback etc don't matter as it is still a spell and flashback is an alternate cost (specifically two replacement effects, one for the total cost of the spell before any kickers,X etc and another to make it go the graveyard after it leaves the stack). It also triggers each time you play a land.
Ahhh Tragic Slip. Easily the best common removal spell in standard right now. I expect it to see a lot of play at the Pro Tour this weekend in UB control, Esper Control, Conley ramp and Mono black Zombies that I reckon at least one of the Channel Fireball team will play because like you say it destroys Titans and Inkmoths and Delvers (oh my!). I've been trading for foil ones at about £2.50 each the past week along with foil Black and Sanctuary cats (those ones simply because I want a page of nothing but cats foil cats with Zombie ones on the reverse in my trade folder).Encaen said:
edit: And yeah with the priority stuff. It usually happens to me after I've put a spell on the stack and am wondering whether to put another on there before shipping priority when they just mana leak. I've started reminding them they can't do that yet and end up playing around what they've just tried to do and altering my plans around it on the fly.
As a Johnny I have to say that this isn't that broken/abusive. There are many, many more abusive ways to bend the rules so much they look like pretzels in the game and half the fun of brewing up a good deck for me is figuring out exactly how the pieces slot together to go nuts. For example Sudden Dissapearance [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=262865] + Sundial of the infinite [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228118] does it to all your opponents creatures, and oany other non land card they have to boot. Knowledge pool [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214035] + Curse of Exhaustion [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=226729] + Grafdigger's cage (If facing ancient grudges) prevents your opponent from ever playing a spell... ever. Went 5-0 at last week's FNM with this in a U/W Control shell.rofltehcat said:
You are right though in that some combos can be unfun and Wizards does try to prevent them from coming into being but sometimes card interactions sneak past them like Splinter twin/Deciever Exarch and Past in Flames/Storm do and are found by players like me who adore things like this.
Actually, I think wizards like putting in "broken" combos in the game. As you said, you enjoy finding these combos, and you're definitely not alone; finding weird/awesome combos is definitely a part of the game.
Also, invisible stalker+Butcher's cleaver is the most degenerate combo there is in limited. 8 points of lifeswing per turn? Yes please.
Also, invisible stalker+Butcher's cleaver is the most degenerate combo there is in limited. 8 points of lifeswing per turn? Yes please.
I think the only thing is in a limited environment like DKA sealed or the current draft format you can exile two creatures permanently and a third semi permanently with just those two cards. Like most things though, in constructed there are just cheaper/more efficient ways to do it already.Slycne said:
No offense to your title of course, but Hexproof is definitely my least favorite mechanic in Magic right now. At least with shroud there was a penalty for shutting down the large majority of removal spells.
With the popularity of hexproof and indestructible, they might as well make cards that say "X can't leave the battlefield", you wouldn't want new players to be worried about removal or anything. -__-
Sorry, just pointlessly ranting. Good article, keep it up.
With the popularity of hexproof and indestructible, they might as well make cards that say "X can't leave the battlefield", you wouldn't want new players to be worried about removal or anything. -__-
Sorry, just pointlessly ranting. Good article, keep it up.
I actually really like this kind of interaction, as it fosters knowledge of the subtleties of the game. If you know how the details play out, you can draw more advanced conclusions about interactions from them, so it rewards this kind of wisdom. As you said, once you've read through it, this is exactly how the Stack works. It's definitely abusing the mechanics, but to that end, Sundial of the Infinite [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=228118] is basically a card that does nothing but abuse mechanics!rofltehcat said:
Also, as promised, here's my answer to the Question of the Week. It doesn't acronym well, like "DEBT" for protections (Damage, Enchant/Equip, Blocking, Targeting, in case you're not familiar.) so we've got AMT-DCP (Announce, Modes, Targets, Division, Cost, Payment)
1) Announce the spell, move the card/copy to the top of the Stack
2) Choose Modes/Declare Variable or Alternative Costs being used ie. (X)/Kicker/Buyback
3) Choose Targets
4) Announce Division/distribution (counters, damage, etc.)
5) Determine and 'lock in' the Total Cost
6) Pay the Total Cost in any order
2) Choose Modes/Declare Variable or Alternative Costs being used ie. (X)/Kicker/Buyback
3) Choose Targets
4) Announce Division/distribution (counters, damage, etc.)
5) Determine and 'lock in' the Total Cost
6) Pay the Total Cost in any order
Sadly not article-related, but a question I have nonetheless; I'm currently building a casual deck built around Undead Alchemist [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=244684] and Lich Lord of Unx [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179555]. Aside from "zombies", "the obvious milling cards", and "counterspells 'cause you're playing blue", are there any cards you can suggest that might prove interesting? Thanks in advance.
I'm with you. Whenever someone across me summons the Invisible Stalker I just sigh and groan a lot. If he gets something out that leaves all my threats helpless and incapable of attacking him, he can just pummel me into submission in 2-3 turns with a creature I literally can't do anything against short of a wipe that'll harm me a whole lot more than him. Then he only needs to cast summon another Invisible Stalker and re-equip.Glass Joe the Champ said:No offense to your title of course, but Hexproof is definitely my least favorite mechanic in Magic right now. At least with shroud there was a penalty for shutting down the large majority of removal spells.
With the popularity of hexproof and indestructible, they might as well make cards that say "X can't leave the battlefield", you wouldn't want new players to be worried about removal or anything. -__-
Sorry, just pointlessly ranting. Good article, keep it up.
This is a trend since artifacts came into play. Since then, enchant creatures pretty much became obsolete since investing heavily into a creature became relatively risk-free, since you'd preserve everything that was making it strong if it was removed from play somehow.
Then that wasn't enough and they came up with indestructible. Now you barely had to worry about that important creature of yours be destroyed, since your opponent could only deal with it by using specialized removals that are thoroughly inefficient (especially if you were black, that somehow lately have just given its place as the removal deck to white, with more efficient, more permanent and more versatile removals).
After that they came up with shroud. Now you can't even target the damn thing. You can't weaken it, you can't prevent it, you can just suck it. But at least it was a creature that only functioned on its own, the enemy couldn't save it if you surprised it somehow with your own shannenigans with your creatures. If that ground-bound creature of yours could suddenly fly to catch that shrouded peacock or whatever it was going to graveyard. Goodbye. It was a threat you could calculate what it'd cost you and you knew you could deal with it without the opponent say.
Then Hexproof. Now, you're just fucked. You can't do anything about it, they're somehow more efficient than shrouded creatures off the bat, and they can be equipped, enchanted, enhanced and assisted by their owners at their leisure. No more must green worry about Blue simply stealing a creature if they make it too big. Mindlessly bloodgeoning is now not only possible, but somehow encouraged.
Its just like protection! But without any of the limitations and negatives! Except it can die in combat, but if you can affect it with your spells and it is getting into combat anyway, you're a moron.
I worry WotC will simply come up with an effect like what you say... except a creature that simply can't leave the battlefield is still worse than one with hexproof. At least you can render it impotent with Pacify or permanent -x/-0 or keeping it tapped or something.
I personally like the name. It means that these articles can never stop unless something major happens, like the Escapist suddenly disappearing.Glass Joe the Champ said:No offense to your title of course, but Hexproof is definitely my least favorite mechanic in Magic right now. At least with shroud there was a penalty for shutting down the large majority of removal spells.
With the popularity of hexproof and indestructible, they might as well make cards that say "X can't leave the battlefield", you wouldn't want new players to be worried about removal or anything. -__-
Sorry, just pointlessly ranting. Good article, keep it up.
601.2a The player announces that he or she is casting the spell. That card (or that copy of a card) moves from where it is to the stack. It becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has all the characteristics of the card (or the copy of a card) associated with it, and that player becomes its controller. The spell remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.45), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can't apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an Manax.gif in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be Mana0.gif. It can't be reduced to less than Mana0.gif. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2f If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a?g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
601.2b If the spell is modal the player announces the mode choice (see rule 700.2). If the player wishes to splice any cards onto the spell (see rule 702.45), he or she reveals those cards in his or her hand. If the spell has alternative or additional costs that will be paid as it's being cast such as buyback, kicker, or convoke costs (see rules 117.8 and 117.9), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 601.2e). A player can't apply two alternative methods of casting or two alternative costs to a single spell. If the spell has a variable cost that will be paid as it's being cast (such as an Manax.gif in its mana cost; see rule 107.3), the player announces the value of that variable. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes hybrid mana symbols, the player announces the nonhybrid equivalent cost he or she intends to pay. If a cost that will be paid as the spell is being cast includes Phyrexian mana symbols, the player announces whether he or she intends to pay 2 life or the corresponding colored mana cost for each of those symbols. Previously made choices (such as choosing to cast a spell with flashback from a graveyard or choosing to cast a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.
601.2c The player announces his or her choice of an appropriate player, object, or zone for each target the spell requires. A spell may require some targets only if an alternative or additional cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost), or a particular mode, was chosen for it; otherwise, the spell is cast as though it did not require those targets. If the spell has a variable number of targets, the player announces how many targets he or she will choose before he or she announces those targets. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell. However, if the spell uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object, player, or zone can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria). If any effects say that an object or player must be chosen as a target, the player chooses targets so that he or she obeys the maximum possible number of such effects without violating any rules or effects that say that an object or player can't be chosen as a target. The chosen players, objects, and/or zones each become a target of that spell. (Any abilities that trigger when those players, objects, and/or zones become the target of a spell trigger at this point; they'll wait to be put on the stack until the spell has finished being cast.)
601.2d If the spell requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, the player announces the division. Each of these targets must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.
601.2e The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be Mana0.gif. It can't be reduced to less than Mana0.gif. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.
601.2f If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to activate mana abilities (see rule 605, "Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be activated before costs are paid.
601.2g The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed. Unpayable costs can't be paid.
601.2h Once the steps described in 601.2a?g are completed, the spell becomes cast. Any abilities that trigger when a spell is cast or put onto the stack trigger at this time. If the spell's controller had priority before casting it, he or she gets priority.
And that's why I always have a tab open with the comprehensive rules.
As far as Stalker goes, I've been having a bunch of fun with him and Delver in an Elbrus/Stoneforge deck. Turn 3 is usually when Elbrus connects so it's pretty damn fast.
Shroud came out a long time before hexproof and indestructible. Also, ever since we got Tragic Slip for black, killing indestructible things is as easy as chump blocking with your 0-drop and spending B.SandroTheMaster said:
I'm going to try as hard as I can not to rant about how terrible Invisible Stalker is as a card....OK I can't take it.
There is no fucking way to beat T2 Stalker, T3 Cleaver in draft other than having the rolling tremblor and 3 lands IN HAND to start the game. Whoever decided to make an absolutely unstoppable bomb when combined with any of 10 different cards in the draft environment at UNCOMMON is evil beyond belief.
I really don't care much in Standard. 2 Geth's Verdicts, 2 Black Sun's Zeniths, and 2 Day of Judgements (plus Oblivion rings for swords and the like) keep me pretty well covered.
That said, I'm building a new Standard deck, I haven't gotten it hammered out yet (still trying to put together the cards for it and I've really only spent about an hour thinking about it), but it's going to be fun!
It's a very rough list. Basic gameplan is to drop a couple of Rites mill them out with Increasing Confusion, Blue Sun's Zenith, and Undead Alchemist; while surviving with a ton of Fog effects and recursion. If I had more than one Jace I'd put another in there, and I put in Dissipates as the only counterspells because I'm basically draw/go until I get huge amounts of mana and I want to exile those pesky flashback cards.
Nihil Spellbombs in the sideboard nuke the Graveyard to prevent flashback shenanigans, and I have a creature package to bring in once they lose all their removal. Creeping Corrosion is there for this deck's worst matchup: Tempered Steel.
It seems like this deck cannot possibly lose against ramp or control, but aggro might be a bit more of a toss up.
There is no fucking way to beat T2 Stalker, T3 Cleaver in draft other than having the rolling tremblor and 3 lands IN HAND to start the game. Whoever decided to make an absolutely unstoppable bomb when combined with any of 10 different cards in the draft environment at UNCOMMON is evil beyond belief.
I really don't care much in Standard. 2 Geth's Verdicts, 2 Black Sun's Zeniths, and 2 Day of Judgements (plus Oblivion rings for swords and the like) keep me pretty well covered.
That said, I'm building a new Standard deck, I haven't gotten it hammered out yet (still trying to put together the cards for it and I've really only spent about an hour thinking about it), but it's going to be fun!
2x Undead Alchemist
4x Increasing Confusion
3x Rites of Flourishing
4x Fog
3x Moonmist
4x Clinging Mists
3x Noxious Revival
2x Memory's Journey
2x Elixir of Immortality
2x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Dissipate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Ghost Quarter
8x Islands
8x Forests
SIDBOARD:
3x Creeping Corrosion
4x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Primordial Hydra
2x Undead Alchemist
4x Increasing Confusion
3x Rites of Flourishing
4x Fog
3x Moonmist
4x Clinging Mists
3x Noxious Revival
2x Memory's Journey
2x Elixir of Immortality
2x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Dissipate
1x Jace, Memory Adept
4x Hinterland Harbor
4x Ghost Quarter
8x Islands
8x Forests
SIDBOARD:
3x Creeping Corrosion
4x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Primordial Hydra
2x Undead Alchemist
It's a very rough list. Basic gameplan is to drop a couple of Rites mill them out with Increasing Confusion, Blue Sun's Zenith, and Undead Alchemist; while surviving with a ton of Fog effects and recursion. If I had more than one Jace I'd put another in there, and I put in Dissipates as the only counterspells because I'm basically draw/go until I get huge amounts of mana and I want to exile those pesky flashback cards.
Nihil Spellbombs in the sideboard nuke the Graveyard to prevent flashback shenanigans, and I have a creature package to bring in once they lose all their removal. Creeping Corrosion is there for this deck's worst matchup: Tempered Steel.
It seems like this deck cannot possibly lose against ramp or control, but aggro might be a bit more of a toss up.
Invisible Stalker is likely the most ridiculous 2-drop blue since Blighted Agent [http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=214383] from New Phyrexia. The fact that it has hexproof is just absolutely ridiculous. A friend of mine plans to run it in his mill deck. Just slap a Trepidation Blade on it and you're good to go.