The Last of Us Originally Cast Tess as a Villain

[Cognimancer]

The Last of Us Originally Cast Tess as a Villain

The Last of Us went through a lot of revisions before settling on its final plot - including a major reversal of one of its main characters.

We've already seen that The Last of Us could have had a very different ending [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/125486-The-Last-of-Us-Almost-Had-a-Different-Ending-Spoilers], but it looks like the rest of the game's story saw some serious changes as well. If you haven't played the game, you should probably leave now - spoilers ahoy.

Tess is introduced as Joel's partner and only real friend early in the game, and her actions go a long way in providing his motivation for joining Ellie on her journey. However, in an early version of the script Joel betrayed Tess, causing her to follow him across the country seeking revenge. Eventually she would capture and torture Joel, and Ellie (who would have been more innocent, never having killed before) would shoot her to save Joel.

Obviously, this isn't how things play out in the game. It was changed to make sure Joel had a compelling reason to travel with Ellie, and because the climax of that plotline was scrapped when Naughty Dog decided to make Ellie less gun-shy. "We decided it wasn't going to be about the first time she killed someone," says creative director Neil Druckmann, "it was more about this coming of age story of the impact that the horrors of violence has on her over the course of the game." Ellie instead found an opportunity for dramatic growth in David's villainy later in the game.

Source: Video Gamer [http://www.videogamer.com/ps3/the_last_of_us/news/naughty_dog_discusses_the_last_of_us_original_story_ending_and_alternate_villain.html]

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[TilMorrow]

To be honest, this sounds far more interesting than what actually happened in The Last of Us. It would have certainly been better than how they used Tess in the end.

Spoiler

I'm talking about how they make out that Tess had been Joel's long time partner and that they had both been managing with getting past infected without getting killed up to the point that the game really starts. But as soon as Ellie comes along and they travel into the city that Tess gets infected during an attack, that you don't even see and is only alluded to when they reach the Fireflies rendezvous, because Joel had no reason to continue with the plot and with delivering Ellie unless they killed her off. Also the military just suddenly arriving seemed a bit of ridiculous and was a probable attempt by ND to try and get the player to not think about what was happening.

[sub]On a separate note, has anyone actually thought about how Joel and Tess are really Human Trafficking Ellie across the country and Ellie ends up developing a slight Stockholm Syndrome?[/sub]

 

[balladbird]

I'm torn on the matter. On one hand, this would have been a way more interesting relationship for Tess and Joel, and my general love of female villains who aren't waiting for the right man to make an honest woman out of them does kind of make me biased toward this.

on the other hand, I also understand why they changed it. Tess and Joel's obligation to her were the only things keeping him attached to Ellie in the early game, and him transporting her out of the goodness of his heart would have been completely out of character, so she was needed in that capacity for the narrative.

 

[Fox12]

This idea seems pretty brilliant, I'm a little sad it was cut. That said, I'm glad they made Ellie a little more willing to use a gun, just because I thought it fit her character better, and I'm tired of the squeaky clean female side kicks (Elizabeth). I also felt that the fight with David was far more compelling then this particular scene would have been, and I understand it added motivation to what they did. Too bad they couldn't fit all of it in, and make it work, because the idea is certainly compelling.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

[sub]On a separate note, has anyone actually thought about how Joel and Tess are really Human Trafficking Ellie across the country and Ellie ends up developing a slight Stockholm Syndrome?[/sub]

STFU, 2DEEP4U GOTY.

/terrible joke

Yeah, it is weird as hell.

On topic: I don't think The Last Of Us needed more "cynicism"(in quotes because as the game progresses the tone shifts from "realistically cynical" to "juvenile-level cynicism") so I'm glad that they scrapped this idea.

All they need to do know is make Joel & Ellie have more fun throughout the game and maybe then I would like it more.

 

[PBMcNair]

Sounds interesting. I think I prefer the script they went with though. Still, I wonder what the betrayal would have been ?

 

[The Wykydtron]

Considering how much I never really liked Tess from the start, that would have been pretty cool.

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess. I just want you to know why I never liked you. I mean, they even try to make people feel sorry for you by giving you some "heroic" one woman last stand thing to buy time. What a joke right? Also pretty funny how after all the drama she takes two people down before getting instagibbed buying about no more than 10 seconds of time. Hilarious.

I do take issue with how "dark" the game is. It's almost Witcher 2 level where they can't go two seconds without a rape joke or a swear word just to remind us on how "mature" and "deep" the game is. In TLoU's case, replace rape jokes with Joel/Tess/whoever the fuck shooting someone in the face. Literally that often and that consistent. Any time where they could easily talk things through or calm down and have a ch- nope he's shot them. Again.

 

[ReinWeisserRitter]

Yeah, making her the hideously obvious "so fucking dying for dramatic effect" character was a way better idea. Didn't have enough of those in that freaking game.

That said, the game was ham-handed enough without them bumbling through an attempt at this, so maybe we were better off.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

[sub]On a separate note, has anyone actually thought about how Joel and Tess are really Human Trafficking Ellie across the country and Ellie ends up developing a slight Stockholm Syndrome?[/sub]

Eh. Not really. They were taking Ellie to a place she wanted to go. That's not usually how the "bad" Human trafficking goes. If ya get what I mean.

That said, the cops showing up right at that one time was a bit too convenient. Plus, I know Joel, Tess, and Ellie killed a bunch of the "bad guys", but It was a bit odd how long they followed them, ya know? What with zombies everywhere and what not.

 

[Miss G.]

[sub]On a separate note, has anyone actually thought about how Joel and Tess are really Human Trafficking Ellie across the country and Ellie ends up developing a slight Stockholm Syndrome?[/sub]

And this is different from Marlene and her guys delivering her themselves to the slaughterhouse like they wanted to do barring the military foiling their plans, how? Marlene actually raised this girl since her mother died; I would think if their was any Stockholm Syndrome to be had, it's from Ellie thinking Marlene wasn't above doing something to her like this without her consent and also sending her with smugglers in the first place without even questioning Marlene's orders any further than 'I was close with his brother'. The way I see it she and Joel grew on each other, she even admits that everyone either leaves her or dies except for him.

 

[Erttheking]

Not gonna lie, that sounds like it would've been REALLY fucking dark.

Also from how black the world of the Last of Us is, villain is a bad word. Antagonist is better.

 

[Miss G.]

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess. I just want you to know why I never liked you. I mean, they even try to make people feel sorry for you by giving you some "heroic" one woman last stand thing to buy time. What a joke right? Also pretty funny how after all the drama she takes two people down before getting instagibbed buying about no more than 10 seconds of time. Hilarious.

I do take issue with how "dark" the game is. It's almost Witcher 2 level where they can't go two seconds without a rape joke or a swear word just to remind us on how "mature" and "deep" the game is. In TLoU's case, replace rape jokes with Joel/Tess/whoever the fuck shooting someone in the face. Literally that often and that consistent. Any time where they could easily talk things through or calm down and have a ch- nope he's shot them. Again.

I can understand not liking a character but I don't like how you're so quick to forget that Robert knew these two as they're business partners and not only double-crossed them first, but also sent 2 of his guys to kill her (while she was doing a completely unrelated job) in the first place. Sounds like he should've just told them he sold the guns but would get them another shipment a.s.a.p. instead of having others do his dirty work first, then acting like a victim when his plan didn't work, like a cartoon character backing away sheepishly after you sidestepped their trap and caught them. Tell me how politely you would deal with the other members of a group that jumped you only hours earlier. Specifically after you told them that you only wanted to pass and that your beef was only with the douche they were (apparently) bribed into protecting. I believe her when she said she might've given him that week to get back their stuff if he hadn't tried to kill her.

For the darkness, human history repeatedly shows that in times of extreme trouble and society's breakdown (e.g the dark ages or the Black Death), usually the value of human life tends to go down and comes back when the situation itself is better and a new order is put in place (if its a helpful one anyways). And in this world it has yet to get better. This isn't like other stories set a few days or a year in. This is 20 long years of hardship, people killing each other over ever dwindling resources like back in the cave man days, the near constant threat of the infected with no real end in sight, society crumbled at almost every level, and mankind no longer at the top of the food chain. Within the context of that world, especially to characters that were young or born around/after the time of the initial breakout, this is business as usual. No one is particularly heroic or evil in this game; just trying to live through to the next day.

As for shooting people, even if you ignore that Robert betrayed and tried to get them first, with the exception of asking a favor from Bill, a tussle with Henry and meeting up with his brother, every other human encounter had Joel fighting back in some form of retaliation. He goes somewhere with the intention of simply passing through and getting this job over with, then bandits/hunters see him and want to kill him and Ellie over what meager supplies they have (they've done it to others time and time again) or cannibals would've killed and strung them up like those bodies in the freezer for later consumption had he and Ellie not fought back. Even the 'supposedly trying-to-save-the-world' Fireflies, they see him frantically trying to revive a little girl and their first response is to command him to stop and shoot him dead if he refused, like that military guy in the prologue. They didn't change their minds upon learning he's the guy who went against nigh impossible odds (that they as a large organized group couldn't even handle without dropping like flies) to bring the girl they wanted to them. If Marlene hadn't said not to when they radio'd it in that they found a man and a little girl in need of assistance, that first time, that would've been the end of him and possibly Ellie if Marlene didn't hurry to confirm her identity.

Cut the guy some slack if the people he meets on this journey (minus a few exceptions) don't seem like the 'calmly talking things over' type, especially if you factor in that after they find that they've bit off more than they could chew when they decided to mess with you, when they beg to appeal your human nature, they use your hesitation as a chance to just continue trying to kill you for their own means. They show with Henry and Sam that Joel has the capacity to reason with strangers if they don't present themselves as killers first and (after Henry ditched them in the face of hunters) forgive, even when he doesn't want to because he knows if that situation was reversed, he would've ditched them to keep Ellie safe.

 

[The Wykydtron]

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess. I just want you to know why I never liked you. I mean, they even try to make people feel sorry for you by giving you some "heroic" one woman last stand thing to buy time. What a joke right? Also pretty funny how after all the drama she takes two people down before getting instagibbed buying about no more than 10 seconds of time. Hilarious.

I do take issue with how "dark" the game is. It's almost Witcher 2 level where they can't go two seconds without a rape joke or a swear word just to remind us on how "mature" and "deep" the game is. In TLoU's case, replace rape jokes with Joel/Tess/whoever the fuck shooting someone in the face. Literally that often and that consistent. Any time where they could easily talk things through or calm down and have a ch- nope he's shot them. Again.

I can understand not liking a character but I don't like how you're so quick to forget that Robert knew these two as they're business partners and not only double-crossed them first, but also sent 2 of his guys to kill her (while she was doing a completely unrelated job) in the first place. Sounds like he should've just told them he sold the guns but would get them another shipment a.s.a.p. instead of having others do his dirty work first, then acting like a victim when his plan didn't work, like a cartoon character backing away sheepishly after you sidestepped their trap and caught them. Tell me how politely you would deal with the other members of a group that jumped you only hours earlier. Specifically after you told them that you only wanted to pass and that your beef was only with the douche they were (apparently) bribed into protecting. I believe her when she said she might've given him that week to get back their stuff if he hadn't tried to kill her.

For the darkness, human history repeatedly shows that in times of extreme trouble and society's breakdown (e.g the dark ages or the Black Death), usually the value of human life tends to go down and comes back when the situation itself is better and a new order is put in place (if its a helpful one anyways). And in this world it has yet to get better. This isn't like other stories set a few days or a year in. This is 20 long years of hardship, people killing each other over ever dwindling resources like back in the cave man days, the near constant threat of the infected with no real end in sight, society crumbled at almost every level, and mankind no longer at the top of the food chain. Within the context of that world, especially to characters that were young or born around/after the time of the initial breakout, this is business as usual. No one is particularly heroic or evil in this game; just trying to live through to the next day.

As for shooting people, even if you ignore that Robert betrayed and tried to get them first, with the exception of asking a favor from Bill, a tussle with Henry and meeting up with his brother, every other human encounter had Joel fighting back in some form of retaliation. He goes somewhere with the intention of simply passing through and getting this job over with, then bandits/hunters see him and want to kill him and Ellie over what meager supplies they have (they've done it to others time and time again) or cannibals would've killed and strung them up like those bodies in the freezer for later consumption had he and Ellie not fought back. Even the 'supposedly trying-to-save-the-world' Fireflies, they see him frantically trying to revive a little girl and their first response is to command him to stop and shoot him dead if he refused, like that military guy in the prologue. They didn't change their minds upon learning he's the guy who went against nigh impossible odds (that they as a large organized group couldn't even handle without dropping like flies) to bring the girl they wanted to them. If Marlene hadn't said not to when they radio'd it in that they found a man and a little girl in need of assistance, that first time, that would've been the end of him and possibly Ellie if Marlene didn't hurry to confirm her identity.

Cut the guy some slack if the people he meets on this journey (minus a few exceptions) don't seem like the 'calmly talking things over' type, especially if you factor in that after they find that they've bit off more than they could chew when they decided to mess with you, when they beg to appeal your human nature, they use your hesitation as a chance to just continue trying to kill you for their own means. They show with Henry and Sam that Joel has the capacity to reason with strangers if they don't present themselves as killers first and (after Henry ditched them in the face of hunters) forgive, even when he doesn't want to because he knows if that situation was reversed, he would've ditched them to keep Ellie safe.

I'm skeptical over Robert because it's a classic case of tell don't show. Y'know the first thing they tell you what to not do in story making class? We get literally Tess walking in with a black eye, a quick story then it's off to Vengeance Land. I know that entire bit is the excuse to introduce Ellie but it's still a little bit annoying.

As for the general mood of the game being "kill first, eat body second," call me hopelessly naive but I think the entire TLoU universe clashes with my entire being. As in there is no way I could ever believe in a human race that far gone with not even the barest hint of recuperation for twenty years, no matter how many times people throw (perfectly valid) justifications at me. I suppose i'm just too nice.

As for Tess, that one scene I go on about? Y'know the one where Tess just raises her gun and shoots a guy in the face with no provocation at all. The moment she did that she was dead to me. Could not care less. Just... No. Fuck that and fuck you Tess.

Just on the side, was this hilarious clicky fungus worldwide or is there just a giant quarantine around America? They stick to the good old "America = World" logic. I know it's a character story but come on, you build the overall world a decent amount I would like a simple yes/no. A fungus that reduces America into a post-apocalyptic wasteland would be rather important to the rest of the world no? They really need to introduce the concept of foreign aid over there.

 

[Miss G.]

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess. I just want you to know why I never liked you. I mean, they even try to make people feel sorry for you by giving you some "heroic" one woman last stand thing to buy time. What a joke right? Also pretty funny how after all the drama she takes two people down before getting instagibbed buying about no more than 10 seconds of time. Hilarious.

I do take issue with how "dark" the game is. It's almost Witcher 2 level where they can't go two seconds without a rape joke or a swear word just to remind us on how "mature" and "deep" the game is. In TLoU's case, replace rape jokes with Joel/Tess/whoever the fuck shooting someone in the face. Literally that often and that consistent. Any time where they could easily talk things through or calm down and have a ch- nope he's shot them. Again.

I can understand not liking a character but I don't like how you're so quick to forget that Robert knew these two as they're business partners and not only double-crossed them first, but also sent 2 of his guys to kill her (while she was doing a completely unrelated job) in the first place. Sounds like he should've just told them he sold the guns but would get them another shipment a.s.a.p. instead of having others do his dirty work first, then acting like a victim when his plan didn't work, like a cartoon character backing away sheepishly after you sidestepped their trap and caught them. Tell me how politely you would deal with the other members of a group that jumped you only hours earlier. Specifically after you told them that you only wanted to pass and that your beef was only with the douche they were (apparently) bribed into protecting. I believe her when she said she might've given him that week to get back their stuff if he hadn't tried to kill her.

For the darkness, human history repeatedly shows that in times of extreme trouble and society's breakdown (e.g the dark ages or the Black Death), usually the value of human life tends to go down and comes back when the situation itself is better and a new order is put in place (if its a helpful one anyways). And in this world it has yet to get better. This isn't like other stories set a few days or a year in. This is 20 long years of hardship, people killing each other over ever dwindling resources like back in the cave man days, the near constant threat of the infected with no real end in sight, society crumbled at almost every level, and mankind no longer at the top of the food chain. Within the context of that world, especially to characters that were young or born around/after the time of the initial breakout, this is business as usual. No one is particularly heroic or evil in this game; just trying to live through to the next day.

As for shooting people, even if you ignore that Robert betrayed and tried to get them first, with the exception of asking a favor from Bill, a tussle with Henry and meeting up with his brother, every other human encounter had Joel fighting back in some form of retaliation. He goes somewhere with the intention of simply passing through and getting this job over with, then bandits/hunters see him and want to kill him and Ellie over what meager supplies they have (they've done it to others time and time again) or cannibals would've killed and strung them up like those bodies in the freezer for later consumption had he and Ellie not fought back. Even the 'supposedly trying-to-save-the-world' Fireflies, they see him frantically trying to revive a little girl and their first response is to command him to stop and shoot him dead if he refused, like that military guy in the prologue. They didn't change their minds upon learning he's the guy who went against nigh impossible odds (that they as a large organized group couldn't even handle without dropping like flies) to bring the girl they wanted to them. If Marlene hadn't said not to when they radio'd it in that they found a man and a little girl in need of assistance, that first time, that would've been the end of him and possibly Ellie if Marlene didn't hurry to confirm her identity.

Cut the guy some slack if the people he meets on this journey (minus a few exceptions) don't seem like the 'calmly talking things over' type, especially if you factor in that after they find that they've bit off more than they could chew when they decided to mess with you, when they beg to appeal your human nature, they use your hesitation as a chance to just continue trying to kill you for their own means. They show with Henry and Sam that Joel has the capacity to reason with strangers if they don't present themselves as killers first and (after Henry ditched them in the face of hunters) forgive, even when he doesn't want to because he knows if that situation was reversed, he would've ditched them to keep Ellie safe.

I'm skeptical over Robert because it's a classic case of tell don't show. Y'know the first thing they tell you what to not do in story making class? We get literally Tess walking in with a black eye, a quick story then it's off to Vengeance Land. I know that entire bit is the excuse to introduce Ellie but it's still a little bit annoying.

As for the general mood of the game being "kill first, eat body second," call me hopelessly naive but I think the entire TLoU universe clashes with my entire being. As in there is no way I could ever believe in a human race that far gone with not even the barest hint of recuperation for twenty years, no matter how many times people throw (perfectly valid) justifications at me. I suppose i'm just too nice.

As for Tess, that one scene I go on about? Y'know the one where Tess just raises her gun and shoots a guy in the face with no provocation at all. The moment she did that she was dead to me. Could not care less. Just... No. Fuck that and fuck you Tess.

Just on the side, was this hilarious clicky fungus worldwide or is there just a giant quarantine around America? They stick to the good old "America = World" logic. I know it's a character story but come on, you build the overall world a decent amount I would like a simple yes/no. A fungus that reduces America into a post-apocalyptic wasteland would be rather important to the rest of the world no? They really need to introduce the concept of foreign aid over there.

Mind you, I'm playing New Game+ right now so the information is more fresh in my head. Like it said in the trailer, 'you can live by your morals and die, or do whatever it takes to survive.' In extreme situations people loot, kill, cannibalize to get by. Some may resist, because even with cannibalism in these cases some choose to starve because they have their morals and they will stick to them while others want to live to hopefully make it to a better situation. You don't have to look far back into history to see that, and if the bad situation didn't let up for decades, naive as I am, I'd be hard pressed to think that, if I didn't die soon after the initial outbreak, I'd be what would be considered sane when I'd be about 44 in-game time. Imagine what happened in Leningrad when its people were trapped behind a siege of Nazis and everyone started eating the children, the infirm and whoever died in the street the night before because there were little to no resources, then imagine a plague that isn't short-lived like Spanish Influenza/Black Death on top of that, then imagine that the situation was happening across the globe effectively cutting off help and the enemy kept up the siege for 20 years and was still going strong. In the real life situation, it was an extreme survival of the fittest thing for 3 years before they got help. It was one of the longest and most destructive sieges in history and overwhelmingly the most costly in terms of casualties. Help isn't coming in the world of the Last of Us (at least not for a while, if it can be achieved) and people have just learned to deal with it or since children have been born since, it was the only world they knew to begin with.

There's nothing stopping you from looking at the newspapers and other things that tell more than the characters are saying about the world they inhabit. Just like with Bioshock Infinite, you can breeze right past it without experiencing any of it. The characters also mention things that you can miss if you don't press the triangle before it times-out, like the military bombing heavily infected areas and for a time, mowing down people indiscriminately (like what almost happened to Joel in the prologue) because they couldn't confirm at the time between infected and non-infected, but to no avail. As for Robert and the guys he hired, if you wait and listen to the dialogue before you do the 1st team choke-out with Tess, the guys say they lost 2 of their men trying to kill Tess, thus confirming what she said and just a little later, their note saying that they were conveniently 'saved' by Robert when their ship was somehow discovered by the F.E.D.R.A and Robert's fast talking got them out of the situation but left them with less cargo, thus they owed him one.

The World Health Organization and other countries are mentioned through newspaper clippings in the sewers and in the university. They say that 60% of the world's population was either dead or infected around the time that the article took place (it's been years since news was printed, so who knows how many people are left in the world by the time you set out) and that militaries let people die if they were stranded in places deemed the middle of nowhere (like the university) or too risky to get to fairly soon after the attacks and that other countries tried closing up their borders once it was getting around to other places to reduce the spread, it didn't work. More than likely infected people were traveling at the time, like with any other mass-scale infectious thing like the plague and by closing the borders they unintentionally sealed the danger in with them. Its said that no one really knew what was really going on at the time so the mass hysteria certainly wasn't gonna help things.

 

[PBMcNair]

Considering how much I never really liked Tess from the start, that would have been pretty cool.

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess.

How is that a dick move ? It would have been 3 vs 2, talks a little, BOOM headshot, now its 2 vs 2.

Renegade interrupt. Not just for commander Shepard.

 

[erbkaiser]

I wonder if Tess and Marlene (the Firefly commander) were originally the same character.

On the topic of all these reveals, I'd really love to see an art/development book for TLOU along the likes of Half-Life 2: Raising the Bar.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I know that practically everyone is TLoU is a mass murderer but y'know randomly shooting a guy in the face for politely asking them to leave was a dick move of epic proportions Tess.

You mean the part where the goon says,"*****, I will smash you're skull in if you don't turn around right now!"

Doesn't quite give the impression of a polite individual, does it.

OT: It's an interesting story idea, IF they would've tweeked a few things about it. Instead of making Tess some vengeful ex-partner hunting them down, they could've made her some insane stalker obsessed with wanting to protect Ellie herself. Sorta like with that one crazy lady in Episode 2 of The Walking Dead. It would've also been a nice precursor to what happens to Joel in the end.

But when telling a story it's important to cut your lovelies when needed.

 

[TilMorrow]

Eh. Not really. They were taking Ellie to a place she wanted to go. That's not usually how the "bad" Human trafficking goes. If ya get what I mean.

That said, the cops showing up right at that one time was a bit too convenient. Plus, I know Joel, Tess, and Ellie killed a bunch of the "bad guys", but It was a bit odd how long they followed them, ya know? What with zombies everywhere and what not.

Well I wouldn't say that Ellie was a 100% on going to the Fireflies' base of operations (or settlement, whichever you prefer) but was going there more because Marlene told her to due to Ellie being immune and BS'ing that they could get a cure out of her (which was shown to be contrary and highly unlikely by the end of the game). Plus Ellie had been hanging around Marlene for awhile and would have thought she'd be correct in her judgement (barring the fact that Marlene had intentionally left out the titbit that they would have had to cut her head open to get anything done). But all the same since Human Trafficking is the actual term for any movement and trade of people as goods then Joel technically was doing that throughout the whole game because, let's face it, he and Tess agreed to moving Ellie, who was really a medical research subject in Marlene eye's, for the payment of guns and supplies from the Fireflies. Now the fact that Joel ended up getting emotionally attached To Ellie, as did Ellie to Joel since she clings to whoever sticks with her the longest, and did a complete turnabout on the deal was interesting to say the least.

Indeed it was odd. Why would the military waste precious resources, time and risk their lives tracking down three people who had left the settlement and were pretty much screwed when they stepped into the zombie infested ruins of the city? I hardly think revenge for two dead soldiers is a plausible reason to do that at all. Additionally how did they find them so easily?

And this is different from Marlene and her guys delivering her themselves to the slaughterhouse like they wanted to do barring the military foiling their plans, how? Marlene actually raised this girl since her mother died; I would think if their was any Stockholm Syndrome to be had, it's from Ellie thinking Marlene wasn't above doing something to her like this without her consent and also sending her with smugglers in the first place without even questioning Marlene's orders any further than 'I was close with his brother'. The way I see it she and Joel grew on each other, she even admits that everyone either leaves her or dies except for him.

I'm a bit lost on what you're referencing to as a 'slaughterhouse', unless I assume you're talking about the Fireflies' research base, but I never said it wasn't any different from Marlene trafficking Ellie herself. She still viewed Ellie as a research subject rather than a person after all. However the only reason I think she had someone else do it for her though is that she sucks at avoiding conflicts or basically getting shot (see injury when Marlene is first introduced and the fact she says everyone but her died on the way to the Fireflies' base when she is seen next. Why on earth is she the leader of the rebel group in the first place?!). Now I'm not sure if that fact about Marlene raising Ellie is actually true because Ellie contradicts it late in the game (*does some quick reading*) and it is not. Ellie was actually moved between homes after the death of her mother and doesn't actually come into contact with Marlene and looked after by her until she had become infected (which apparently happened three weeks before the events of the game start, and also raises the question of why Ellie would actually do what Marlene said in the first on the shaky basis that she may have known her mother). I wouldn't say the fact that Ellie going along with what Marlene told her to do is an example of Stockholm Syndrome but rather a defeatist view on her life at that point as post-infection she may have felt worthless after all that has happened and the idea that helping to create a cure would grant worth to her existence, reinforced by the flimsy truth that Marlene may have know her mother, seemed like a good direction to go for her at the time. When I said that Ellie developed a slight Stockholm Syndrome when being moved across the country by (or with, depending on your view) Joel, I'm talking about how she is in semi-imprisonment/self-imprisonment for the entire journey as even though she's free to leave at anytime, she stands a better chance of survival by sticking with Joel (in context, ignoring the fact in gameplay she is fucking invincible and a ninja which really did ruin the game), who ultimately viewed her as a package rather than a person. So rather than having a constant jaded personality towards Joel, Ellie grows attached to her pseudo-captor/saviour and shows sympathy towards his plight of transporting her as well as his past's dark and sombre memories whilst all the while Joel unintentionally shows her the worth of the life she has through all that takes place I the game.

And on an entirely related/unrelated note, that is why Ellie is really a Damsel-in-distress. *Drops the bomb*

 

[Miss G.]

Eh. Not really. They were taking Ellie to a place she wanted to go. That's not usually how the "bad" Human trafficking goes. If ya get what I mean.

That said, the cops showing up right at that one time was a bit too convenient. Plus, I know Joel, Tess, and Ellie killed a bunch of the "bad guys", but It was a bit odd how long they followed them, ya know? What with zombies everywhere and what not.

Well I wouldn't say that Ellie was a 100% on going to the Fireflies' base of operations (or settlement, whichever you prefer) but was going there more because Marlene told her to due to Ellie being immune and BS'ing that they could get a cure out of her (which was shown to be contrary and highly unlikely by the end of the game). Plus Ellie had been hanging around Marlene for awhile and would have thought she'd be correct in her judgement (barring the fact that Marlene had intentionally left out the titbit that they would have had to cut her head open to get anything done). But all the same since Human Trafficking is the actual term for any movement and trade of people as goods then Joel technically was doing that throughout the whole game because, let's face it, he and Tess agreed to moving Ellie, who was really a medical research subject in Marlene eye's, for the payment of guns and supplies from the Fireflies. Now the fact that Joel ended up getting emotionally attached To Ellie, as did Ellie to Joel since she clings to whoever sticks with her the longest, and did a complete turnabout on the deal was interesting to say the least.

Indeed it was odd. Why would the military waste precious resources, time and risk their lives tracking down three people who had left the settlement and were pretty much screwed when they stepped into the zombie infested ruins of the city? I hardly think revenge for two dead soldiers is a plausible reason to do that at all. Additionally how did they find them so easily?

And this is different from Marlene and her guys delivering her themselves to the slaughterhouse like they wanted to do barring the military foiling their plans, how? Marlene actually raised this girl since her mother died; I would think if their was any Stockholm Syndrome to be had, it's from Ellie thinking Marlene wasn't above doing something to her like this without her consent and also sending her with smugglers in the first place without even questioning Marlene's orders any further than 'I was close with his brother'. The way I see it she and Joel grew on each other, she even admits that everyone either leaves her or dies except for him.

I'm a bit lost on what you're referencing to as a 'slaughterhouse', unless I assume you're talking about the Fireflies' research base, but I never said it wasn't any different from Marlene trafficking Ellie herself. She still viewed Ellie as a research subject rather than a person after all. However the only reason I think she had someone else do it for her though is that she sucks at avoiding conflicts or basically getting shot (see injury when Marlene is first introduced and the fact she says everyone but her died on the way to the Fireflies' base when she is seen next. Why on earth is she the leader of the rebel group in the first place?!). Now I'm not sure if that fact about Marlene raising Ellie is actually true because Ellie contradicts it late in the game (*does some quick reading*) and it is not. Ellie was actually moved between homes after the death of her mother and doesn't actually come into contact with Marlene and looked after by her until she had become infected (which apparently happened three weeks before the events of the game start, and also raises the question of why Ellie would actually do what Marlene said in the first on the shaky basis that she may have known her mother). I wouldn't say the fact that Ellie going along with what Marlene told her to do is an example of Stockholm Syndrome but rather a defeatist view on her life at that point as post-infection she may have felt worthless after all that has happened and the idea that helping to create a cure would grant worth to her existence, reinforced by the flimsy truth that Marlene may have know her mother, seemed like a good direction to go for her at the time. When I said that Ellie developed a slight Stockholm Syndrome when being moved across the country by (or with, depending on your view) Joel, I'm talking about how she is in semi-imprisonment/self-imprisonment for the entire journey as even though she's free to leave at anytime, she stands a better chance of survival by sticking with Joel (in context, ignoring the fact in gameplay she is fucking invincible and a ninja which really did ruin the game), who ultimately viewed her as a package rather than a person. So rather than having a constant jaded personality towards Joel, Ellie grows attached to her pseudo-captor/saviour and shows sympathy towards his plight of transporting her as well as his past's dark and sombre memories whilst all the while Joel unintentionally shows her the worth of the life she has through all that takes place I the game.

And on an entirely related/unrelated note, that is why Ellie is really a Damsel-in-distress. *Drops the bomb*

Well you slaughter animals that you've raised for consumption at the slaughterhouse and they were gonna dissect a little girl they've made sure was well fed and in good health for human medical consumption in the form of a vaccine. Same-dif, to me. I think she wanted to go along with being a vaccine in the first place because she said she and her friend got bitten at the same time, but only she didn't turn and she may have wanted to prevent the same from happening to others to make it up to her best friend. Seems like she was dealing with survivor's guilt, especially since she had nothing but a curiosity-killed-the-cat excuse for being in an off-limits heavily infected area, when she went to Marlene.

I thought that Marlene raised her because Ellie's mom's note said that Ellie was a day old, her (Anna) life was about to be cut short, to listen to Marlene and try not to be stubborn like she was, and that Marlene would tell Ellie about her when she's old enough. Marlene even says she was with the girl since she was born and confirms she knew her mother. Ellie herself says Marlene's a friend who knew her mom and looks after her (Ellie) on the way to where Joel is taking her to wait for Tess to come back from verifying the weapons at the FireFly camp. That's what I got out of it.

As for gameplay-wise, I was playing on easy and she would get caught, so I can't say in my experience that she was that invincible. And on that same entirely related/unrelated note, I don't believe Ellie to be a pure damsel-in-distress just because she dealt with taking care of Joel and herself (and all that that entails) and stopping David all on her own.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Eh. Not really. They were taking Ellie to a place she wanted to go. That's not usually how the "bad" Human trafficking goes. If ya get what I mean.

That said, the cops showing up right at that one time was a bit too convenient. Plus, I know Joel, Tess, and Ellie killed a bunch of the "bad guys", but It was a bit odd how long they followed them, ya know? What with zombies everywhere and what not.

Well I wouldn't say that Ellie was a 100% on going to the Fireflies' base of operations (or settlement, whichever you prefer) but was going there more because Marlene told her to due to Ellie being immune and BS'ing that they could get a cure out of her (which was shown to be contrary and highly unlikely by the end of the game). Plus Ellie had been hanging around Marlene for awhile and would have thought she'd be correct in her judgement (barring the fact that Marlene had intentionally left out the titbit that they would have had to cut her head open to get anything done). But all the same since Human Trafficking is the actual term for any movement and trade of people as goods then Joel technically was doing that throughout the whole game because, let's face it, he and Tess agreed to moving Ellie, who was really a medical research subject in Marlene eye's, for the payment of guns and supplies from the Fireflies. Now the fact that Joel ended up getting emotionally attached To Ellie, as did Ellie to Joel since she clings to whoever sticks with her the longest, and did a complete turnabout on the deal was interesting to say the least.

Indeed it was odd. Why would the military waste precious resources, time and risk their lives tracking down three people who had left the settlement and were pretty much screwed when they stepped into the zombie infested ruins of the city? I hardly think revenge for two dead soldiers is a plausible reason to do that at all. Additionally how did they find them so easily?

And this is different from Marlene and her guys delivering her themselves to the slaughterhouse like they wanted to do barring the military foiling their plans, how? Marlene actually raised this girl since her mother died; I would think if their was any Stockholm Syndrome to be had, it's from Ellie thinking Marlene wasn't above doing something to her like this without her consent and also sending her with smugglers in the first place without even questioning Marlene's orders any further than 'I was close with his brother'. The way I see it she and Joel grew on each other, she even admits that everyone either leaves her or dies except for him.

Spoiler: How the bomb was made.

I'm a bit lost on what you're referencing to as a 'slaughterhouse', unless I assume you're talking about the Fireflies' research base, but I never said it wasn't any different from Marlene trafficking Ellie herself. She still viewed Ellie as a research subject rather than a person after all. However the only reason I think she had someone else do it for her though is that she sucks at avoiding conflicts or basically getting shot (see injury when Marlene is first introduced and the fact she says everyone but her died on the way to the Fireflies' base when she is seen next. Why on earth is she the leader of the rebel group in the first place?!). Now I'm not sure if that fact about Marlene raising Ellie is actually true because Ellie contradicts it late in the game (*does some quick reading*) and it is not. Ellie was actually moved between homes after the death of her mother and doesn't actually come into contact with Marlene and looked after by her until she had become infected (which apparently happened three weeks before the events of the game start, and also raises the question of why Ellie would actually do what Marlene said in the first on the shaky basis that she may have known her mother). I wouldn't say the fact that Ellie going along with what Marlene told her to do is an example of Stockholm Syndrome but rather a defeatist view on her life at that point as post-infection she may have felt worthless after all that has happened and the idea that helping to create a cure would grant worth to her existence, reinforced by the flimsy truth that Marlene may have know her mother, seemed like a good direction to go for her at the time. When I said that Ellie developed a slight Stockholm Syndrome when being moved across the country by (or with, depending on your view) Joel, I'm talking about how she is in semi-imprisonment/self-imprisonment for the entire journey as even though she's free to leave at anytime, she stands a better chance of survival by sticking with Joel (in context, ignoring the fact in gameplay she is fucking invincible and a ninja which really did ruin the game), who ultimately viewed her as a package rather than a person. So rather than having a constant jaded personality towards Joel, Ellie grows attached to her pseudo-captor/saviour and shows sympathy towards his plight of transporting her as well as his past's dark and sombre memories whilst all the while Joel unintentionally shows her the worth of the life she has through all that takes place I the game.

And on an entirely related/unrelated note, that is why Ellie is really a Damsel-in-distress. *Drops the bomb*

I see what you're getting at. Though I think calling it Stockholm Syndrome is something of a mislabeling. While Ellie may not have been 100% on going, she still was quite determined. She is immune after all, and knows first hand what that means

Spoiler: End game spoiler.

What with seeing her friend die while she herself continued to live when she got infected.

As for Ellie becoming close to Joel, well even though she is so young she has lost a lot in her life. That one thing in the spoiler, her Mom dying, and we don't even find out I think what happened to her dad. As she said, no one has stayed in her life for very long. So it makes sense that after coming to trust Joel she would become very attached to someone who may be the first person in her life to stay with her.
As for Joel. Skip the whole Ellie becoming like his daughter thing, and we still have the fact that Joel is very protective of the few people he becomes close to/can trust.
That's why I think you can't really call this Stockholm Syndrome. Because they both come to genially trust each other.

As for Marlene. While it's true she wasn't the best guardian(hence how Ellie came to be bitten) From the sound of things, while she wasn't always there, she was doing what she could to keep an eye on Ellie. Doing that while running a resistance group would be difficult.

As for if Marlene knew about what would have to be done before she sent Ellie over to the base? I'm not sure about that.
I have heard of the "other immune" before, but as of yet have not seen the evidence first hand.

Not that I don't think it could exist, but I have doubts. If Ellie wasn't the first, then why would the scientist in that log you find in the base sound so surprised, and act like this was the first time they were looking at an immune brain?

Even if he specifically hadn't seen it yet, like he was new to the group or something, I'd think they would let him in on the data they already had about the other immune.

As for Ellie being a "Damsel-in-distress"? Here and there in the game, maybe, but not for long and a lot of the time she saves herself(and others too).