Star Wars: This Is How You Defend The Ridiculous Crossguard Lightsaber
- Thread starter Rhykker
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All of you've really done is explain something we've known for a long time: that only force users can effectively use lightsabers as weapons. Obviously they have much greater control over their own reflexes (not to mention some pre-cognitive abilities) and thus can not chop off their own limbs.
Of course, it still makes Obi-wan a rather careless or negligent instructor as you pointed out.
Of course, it still makes Obi-wan a rather careless or negligent instructor as you pointed out.
4 winged dragons are totally a thing, also no winged dragons. How do they fly? Who the fuck cares, its a dragon. If I see a dragon in real life my first thought wont be "How in the hell do you fly with wings like that?" It'd be "Holy crap, its a dragon! Please be more Dragonheart and less Reign of Fire. Dragonheart, not Reign of Fire.
Same with Lightsabers. I'm not gonna wonder how in the hell they work. I'm gonna be spazzin about how cool it is that they exist and aren't extendin into infinity and murderin people by accident.
That bein said, I prefer Colbert's defense because its both less nerdy and yet more nerdy at the same time.
Same with Lightsabers. I'm not gonna wonder how in the hell they work. I'm gonna be spazzin about how cool it is that they exist and aren't extendin into infinity and murderin people by accident.
That bein said, I prefer Colbert's defense because its both less nerdy and yet more nerdy at the same time.
I just wanted to raise a point, what makes the balance of the sword. It's not really the weight of the grip, pommel and hilt, acting has a counter weight. It's mostly the shape of the blade that has the greatest influence on the balance point. The distal taper of the blade is quite important. A sword like a katana, cut oriented, with little distal taper will be more blade heavy than an Oakeshott type XV [http://www.albion-swords.com/images/swords/albion/nextGen/poitiers/poitiers1.jpg] which is a cut and thrust but slightly more adapted to the thrust (and half-swording). It's only when you go with really complex hilt, like basket hilt, that the hilt really start to play a bigger role in the balance.
My problem with the light saber in the trailer has nothing to do with it's design. It's the desperate cloying going on.
The architects of this trailer just seem so desperate to try and deliver the sense of excitement from that Darth Maul double bladed lightsaber reveal moment again. It's like the new Beetle from VW, let's repackage this thing that a lot of people liked and sell it back to them in a new package. I don't like pandering in general, but I really dislike it when it's in a Star Wars film.
And this isn't anything new either. Some of the other saber designs that have come along in the years between Darth Maul's reveal and today have been the same level of "PLEASE FEEL AWESOME LIKE THAT MOMENT IN TIME BETWEEN THE HOPE OF PHANTOM MENACE AND THE REALITY OF PHANTOM MENACE... REMEMBER HOW GREAT THAT WAS GUYS??? GUYS??? RIGHT????".
It just seems desperate in a way that I don't think it needs to be. The fact that the added plasma blades are absurd is irrelevant.
But that's just me. I know no one else seems to share this view, and that's fine. Maybe I'm way off base and over thinking it. And I'm still eager to see the movie so it's not like anything was really lost. It's just a brief moment that struck the wrong chord with me.
The architects of this trailer just seem so desperate to try and deliver the sense of excitement from that Darth Maul double bladed lightsaber reveal moment again. It's like the new Beetle from VW, let's repackage this thing that a lot of people liked and sell it back to them in a new package. I don't like pandering in general, but I really dislike it when it's in a Star Wars film.
And this isn't anything new either. Some of the other saber designs that have come along in the years between Darth Maul's reveal and today have been the same level of "PLEASE FEEL AWESOME LIKE THAT MOMENT IN TIME BETWEEN THE HOPE OF PHANTOM MENACE AND THE REALITY OF PHANTOM MENACE... REMEMBER HOW GREAT THAT WAS GUYS??? GUYS??? RIGHT????".
It just seems desperate in a way that I don't think it needs to be. The fact that the added plasma blades are absurd is irrelevant.
But that's just me. I know no one else seems to share this view, and that's fine. Maybe I'm way off base and over thinking it. And I'm still eager to see the movie so it's not like anything was really lost. It's just a brief moment that struck the wrong chord with me.
Let's also not forget that in Star Wars it's really not that uncommon to have a robotic prosthesis. Many of the EU stuff also had it set up to where a cyborg limb replacement was pretty common place. For all we know, most Padawan have lost their thumbs long before their silly braid gets tot he shoulder.micuu said:
From a purely Lore perspective there is also the whole "building your own lightsaber" and having it "reflect the nature of the wielder". For most Jedi the differences are slight. They value and instruct restraint and balance. Thus most of their lightsabers follow a traditional and functional design. Siths on the other hand encourage you to wallow in your emotions. So we see various design choices from Count Dookus more elegantly designed lightsaber to Darth Mauls dual-lightsaber. Both reflect the user, with Dooku being a very arrogant fighter, holding his lightsaber much like a conductors baton or a light thrusting weapon and Maul overwhelming his opponent with a flurry of brutal attacks struck in great rage but with total control.
It is however not a purely Sith thing. Look at Mace Windus purple lightsaber and lets not overlook likes own lightsaber. A simple utilitarian design. Add to that the different colors of lightsaber among the Jedi (in the RPGs these denote your class or focus).
So what does that tell us about this new sith? Well a cross-guard is primarily used to protect the users hand, but what options does it give to a highly trained individual? Well unlike the standard style of parry and recover, the crossguard allows him to follow through on his attacks without fear of a few missing fingers. At these situations where the blades are locked, the guard becomes a threat for his opponent. While not likely to be lethal the guard can be use to cut of fingers, injure arms or chest or any part of the enemies. Just slide the blade along the opponents blade and he is in trouble. Another option would be to using immaterial light to catch and hold the opponents blade. A parry and quick twist of the wrist and the opponents blade would be caught between you blade and the guard, making it easier to disarm your opponent. From these possibilities we can tell that the sith would be a tactical fighter. In other situations it is likely that they will choose to personally engage but will use any trick to gain the advantage.
It is however not a purely Sith thing. Look at Mace Windus purple lightsaber and lets not overlook likes own lightsaber. A simple utilitarian design. Add to that the different colors of lightsaber among the Jedi (in the RPGs these denote your class or focus).
So what does that tell us about this new sith? Well a cross-guard is primarily used to protect the users hand, but what options does it give to a highly trained individual? Well unlike the standard style of parry and recover, the crossguard allows him to follow through on his attacks without fear of a few missing fingers. At these situations where the blades are locked, the guard becomes a threat for his opponent. While not likely to be lethal the guard can be use to cut of fingers, injure arms or chest or any part of the enemies. Just slide the blade along the opponents blade and he is in trouble. Another option would be to using immaterial light to catch and hold the opponents blade. A parry and quick twist of the wrist and the opponents blade would be caught between you blade and the guard, making it easier to disarm your opponent. From these possibilities we can tell that the sith would be a tactical fighter. In other situations it is likely that they will choose to personally engage but will use any trick to gain the advantage.
The real problem is that it serves no purpose. Any blow from a lightsaber that a crossguard would stop in a clash between two normal swords will instead slice through the emitters. You could argue that the hilt could be made from cortosis to prevent this, but if you have access to that, it would make more sense just to make the whole crossguard from the stuff.
The problem with the cross-guard lightsaber, from my thinking, is that it highlights a problem lightsabers have always had: if I slide my lightsaber down your lightsaber, I will cut off your hand. We can argue that, like the katanas they're based on, the fighting style employed by lightsabers prevents that from happening, except the prequels have shown us that, given the choice, lightsabers are not used anything like katanas.
That being said, the kind of rapid-swing, choreographed fighting style exhibited in the prequels would prevent me from sliding my lightsaber down yours and cutting off your hand, but that just brings us back to the cross-guard lightsaber:
What possible fighting style could you have where that's effective? Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
They start using the swords at around 1:50. That's the traditional way to hold a sword of that size: one hand on the hilt, one hand on the blade. I'll give you a moment to think about that with a lightsaber.
Clearly, that's not what we're talking about. And, given a lightsaber's weight's going to be all-hilt and not that heavy no matter how long the blade, let's start talking about light, one-handed swords, even if that's clearly not what this sword is patterned on.
It's always seemed to me that lightsabers should be employed as fencing sabers. They're light. They move quickly. They have substantial reach without unbalancing the weapon. But fencing swords must have handguards because, in fencing, without a handguard you lose your hand. Even with a handguard, you're likely to take several hits to the arm before anything else.
So, let's assume this... light-claymore is going to be used like a fencer. I doubt it; I bet that sith swings the sword like he was Ned Stark the gymnast. But let's say he handles it like a fencer. The thing about those little side blades is... it looks like an opponent could just cut through the emitters, rendering them useless.
Oh, they're supposed to be offensive, not defensive? I would like you to think about getting the hilt of a sword close enough to your enemy and 1. you have not already stabbed them or B. they have not already stabbed you.
Now, if the Colbert Defense turns out to be true (which I doubt; I'm fairly certain one of those light-nubs is going to be cut off in a climactic moment), then maybe we have something here. Maybe we had a sith who looked at a lightsaber and said, "No wonder there's so many sith and jedi missing hands," and decided to do something about it. This could turn out to be an interesting weapon.
But I'm pretty sure someone said, "You know what would be badass? Lightsaber cross-guard," and they didn't take it any further than that.
As an aside, what's the limiting factor on the length of a lightsaber? Power? Focusing crystal quality? Because it seems to me, whoever has the longest lightsaber has a clear advantage. If I can stab you when you're fifteen feet away, you'll never get far enough inside my guard to hit me with a traditionally lengthed 'saber. Clearly, we can't do light-polearms (an opponent would just cut through the pole), but if the blade of my saber is twelve feet long, apart from collateral damage (which, who cares), there's not really a downside since the blade is weightless.
That being said, the kind of rapid-swing, choreographed fighting style exhibited in the prequels would prevent me from sliding my lightsaber down yours and cutting off your hand, but that just brings us back to the cross-guard lightsaber:
What possible fighting style could you have where that's effective? Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q
They start using the swords at around 1:50. That's the traditional way to hold a sword of that size: one hand on the hilt, one hand on the blade. I'll give you a moment to think about that with a lightsaber.
Clearly, that's not what we're talking about. And, given a lightsaber's weight's going to be all-hilt and not that heavy no matter how long the blade, let's start talking about light, one-handed swords, even if that's clearly not what this sword is patterned on.
It's always seemed to me that lightsabers should be employed as fencing sabers. They're light. They move quickly. They have substantial reach without unbalancing the weapon. But fencing swords must have handguards because, in fencing, without a handguard you lose your hand. Even with a handguard, you're likely to take several hits to the arm before anything else.
So, let's assume this... light-claymore is going to be used like a fencer. I doubt it; I bet that sith swings the sword like he was Ned Stark the gymnast. But let's say he handles it like a fencer. The thing about those little side blades is... it looks like an opponent could just cut through the emitters, rendering them useless.
Oh, they're supposed to be offensive, not defensive? I would like you to think about getting the hilt of a sword close enough to your enemy and 1. you have not already stabbed them or B. they have not already stabbed you.
Now, if the Colbert Defense turns out to be true (which I doubt; I'm fairly certain one of those light-nubs is going to be cut off in a climactic moment), then maybe we have something here. Maybe we had a sith who looked at a lightsaber and said, "No wonder there's so many sith and jedi missing hands," and decided to do something about it. This could turn out to be an interesting weapon.
But I'm pretty sure someone said, "You know what would be badass? Lightsaber cross-guard," and they didn't take it any further than that.
As an aside, what's the limiting factor on the length of a lightsaber? Power? Focusing crystal quality? Because it seems to me, whoever has the longest lightsaber has a clear advantage. If I can stab you when you're fifteen feet away, you'll never get far enough inside my guard to hit me with a traditionally lengthed 'saber. Clearly, we can't do light-polearms (an opponent would just cut through the pole), but if the blade of my saber is twelve feet long, apart from collateral damage (which, who cares), there's not really a downside since the blade is weightless.
I'm going to run with the idea that the "broadsaber" (broadsword + Lightsaber) for lack of a better name, is an ancient Sith relic being wielded by a long presumed dead Sith lord (from maybe as far back as before The Old Republic).
Not if you are a Sith! I will throw us all into the vacuum of space! I will spill this carbonate all over the room! I will pelt you with the dismembered limbs of my allies!Wolyo said:
because dark side!
Kinda don't think your "It's just the force" reasoning makes any sense in this case.
Alright, we can accept the force makes the impractical lightsaber useful to begin with. So all that discussion about weight distribution bears no weight. So look at how the things get used- twirled, spun, waved all over the damn place. What purpose does the crossguard serve, here, other than to make a difficult weapon to use even more difficult? Why would even a force user- who can magically deal with working around the crossguard, in addition to avoiding the blade- further limit themselves by wielding it? It's a weapon- are you just going to assume that you're so much better with the blade you can fight up to a more flexible jedi opponent, who has the same preternatural ability to not eviscerate themselves and a simpler saber?
It does matter how many blades you stick on the thing because it's a tool to be used, occasionally against other people using the same tool, with the same skills. If the crossguard doesn't offer any advantages, you're just adding a stumbling block for yourself. Blame it on Disney's marketing department, or on sith arrogance, but unless they show the crossguard having a real and immediate use to the wielder, it's going to remain a point of ridicule whenever people want to bash Disney's adaptation of the universe, because it's an impractical add-on to a weapon which has had the original absurdity of its nature eclipsed by the functionality jedi have gotten out of it in the films. All they have to do to shut up the detractors give it that same on-screen visible functionality: Make sure it gets used, and well. That's the difference between going in a cool new design direction and throwing a trenchcoat on your characters because you want a prop that suggests badassery.
Alright, we can accept the force makes the impractical lightsaber useful to begin with. So all that discussion about weight distribution bears no weight. So look at how the things get used- twirled, spun, waved all over the damn place. What purpose does the crossguard serve, here, other than to make a difficult weapon to use even more difficult? Why would even a force user- who can magically deal with working around the crossguard, in addition to avoiding the blade- further limit themselves by wielding it? It's a weapon- are you just going to assume that you're so much better with the blade you can fight up to a more flexible jedi opponent, who has the same preternatural ability to not eviscerate themselves and a simpler saber?
It does matter how many blades you stick on the thing because it's a tool to be used, occasionally against other people using the same tool, with the same skills. If the crossguard doesn't offer any advantages, you're just adding a stumbling block for yourself. Blame it on Disney's marketing department, or on sith arrogance, but unless they show the crossguard having a real and immediate use to the wielder, it's going to remain a point of ridicule whenever people want to bash Disney's adaptation of the universe, because it's an impractical add-on to a weapon which has had the original absurdity of its nature eclipsed by the functionality jedi have gotten out of it in the films. All they have to do to shut up the detractors give it that same on-screen visible functionality: Make sure it gets used, and well. That's the difference between going in a cool new design direction and throwing a trenchcoat on your characters because you want a prop that suggests badassery.
So basically, "a space wizard did it."
Which is fine. I didn't want to bring the real world or practicality into it in the first place.
It still looks dumb.
Which is fine. I didn't want to bring the real world or practicality into it in the first place.
It still looks dumb.
I think I'm just gonna leave this here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYlvatkLU0U
Also, lightsabre quillions terrify me. All of a sudden, you're not so worried about locking blades because, with a little change in weight or stance you've taken someone's eye out. Or driven it through their temple. Or into their chest. Or you've got a perfect lever to disarm a foe through good old leverage and muscle. Given that the weilder would be trained to use it effectively, this addition is mind-bogglingly fantastic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYlvatkLU0U
Also, lightsabre quillions terrify me. All of a sudden, you're not so worried about locking blades because, with a little change in weight or stance you've taken someone's eye out. Or driven it through their temple. Or into their chest. Or you've got a perfect lever to disarm a foe through good old leverage and muscle. Given that the weilder would be trained to use it effectively, this addition is mind-bogglingly fantastic.
Honestly, I think it comes down to what the claymore lightsaber *is* and who it's owned by.
It looks like... well, a cobbled-together piece of garbage. Which might *work*, in the context of the story. It might be one that's put together with lots of old parts and barely keeping together. The "cross-guards" might actually be some sort of stabilization vents to keep the massive blade together.
I mean, look at that thing. It's flipping huge. Might mean going back to the visual and movement styles of "act like these things weigh 20 points" of the original trilogy instead of the "act like they're weightless" in the prequels.
It looks like... well, a cobbled-together piece of garbage. Which might *work*, in the context of the story. It might be one that's put together with lots of old parts and barely keeping together. The "cross-guards" might actually be some sort of stabilization vents to keep the massive blade together.
I mean, look at that thing. It's flipping huge. Might mean going back to the visual and movement styles of "act like these things weigh 20 points" of the original trilogy instead of the "act like they're weightless" in the prequels.
Don't care for the cross-guard blades. It feels too much like the "add more blades, it will make awesome for reasons!!!OMGWTFBBQ!!!" Which, let's be honest, is stupid reason. Plus, it looks silly.
But what really bothers me about the trailer is how much of what it shows looks like "trailer shots." You know, shots that are only composed that way to have something "neat" to put in the trailer. These kinds of shots almost always stand out as weird in the movies themselves. Both the reveal of the black storm trooper who is, for some reason, very controversial and the appearance of the apparent Sith seem to exist for no reason other than to be in the trailer. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the context of those scenes is supposed to be. And to boot, both of those are seem weirdly framed to me. I'm not an expert in cinematography so I can't describe it in technical terms (or even quite put my finger on some of it), but so many little things seem off.
But what really bothers me about the trailer is how much of what it shows looks like "trailer shots." You know, shots that are only composed that way to have something "neat" to put in the trailer. These kinds of shots almost always stand out as weird in the movies themselves. Both the reveal of the black storm trooper who is, for some reason, very controversial and the appearance of the apparent Sith seem to exist for no reason other than to be in the trailer. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the context of those scenes is supposed to be. And to boot, both of those are seem weirdly framed to me. I'm not an expert in cinematography so I can't describe it in technical terms (or even quite put my finger on some of it), but so many little things seem off.
Well, they did finish principal photography about a month ago; it's possible that things look off because they rushed the various layers of editing and minute correction in order to have the trailer out this early.RJ Dalton said:
Both power and crystal quality are factors; older, larger lightsabers had to have belt-mounted power packs to keep going, and while a bunch of different kinds of crystals can be used, most make inferior weapons.Azuaron said:
The is also the gyroscopic effect, which isn't mentioned in the movies (because it's boring nerd stuff that gets in the way of blasters and one-liners) but plays a big part in the EU whenever training or designing lightsabers is mentioned. Basically, while the plasma is weightless, the fields that are containing it do resist changes in motion. It's not like swinging a flashlight, as CJ says, but more difficult and closer to a real sword. It's enough that smaller blades are noted to be easier to handle, so trying to swing a larger one would be proportionately more difficult; I imagine a 12-meter blade would be impossible to aim at anything in particular.
Although only a few people wield big lightsabers (usually giant aliens), you might be interested to know there is a kind of lightsaber specifically designed with a switch that takes it from the normal length of about a meter to about 3. It had a period of popularity as a dueling weapon, but the longer blade was only good for surprise attacks, and it fell out of favour.