Star Wars: This Is How You Defend The Ridiculous Crossguard Lightsaber

[wswordsmen]

I is dumb sometimes.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

The problem with the cross-guard lightsaber, from my thinking, is that it highlights a problem lightsabers have always had: if I slide my lightsaber down your lightsaber, I will cut off your hand. We can argue that, like the katanas they're based on, the fighting style employed by lightsabers prevents that from happening, except the prequels have shown us that, given the choice, lightsabers are not used anything like katanas.

That being said, the kind of rapid-swing, choreographed fighting style exhibited in the prequels would prevent me from sliding my lightsaber down yours and cutting off your hand, but that just brings us back to the cross-guard lightsaber:

What possible fighting style could you have where that's effective? Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlIUrd7d1Q

They start using the swords at around 1:50. That's the traditional way to hold a sword of that size: one hand on the hilt, one hand on the blade. I'll give you a moment to think about that with a lightsaber.

Clearly, that's not what we're talking about. And, given a lightsaber's weight's going to be all-hilt and not that heavy no matter how long the blade, let's start talking about light, one-handed swords, even if that's clearly not what this sword is patterned on.

It's always seemed to me that lightsabers should be employed as fencing sabers. They're light. They move quickly. They have substantial reach without unbalancing the weapon. But fencing swords must have handguards because, in fencing, without a handguard you lose your hand. Even with a handguard, you're likely to take several hits to the arm before anything else.

So, let's assume this... light-claymore is going to be used like a fencer. I doubt it; I bet that sith swings the sword like he was Ned Stark the gymnast. But let's say he handles it like a fencer. The thing about those little side blades is... it looks like an opponent could just cut through the emitters, rendering them useless.

Oh, they're supposed to be offensive, not defensive? I would like you to think about getting the hilt of a sword close enough to your enemy and 1. you have not already stabbed them or B. they have not already stabbed you.

Now, if the Colbert Defense turns out to be true (which I doubt; I'm fairly certain one of those light-nubs is going to be cut off in a climactic moment), then maybe we have something here. Maybe we had a sith who looked at a lightsaber and said, "No wonder there's so many sith and jedi missing hands," and decided to do something about it. This could turn out to be an interesting weapon.

But I'm pretty sure someone said, "You know what would be badass? Lightsaber cross-guard," and they didn't take it any further than that.

As an aside, what's the limiting factor on the length of a lightsaber? Power? Focusing crystal quality? Because it seems to me, whoever has the longest lightsaber has a clear advantage. If I can stab you when you're fifteen feet away, you'll never get far enough inside my guard to hit me with a traditionally lengthed 'saber. Clearly, we can't do light-polearms (an opponent would just cut through the pole), but if the blade of my saber is twelve feet long, apart from collateral damage (which, who cares), there's not really a downside since the blade is weightless.

Fun fact, there have actually been Light-polearms in the EU. Went about as well as expected, you can look it up on Wookipedia if you like.
There's also been ones with Crossguards but, whatever, I guess we can all just rag on this Sith dude's one >.>

Though from a sword point of view, surely when the inevitable 'Lightsabers locked overhead' thing arises, bashing the Jedi saber away with the hilts is possible (not exactly EFFICIENT but it's a use for a common scenario).
Also of note, having a tiny precision cutting tool could be helpful in general scenarios.

 

[Something Amyss]

Fun fact, there have actually been Light-polearms in the EU. Went about as well as expected, you can look it up on Wookipedia if you like.

There have been a lot of reeeeeeally stupid things in the EU.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I don't really understand the reasoning of the 'lightsaber blades are weightless' group.

Sure, an attempt to guess at how they might work in reality would imply it, but EVERYTHING shown onscreen (and many things stated in background material) show otherwise.

Lightsaber blades have quite a bit of momentum. They are hard to swing. If anything, they are blade-heavy, given how they behave in a fight...

So arguing that they are hilt-heavy contradicts every piece of visual evidence we have of their use.

How then is this argument so common? Is it based on some reasoning from real-world physics?

OK, sure. But remember there is basically no practical way using real known physics to even create a weapon that behaves like a light-saber in even it's basic operation.

Sorry. But a flashlight is NOT a good analogy for the weight and balance of a light-saber. Look at any fight scene and this should be immediately obvious.

Yet it is still the goto argument of anyone that feels the need to discuss the combat implications of the weapon...

Surely, in the absence of any actual real-world reference point for the technology, the best place to start is with their observed behaviour, and work backwards from there?

After all, you don't do science by choosing a model, then, when that model conflicts with the available evidence, declaring the model correct, while throwing out all the contradicting evidence.

And the evidence, suggests a large amount of momentum involved in swinging a light-saber around... Which is the complete opposite of the argument being used.

 

[Nieroshai]

For everyone saying that the blades would slide and hit the emitters: the blades are basically magnetically-sealed plasma. The magnetic field does something, that you'll agree can be demonstrated with a refrigerator magnet: try to put two magnets together at matching poles (or sabers together at the outside of the magnet bottle) and they will repel. Saber blades don't slide, they bounce. When they're locked together, they hiss and sputter and crackle as those magnet bottles try as hard as they can to repel each other. This is basically a shoving match, and the blades almost seem stuck, almost like magnetic strata of the containment bottle have intersected and the blades are entangled to each other. They won't slide, because they can't move. Not until they're separated.

I could be wrong, just commenting on observations and some of the more sciencey EU errata.

 

[Infernai]

SNIP

Edit: The below statements about the use of lightsaber on/off switch have since been proven incorrect.

In the old EU there was lightsabers that could, in-fact, change their length but they weren't very common. Hell, in Star Wars: Rebels Kanans lightsaber is able to adjust the blades length.

One thing that's always kinda boggled me is why nobodies used the lightsabers main aspect mid-fight: The on/off button.

Hear me out.

Yes, turning your lightsaber off in the middle of a bloody fight sounds kinda of silly and I'm not recommending just turning it off for no reason but lets look at a few minor uses that the blade deactivating could have.

First example. Your in the middle of a sabre clash and doing the good old to-and-fro shove. What if, someone did the following: Mid clash, they maneuvered themselves to one side enough to not get cut by the other blade and, in the same motion, deactivated their blade. This would naturally make the other combatant stumble for a moment and, in that time, you swing and reactivate your blade mid swing so you can kill them while their guard is down. Or, alternatively, just thrust forward and reactivate the blade thereby skewering your enemy. Yes, this is a rather dangerous move to pull off but with the right timing, stance and reflexes (All three a good jedi would likely posses) you could pull off a good sneak attack.

Another possible move is simple: Turn off your opponents saber mid clash. Aka. While clashing, just reach a hand forwards to your enemies blades hilt and hit the off switch. Then, cut their head off. Granted, this one is dependent on if it has the switch or button at top of hilt design but i still think it's a viable strategy that's never been explored even if it's dependent on lightsaber hilt style.

And even if the moves aren't very Jedi: Why the hell hasn't any Sith done this either? A dirty fighter sith duelist would be fun to see.

On the Topic of the Cross-guard itself: Look, I admit I don't have TOO much problem with it as I can see the metal protrusions are out enough to not slice the hand off utterly but it does seem kind of...pointless to me. As the person I quoted said, if it's to guard then what's stopping the other duelist lobbing off the metal protrusions that emit the blade at that point? I still think it's kind of silly but, hey, at-least it's not a lightsaber whip...

What i honestly wouldn't mind seeing is a cross-guard like this if they wanted one:

Spoiler

 

[Sniper Team 4]

My problem with the light saber in the trailer has nothing to do with it's design. It's the desperate cloying going on.


It just seems desperate in a way that I don't think it needs to be. The fact that the added plasma blades are absurd is irrelevant.

Yep. That's my problem with it too. It just reeks of "Hey, look how cool we're making Star Wars now!"

I've always doubted how a lightsaber would work in real life because yeah, no weight to it. Original lightsabers were actually swords that had a power pack that plugged into them. They were used solely as ceremonial weapons and only held a charge for a minute or so. Then they evolved into what Luke and the Jedi use now in Star Wars. And yeah, a lot of the time is brought up that a Jedi--or Sith--rely on the Force to 'predict' attacks and allow the Force to guide them in battle. There have been a few non-Force users who can use was--Boba Fett, Grievous, and a girl that Jacen had a crush on to pick some--but they are certainly weapons meant to be used by Force wielders.

 

[Zannah]

One thing that's always kinda boggled me is why nobodies used the lightsabers main aspect mid-fight: The on/off button.

Because Lightsaber blades don't appear/disappear instantaneous. There's a good part of a second before the blade has fully collapsed/ignited to full length. And at the speed that jedi fight at, that's ample time to get shredded, where you have no weapon to defend yourself (Since lightsaber combat works by spooling off memorized sequences, and those are centered around a full weapon, so the wielder is bound to either make mistakes or fight consciously, i.e much much slower.)

Edit: Clarification since a lot of people don't seem to know:

As mentioned, lightsaber combat works by using mild precognition, in conjuncture with an arsenal of memorized sequences. You try to predict which one your opponed will pick, and pick accordingly.
(See the Bane trilogy for reference)

 

[Loonyyy]

That's really not much of a defense. Weak. Very weak.

For me, the biggest problem is it breaks internal consistency, and it's kind of goofy. If this is a serious problem, why does no-one else do anything about it? Jedi and Sith have been using the weapons for millenia, and they haven't worked this out? Additionally, the design with the emitters looks silly, and bringing Beskar or Cortosis in just makes it a real mess, and Cortosis in particular is just an balancing bit from various RPGs, and breaks the universe. There's no explaining the emitters without rendering the emitters pointless (If you have cortosis, you have basket hilts, crossguards, and no need for saber blades there), and there's no including the crossguard as a defensive slide down the blade thing without making the rest of the series look ill thought out and broken.

On the other hand, he looks like an evil wizard inquisitor type, which is awesome, and I love the menacing shape of the thing. SO I'm torn.

 

[Jadak]

Is anyone really complaining about it not being practical? I thought the issue was that it looked stupid, as if they just wanted to up the 'cool factor' and took the first lame idea that some idiot tossed out.

 

[Fox12]

Meh. Even if the force allowed the user to use the weapon, it's still less practical than a normal saber, which means the user would have to compromise even more in order to master the weapon, while receiving no tangible benefits.

That's right, I said no tangible benefits. Because the guard doesn't guard you. If saber runs down the length of the blade then it will hit the exposed light saber emitter, not the "guard." This will sever the blade and probably the hand as well. If you're going to have a guard, then create some small shield emitter that cups around the hand like a fencing saber. It would still look stupid, but at least it would be practical.

But on top of that, the damn thing looks ugly. It's something that 14 year old J.J. probably drew on his binder during math class.

 

[Chaos Isaac]

Am I the only one who likes the saber?

I think it's neat, and I can see a few instances where jabbing the guard into some sunofabitch jedi to be useful, if not unexpected and odd considering most Saber combat. But, let's be honest guys. This is far more practical then tonfa-sabers, which have already been used.

Hrm, actually, is the Force Unleashed still canon?

Anyways, the saber is neat, and it allows for a more iconic weapon for a baddy. And it makes me a bit hopeful for diverse saber designs later on. Sure, Maul's double saber was sweet, and Dooku's curved hilt was a nice touch, but it'd like to see more takes on the design. So, hell yeah variety. Also, ain't no jedi gonna steal your saber and use it as effectively as you can, especially if there's a trick to the length of the guard sabers. (They could emit farther or shenanigans, I don't know, space magic swords.)

 

[JayRPG]

People complaining or "arguing" about this lightsaber are just looking for things to complain about because nothing will be good enough to live up to their precious original trilogy (which for the most part was fucking boring, especially the lightsaber duels, let's be honest and take off the nostalgia glasses for 30 seconds).

Everybody just assumes these are crossguards and for that reason alone pick apart why they won't work.. anybody ever think that they aren't crossguards at all? or that by the trailer they appear to be able to be turned on and off independently of the main blade so he might turn them off when they aren't necessary?

Did anybody stop to think how useful they might be to plunge into a Jedi's face or chest while using your superior Sith strength during a lightsaber clash? or even how dangerous those things would be to the Jedi's lightsaber or hands during a lightsaber clash?

By Star Wars lore and reasoning, Darth Maul intentionally left himself open for his opponents as to not get bored, he liked the danger, he purposely used the dual bladed saber because it made him vulnerable in certain ways, his weapon was impractical (more impractical than a regular saber*), but it didn't matter, he was still regarded as one of the best (arguably the best) with a lightsaber.

There is absolutely no reason why this new Sith could not find an effective way to use this weapon, if it was that much of a problem, he wouldn't use it, or maybe he likes the added danger. They don't have to be cross guards just because they look vaguely like cross guards, they don't always have to active, for all we know they could be nothing but a signature flourish he uses as a calling card.

Stop nitpicking things for the sake of nitpicking things, nobody has any idea how this saber will be used or wielded and none of us will know until we see the movie. let it go.

 

[Verlander]

What it ultimately boils down to, is that if it needs defending, it's bad design. People accepted lightsabers off the bat, whether they were right to do so or not.

 

[Jingle Fett]

The problem isn't really the practicality. The problem is with functionality and purpose. Lightsabers aren't really practical period. But that's ok because while they're not actually practical, they're fairly functional--they cut through metal, they deflect laser bolts, etc. Darth Maul's blade isn't very practical because realistically he's more likely to cut himself in half while fighting...but we're willing to put that detail aside because a double-sided lightsaber brings new functionality to the table and has purpose--it's a different fighting style, it can block attacks from behind, can work well against multiple opponents, etc.

So if the crossguards were functional, I think people wouldn't have as much of a problem with them. So what functionality do the crossguards bring? Well none really. If a blade hits the base of the crossguards (one of the likeliest parts to get hit), it's just going to lop them off. This means the bases need to be made of cortosis or something similar. But then this begs the obvious question, why bother with the lightsaber part at all when you can just make the whole crossguard out of cortosis and get the same effect? Which even has the added benefit of being less dangerous to the user.
So what's the functionality/advantage of lightsaber crossguards vs cortosis? None that I can see...

The Colbert defense works to an extent but it doesn't explain why the crossguards have a base at all. If they're merely covers to prevent the user from slicing off their own fingers, it wouldn't cover both sides since it'd just get cut off anyways. And if they're made of cortosis or similar, again you have the question of why not just make the whole thing out of cortosis entirely.

The main justification that works (which I actually like) is the idea some have mentioned of the crossguards actually being like exhaust vents or something like that since the lightsaber itself is so much longer and different. So maybe the crossguards are actually to keep the whole thing stable by getting rid of excess energy (the main blade flickers and pulsates different from a regular lightsaber, and the crossguards look a bit "flame-y"). Maybe it prevents the main blade from being even longer because the lightsaber is built differently. So an exhaust vent that happens to also offer *some* protection. If it gets explained something like this within the movie, that's something I could get behind because it means they have logical purpose.

Alternatively, the only other justification I can think of is if the sith user has the ability to extend the length of the crossguards for quick defense or surprise attacks. That could possibly be neat depending on how they executed it.

I'm getting the vibe though that it's more they just went "look how cool and different we're being!" and didn't give it much more thought than that (after all, we're talking about JJ "Khan's magic Jesus blood" Abrams). Then again we'll see, hopefully I'm wrong...

 

[draigan]

The problem isn't really the practicality. The problem is with functionality and purpose. Lightsabers aren't really practical period. But that's ok because while they're not actually practical, they're fairly functional--they cut through metal, they deflect laser bolts, etc. Darth Maul's blade isn't very practical because realistically he's more likely to cut himself in half while fighting...but we're willing to put that detail aside because a double-sided lightsaber brings new functionality to the table and has purpose--it's a different fighting style, it can block attacks from behind, can work well against multiple opponents, etc.

So if the crossguards were functional, I think people wouldn't have as much of a problem with them. So what functionality do the crossguards bring? Well none really. If a blade hits the base of the crossguards, it's just going to lop them off. This means the bases need to be made of cortosis or something similar. But then this begs the question, why bother with the lightsaber part at all when you can just make the whole crossguard out of cortosis and get the same effect? Which even has the added benefit of being less dangerous to the user.
So what's the functionality/advantage of lightsaber crossguards vs cortosis? None that I can see...

The Colbert defense works to an extent but it doesn't explain why the crossguards have a base at all. If they're merely covers to prevent the user from slicing off their own fingers, it wouldn't cover both sides since it'd just get cut off anyways. And if they're made of cortosis or similar, again you have the question of why not just make the whole thing out of cortosis entirely.

The main justification that works (which I actually like) is the idea some have mentioned of the crossguards actually being like exhaust vents or something like that since the lightsaber itself is so much longer and different. So maybe the crossguards are actually to keep the whole thing stable by getting rid of excess energy (the main blade flickers and pulsates different from a regular lightsaber, and the crossguards look a bit "flame-y"). Maybe it prevents the main blade from being even longer because the lightsaber is built differently. If it gets explained something like this within the movie, that's something I could get behind because it means they have logical purpose.

Alternatively, the only other justification I can think of is if the sith user has the ability to extend the length of the crossguards for quick defense or surprise attacks. That could possibly be neat depending on how they executed it.

I'm getting the vibe though that it's more they just went "look how cool and different we're being!" and didn't give it much more thought than that (after all, we're talking about JJ "Khan's magic Jesus blood" Abrams). Then again we'll see, hopefully I'm wrong...

I was going to write something similar but you summed up my thoughts pretty much exactly, i think the concept is fine its the not actually functionally useful that i have an issue with

 

[Kenjitsuka]

First things first: Mr. Mozzi, you look very buff!!!

I've never understood the lightsaber's lack of crossguard.
As an avid fan of all blades for decades I cannot accept the Jedi or Sith wielding those things and not immediately pushing down/forward on blocking and slicing off the enemies hand/fingers. Even if they are very weary of it, that still doesn't mean it's not possible to do, meaning you have to fear that motion since you cannot depend on the crossguard for your defense against it.

If you want to know how insane an actual sword is without a crossguard I really recommend the movie Azumi (first part).
It's bad guy is so insanely fast (and very much insane) that he has never ever had to block ANY attack ever, as he always kills before he needs to block... So he uses a katana without a crossguard, which everyone recognises as a big deal and very foolish.

Even combat knives and daggers have crossguards, although I admit those are there to prevent your fingers from sliding into your own blade when you drive it through enemy bones. It's because those are stabbing weapons...

 

[Radoh]

People need to actually go back and look at the saber. Do you see how the blade is unstable and bubbling? Or how the crossguards look less like little lightsabers and more like flame shooting out the sides? It's a shittily built lightsaber, that's its design.
In the original trilogy, how many people know how to actually build a lightsaber? Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke, Darth Vader, and Emperor Palpatine, everyone else that could is dead except Luke, who's obviously not going around giving out trade secrets to possible Sith, so the fact that this guy doesn't have a well constructed saber is a plot point, not just a JJ Abrams "wouldn't it be cool if we had a crossguard saber?"

Also, look at how huge it is, this is not a weapon that's going to lead to a dumb choreographed 'swing the blade all around you as you cartwheel through the air' nonsense like the prequels.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Fun fact, there have actually been Light-polearms in the EU. Went about as well as expected, you can look it up on Wookipedia if you like.

There have been a lot of reeeeeeally stupid things in the EU.

That is true! In fact, thinking about it, we could have done a lot worse than a Cross Guard

...
I'm 90% sure this isn't just fan art.