Alternatives to the Glut of Metroidvania-Style Platformers

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Alternatives to the Glut of Metroidvania-Style Platformers

With the recent rash of Metroidvania style games from Indie developers, Yahtzee offers some alternative platform ideas.

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[flying_whimsy]

That whole depowering idea reminds me of a japanese movie where the hero was on a quest to get his body parts back from a bunch of demons: with each one defeated he gained a little bit of his body and humanity, but lost a little of his supernatural fighting abilities. Sorry, but I can't remember the name.

I'd really like to play a game like the ones yahtzee describes, but who knows if anyone would actually take the risk of making them. I actually tend to prefer level based stuff over the likes of metroidvania: those games tend to seem overwhelming more than anything else. Also the backtracking can get beyond tedious.

 

[Deshin]

Yahtzee's idea at the end sounds like a reverse Megaman game. Instead of starting out with nothing and picking the levels to tackle how you want it, smacking the boss at the end and getting a shiny new toy, it happens in reverse.

Why it wouldn't work is when it comes to adding abilities/weapons you can tackle things differently. For example, if you're struggling against a specific boss in one level in Megaman and you know a weapon from another boss would drastically help then you'd just go back to the menu screen and go fight the other guy first.
If it's reversed and you lose abilities then you can't do that without starting a fresh game because that one specific weapon/ability you had was the best of the bunch but you lost it on your first level because you didn't bother to check a guide. The way around this is having weapons/abilities that aren't AS crucial to normal combat that the game would be crippled by their exclusion, but then it becomes window dressing and weapons/abilities stocked in there to be one-use wonders.

All the game would lead to is people either getting frustrated with the layout or hounding down guides to min/max their way through the game to ensure they have the best weapons/abilities for the longest time possible. Which means the game just devolves into a linear game as there becomes a specific path that is so optimal you'd be masochistic for not taking it which goes against the whole spirit of the project in the first place.

So yeah, bad idea.

 

[CaitSeith]

Oh, man! The genius of your ideas for games is just comparable with the complexity of their execution. Passing from power fantasy to survival in the same game sounds like a real challenge for the developers (and an exciting experience for me).

EDIT: About the reverse Metroidvania, I got a similar experience in Alien: Isolation (it certainly unfolds like a Metroidvania game most of the time). Except that it wasn't slowly closing your routes; but by passing the point of no-return (the last 3 chapters) everything closed down. I think it would work better in a combination of the two: the first half would be normal Metrodvania flow (opening new areas, powering up the players, and making them feel familiar with the map), and the second half in reverse (closing them back, slowly sacrificing their acquired powers for a long term gain).

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Aww. I was getting into that idea for a brief second. How about as you lose powers, you gain extra movesets with the remaining powers you have? Also you could gain allies...others willing to follow you when they see what you are willing to sacrifice of yourself.

I can definately see Nintendo adopting a home lobotamy gaming kit, with free straightjacket amiibo toy. I'd be up for that, as long as It doesn't induce incontinence.

(On an entirely unrelated note, Just cause 3 has a new gameplay trailer out! Woop! Just skip the last minute of it to avoid the pre-order bullshit that has infected every fckin corner like damp mould in a wet barnhouse.)

 

[Dalisclock]

I'm sure it's been done elsewhere but Superbrothers: Sword and Sworcery did the "Slowly Depowered Hero" idea. The battles(what few there are) don't really get any harder. Instead, you start with a large health bar and each time you pick up one of the power object needed to advance the plot, your health bar is decreased, so the margin of error for the battles gets smaller and smaller. By the endgame, the main character is so low on health that she occasionally stops and vomits/coughs up blood....while the big bad is chasing her. Luckily, this part of the game is fairly short so it doesn't last long enough to get annoying. Also, you can stun the big bad during the chase to allow you stay just ahead of it.

 

[Weaver]

I honestly haven't really found their to be a glut of metroidvania style games at all.

 

[theyellowmeteor]

Am I the only one who thinks Yahtzee had missed the chance to call the Metroidvania glut 'Metromania'?

 

[figment of mind]

That whole depowering idea reminds me of a japanese movie where the hero was on a quest to get his body parts back from a bunch of demons: with each one defeated he gained a little bit of his body and humanity, but lost a little of his supernatural fighting abilities. Sorry, but I can't remember the name.

That would Dororo, if i'm not mistaken.

On topic though, for the losing abilities game, maybe have the abilitis simplified for easy learning? Also, to help the player get used to them, maybe include a few levels from the start to help you get to the hub, as a sort of training session and the final level could just be going back through there without those abilities, forcing you to learn how to get passed there without them.

 

[Jorpho]

The average player might idly be interested in seeing how quickly they can do level 1-4 in Mario 3,

Tsk. 1-4 is an autoscroller and no one would be able to finish it appreciably faster than anyone else. I mean, really.

(j/k)

 

[Signa]

I like the depowering idea as well. You would have to do something like where you beat the final boss as your weakest point, and then get all your abilities back. That way you can explore again, find those secrets, and maybe offer a secret final, final boss to fight at full power to restore order in the game world or something.

Metroid Fusion toyed with this concept. The game kept changing as you progressed, making it harder and harder to get around, even when you had more abilities.

 

[BeerTent]

Allow me to second, or third or fourth/fifth Yahtzee's idea of losing power. (You people are ninja's.)

He noted that the problem is that the player needs to know about the area first, which makes sense. What if this... What if we were lead through the conventional level system, going through all of these areas, unlocking secrets, ETC. And then this big attack happens. The main area where your precious 7-11 is gets jumbled, and forces you to relearn that area. One by one, you have to go through each area, getting hit by the final boss to lose x ability. Until the very end, where the big bad boss goes after the 7-11. The hub area may have some new abilities to play with that you must unlock to save the day, but that's an option.

Eversion also has an idea that might play well with this. Perhaps in certain areas, you can see a glimpse of the monster's world, maybe go through a hidden "gate" to try and face his minions early on.

Something to keep in mind for your hobbies...

 

[TheBanMan_v1legacy]

My immediate take on the "reverse progression" would be something like this:

Our fearless hero sets out to clean up the land from the baddies. Along the way s/he must take out the local underlings using a specific item/weapon/whatever before moving to the next zone; standard fare. The problem being that once the hero moves on, the baddies will come back and start causing havoc again.

To stop this, the hero gives up his special item/weapon/whatever to the locals as a way for them to defend themselves in the future and uphold the peace.

This means that the hero is slowly losing all his/her powers/trinkets while progressing, but for a reasonable cause. The hero would then have to face the final big baddie with only a lucky rabbits foot, or pen knife, or whatever is left. Maybe the hero knew it would be their demise at the end, anyways, so this is a way to leave a lasting legacy of peace... At least until the power of the item/weapon/whatever corrupts the locals just in time for the sequel.

Given some half decent writing to help justify it, I think it could work.

 

[beleester]

During the course of playing both Axiom Verge and Ori and the Blind Forest I found myself sorely wishing for some kind of fast travel function as I made my way for the umpteenth time to a square on the map that hadn't been filled in yet, vaguely recalling that there was a door that my new ability could open. Then finding that I'd remembered wrong and I was actually supposed to go there after I'd found the penis extension power up and mastered the Pogo Knob ability.

The later Metroid games had a simple solution to this problem: Mark the player's next destination on the map for them. You still have to do some exploring to figure out how to get there, you still have the option of breaking the sequence and trying to go somewhere else, but if you want to stop exploring and finish the story, you don't have to fill all the corners of the map. You just have to follow directions.

 

[shrekfan246]

Yahtzee's idea at the end sounds like a reverse Megaman game. Instead of starting out with nothing and picking the levels to tackle how you want it, smacking the boss at the end and getting a shiny new toy, it happens in reverse.

Why it wouldn't work is when it comes to adding abilities/weapons you can tackle things differently. For example, if you're struggling against a specific boss in one level in Megaman and you know a weapon from another boss would drastically help then you'd just go back to the menu screen and go fight the other guy first.
If it's reversed and you lose abilities then you can't do that without starting a fresh game because that one specific weapon/ability you had was the best of the bunch but you lost it on your first level because you didn't bother to check a guide. The way around this is having weapons/abilities that aren't AS crucial to normal combat that the game would be crippled by their exclusion, but then it becomes window dressing and weapons/abilities stocked in there to be one-use wonders.

All the game would lead to is people either getting frustrated with the layout or hounding down guides to min/max their way through the game to ensure they have the best weapons/abilities for the longest time possible. Which means the game just devolves into a linear game as there becomes a specific path that is so optimal you'd be masochistic for not taking it which goes against the whole spirit of the project in the first place.

So yeah, bad idea.

Or it's like a reverse Metroid game. You know, where you start with things like Space Jump and Super Missiles and a Grappling Hook and Power Bombs, and as you progress through the game you use these things to traverse the environment and occasionally in combat, and then end up needing to use them in extreme ways to defeat bosses, rendering them useless after. It would also be a good way of naturally ramping up the difficulty of the game without needing to constantly simply increase the power levels of the enemies the player faces, though I could see a game like that easily stumbling and making the areas less and less interesting as you approach the end of the game because you don't have as many options for movement.

But basically, I don't think Metroidvania-style platformers and Mega Man-style platformers are really comparable in this sort of situation.

 

[flying_whimsy]

That would Dororo, if i'm not mistaken.

Thank you! It was driving me nuts that I couldn't remember the name.

OT: I remember at the start of prototype they do that stupid vision of the end of the game combat tutorial where you play with all of the powers. I thought it was awesome and then I was stuck with the minimum of everything from then on. Rather than be exciting it just annoyed me.

If I'd lost the powers gradually, I think it would have made for a way more engaging experience.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I rather like Yahtzee's idea for a reverse-Metroidvania game. Shame we'll never see that happen. Like his survival horror idea for a blind person in an abandoned ship being guided in the third person via security cameras.

 

[Veylon]

During the course of playing both Axiom Verge and Ori and the Blind Forest I found myself sorely wishing for some kind of fast travel function as I made my way for the umpteenth time to a square on the map that hadn't been filled in yet, vaguely recalling that there was a door that my new ability could open. Then finding that I'd remembered wrong and I was actually supposed to go there after I'd found the penis extension power up and mastered the Pogo Knob ability.

The later Metroid games had a simple solution to this problem: Mark the player's next destination on the map for them. You still have to do some exploring to figure out how to get there, you still have the option of breaking the sequence and trying to go somewhere else, but if you want to stop exploring and finish the story, you don't have to fill all the corners of the map. You just have to follow directions.

A few more alternatives: Let the player open up the map and look at what was at any of the revealed squares. The character surely remembers where they've been, so the let the player see as well. That way they don't have to traipse across the entire game world to see if the door over there was red or blue.

Otherwise, put icons on the map for the obstacles. Either all the time or after they get the thing needed to bypass it.

Another idea is simply letting the player write notes to themselves. (Granted, they can do that anyway in real life). Have a little note-taking utility so that they can write on their map, "There's a red door here," or, "There's a spiky passage here," or something and thus give the player an easy way to organize what they've seen. It should be easy to implement, but is rarely used.

 

[Darth_Payn]

I read the column, and now I forget how to spell that new word-salad monstrosity for "Metroid-vania". Just when I thought we have a new "spunkgarggleweewee".

 

[mrdude2010]

That idea actually reminds me of a part in the WC3:TFT campaign where your hero levels up, then starts leveling down again.