136: What Happened To The Last Starfighters?
- Thread starter Howard Wen
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Haha! As soon as I saw this article I had to mention Jumpgate Classic and Jumpgate Evolution but you've already beat me to the punch! Though they are MMOs, they still use (semi) Newtonian physics and are simulator-based with a HOTAS (Hands on Throttle and Stick) emphasis (alternate controls for a mouse are very good as well if you don't have a stick).Zeshin said:
This is a MMO that has been running for over 7 (?) years now and has such a strong community backing it that the original publisher decided to invest their own money into making a sequel (no publisher to force a release date in other words). Unfortunately for Jumpgate Classic, it was developed without an adequate tutorial to teach you how to use its controls. It also suffered from a semi-steep learning curve. Not too many controls, it's just that people aren't really used to Newtonian physics. X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, Wing Commander, etc, all use atmospheric flight models and it took awhile to get used to space. But once you did, it was a very rewarding sim with a persistent MMO universe.
Anyway, I'm rambling on too much so please, just check out the flash video on the main website. It's going to be a beautiful game and hopefully recapture some of the untapped space sim/sci-fi genre.
http://www.jumpgate-evolution.com
Or a fansite:
http://www.joystickrequired.com
I miss having games that I could use my joystick with. Hell, I'd shell out $50 for a version of Freelancer that let me use a joystick to steer.
The space fighter games always did have a steep learning curve, but that was half the fun. When you got good at the game, you actually felt like you accomplished something. Freespace was a fun game, so was Starlancer, which I picked up after I got Freelancer. Of course, it may not be an open-space game, but I miss the original Descent. That game was my obsession for the longest time.
The space fighter games always did have a steep learning curve, but that was half the fun. When you got good at the game, you actually felt like you accomplished something. Freespace was a fun game, so was Starlancer, which I picked up after I got Freelancer. Of course, it may not be an open-space game, but I miss the original Descent. That game was my obsession for the longest time.
For me it has always been the lack of a joystick coupled with the percieved dullness of the experience that has stopped me from investing into something like X3. I rather liked Freelancer, it had a decent story and the acting wasn't too bad, considering it's a space-opera.
There is however one thing that I really, really, would like to see in a space-sim, and I think it's utterly criminal that it still hasn't been done:
Real-world scale.
I only know of Eve Online that has succesfully pulled it off, which would be a fantastic sim if it weren't an MMO. But if someone gave me a game like that, where you could fly around on your overpowered Hyperdrive around the solar system, whizzing by gigantic planets, then stop somewhere off a gas giant and actually trully appreciate the enormous size of the titan even as you hovered some thousands of kilometres off its surface...
Space sims have the ability to touch on one, very deep, fundamental emotion - awe. If I disregarded Freelancer's football-sized planets, it does a very good job of it. It is incredibly atmospheric as well as beautiful and very, very varied - there are debris fields, ice-nebulae, mine-fields... when you venture out to a distant, back-water part of the galaxy the atmosphere is palpable as you drift dangerously between radioactive debris and deadly plasma storms.
And then you have the pretty planet-side visuals, too - it's nice to feel sometimes that you're not just a ship, but that you're actually a person in there, too, and to be able to *see* for yourself where you get, look over all these strange new alien worlds. This is what I want from a good space-sim.
Combat, more often than not, ends up with you sitting in a cockpit, looking and darkness as you frantically try to pan around until you catch sight of a ship, then try to keep a lock on it, before it escapes and starts somehow pummelling you from behind. X3 had lovely visuals, and very pretty music, but from what I've seen of it in the demos it suffers from that boxed-upness of areas... this is the vastness of space, yes, so why is it that invariably all the environments in games like this are confined to a tiny little spot of space somewhere, hovering over a planet perhaps, with no actual ability for you to venture further out and explore the vestiges of space other than where the jump-gates decide to take you?
There's a lot that can be done to capture people's imaginations with space-sims, but instead they merely retread the same soil over, and over and over again.
If anyone can prove me wrong, you're more than welcome to - I sincerely hope you can.
There is however one thing that I really, really, would like to see in a space-sim, and I think it's utterly criminal that it still hasn't been done:
Real-world scale.
I only know of Eve Online that has succesfully pulled it off, which would be a fantastic sim if it weren't an MMO. But if someone gave me a game like that, where you could fly around on your overpowered Hyperdrive around the solar system, whizzing by gigantic planets, then stop somewhere off a gas giant and actually trully appreciate the enormous size of the titan even as you hovered some thousands of kilometres off its surface...
Space sims have the ability to touch on one, very deep, fundamental emotion - awe. If I disregarded Freelancer's football-sized planets, it does a very good job of it. It is incredibly atmospheric as well as beautiful and very, very varied - there are debris fields, ice-nebulae, mine-fields... when you venture out to a distant, back-water part of the galaxy the atmosphere is palpable as you drift dangerously between radioactive debris and deadly plasma storms.
And then you have the pretty planet-side visuals, too - it's nice to feel sometimes that you're not just a ship, but that you're actually a person in there, too, and to be able to *see* for yourself where you get, look over all these strange new alien worlds. This is what I want from a good space-sim.
Combat, more often than not, ends up with you sitting in a cockpit, looking and darkness as you frantically try to pan around until you catch sight of a ship, then try to keep a lock on it, before it escapes and starts somehow pummelling you from behind. X3 had lovely visuals, and very pretty music, but from what I've seen of it in the demos it suffers from that boxed-upness of areas... this is the vastness of space, yes, so why is it that invariably all the environments in games like this are confined to a tiny little spot of space somewhere, hovering over a planet perhaps, with no actual ability for you to venture further out and explore the vestiges of space other than where the jump-gates decide to take you?
There's a lot that can be done to capture people's imaginations with space-sims, but instead they merely retread the same soil over, and over and over again.
If anyone can prove me wrong, you're more than welcome to - I sincerely hope you can.
Ohh I remember Allegiance...man that was a great game. The teamwork in multiplayer was so much fun. I almost cried when it crashed and burned. It whent open-source after that but I never tried it. Can still not belive its a Microsoft creation.
I too have fond memories of Tie Fighter and the X-wing games, LucasArts need to get it's act together, I also want a new Rebellion type game, Still have and USE that game today..
I second..or third or whatever that Freelance promised much more then it delivered but that didn't stop me from playing it.
I also like Independence War 2, now that game had a story...
Btw where are all the helicopter sims like Janes Apache or the more arcadeish Commanche series. I miss Novalogic, hope the new Delta Force is gonna be good...
I too have fond memories of Tie Fighter and the X-wing games, LucasArts need to get it's act together, I also want a new Rebellion type game, Still have and USE that game today..
I second..or third or whatever that Freelance promised much more then it delivered but that didn't stop me from playing it.
I also like Independence War 2, now that game had a story...
Btw where are all the helicopter sims like Janes Apache or the more arcadeish Commanche series. I miss Novalogic, hope the new Delta Force is gonna be good...
For me, having a good force feedback flight stick was an essential part of the experience. It helped lend to the illusion that you were actually piloting your ship. I would argue that a lack of high volume sales, coupled with the drying up of IPs that could be used for these game settings and a healthy dose of console gamers has led to the slowing down of this genre. Let's face it, PC gamers have always been a bit more of a different breed and ideas like complex controls and steep learning curves are becoming a thing of the past as games become less and less sophisticated. I don't think gamers are less sophisticated, just that dumbing games down for lcd sales has stunted things.
Freekill said:I too have fond memories of Tie Fighter and the X-wing games, LucasArts need to get it's act together, I also want a new Rebellion type game, Still have and USE that game today..
/quote]
Tbh I don't really know what happened to LucasArts in the past few years. They've gone from producing outstanding games to releasing quite frankly a load of balls.
nightfish said:yeah they released one space fighter game after episode I and it was utter crap. steering was horrible, story to short and the missions boring.Freekill said:I too have fond memories of Tie Fighter and the X-wing games, LucasArts need to get it's act together, I also want a new Rebellion type game, Still have and USE that game today..
/quote]
Tbh I don't really know what happened to LucasArts in the past few years. They've gone from producing outstanding games to releasing quite frankly a load of balls.
what i was missing in the last space sims, like freelancer and darkstar 1 , is the possibility to steer it by joystick. sure its nice to be able to use a mouse if you have no stick but why cant we ahve both. it just doesnt fell like flying when i steer with my mouse. its just like a fps then with no floor.
anyway i was wondering the same why there arent any decent space fighter sims out there any more, id love to see one soon.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE FEEL!!
Wing Commander gave people a "fly by the seat of your pants" feeling. Combat, though unrealistic, was "up close and personal" - more like a WWI sim.
Wing Commander V started to lose the "feeling" because it was too easy. It was fun but played more like an arcade game.
Even though people complained about the video cut-scenes in III and IV, that made it seem like you were really out there as a genuine human hero.
The name of this site is "The Escapist". When a game delivers a genuine feeling that causes a person's dreams to "come alive" that is what will determine the game's success in the long run. At 38 years old, I still yearn for another Wing Commander IV experience.
Some have commented on space sims being to complicated. Details are great as long as it doesn't affect your ability to fly right up on the tail of the guy in front of you and blast pieces off his craft! Also, the combat interface MUST be intuitive. I certainly shouldn't have to look at the keyboard in combat!
If any other space sim flys like Wing Commander IV, please let me know!
Beeb
Wing Commander gave people a "fly by the seat of your pants" feeling. Combat, though unrealistic, was "up close and personal" - more like a WWI sim.
Wing Commander V started to lose the "feeling" because it was too easy. It was fun but played more like an arcade game.
Even though people complained about the video cut-scenes in III and IV, that made it seem like you were really out there as a genuine human hero.
The name of this site is "The Escapist". When a game delivers a genuine feeling that causes a person's dreams to "come alive" that is what will determine the game's success in the long run. At 38 years old, I still yearn for another Wing Commander IV experience.
Some have commented on space sims being to complicated. Details are great as long as it doesn't affect your ability to fly right up on the tail of the guy in front of you and blast pieces off his craft! Also, the combat interface MUST be intuitive. I certainly shouldn't have to look at the keyboard in combat!
If any other space sim flys like Wing Commander IV, please let me know!
Beeb
I always thought the death of the starfighter sim games were due to the rise of third person space shooters like Rogue Squadron. One of my favorite games it X-wing with its game play and a I loved earing metals for the uniform. Even X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter wasn't too bad fixing the problem ship selection but becoming a space sim death match game. However, when I played Rogue Squadron I could get over the strange way the ship flew and seemed to want to auto-correct its flight angle in deep space. This 'arcade' shooters continued with tites such a Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge and other titles while the Wing Commander and X-Wing type games disappeared completely.
Maybe it was the difficulty, though I doubt it as the arcade shooter seem much more difficult to me. May be is was the additional accessory, the joystick, that was needed. Hell, maybe it was the bad Wing Commander movie that did in the genre. I know is I enjoyed battling capital ships with my A-wing.
Maybe it was the difficulty, though I doubt it as the arcade shooter seem much more difficult to me. May be is was the additional accessory, the joystick, that was needed. Hell, maybe it was the bad Wing Commander movie that did in the genre. I know is I enjoyed battling capital ships with my A-wing.
I think the Last Great Game of the Space Sims was a game Called "Independance War 2 - Edge Of Chaos" or "I-War 2" http://www.i-war2.com/
No reason not to buy it now that it is 10 bucks
No reason not to buy it now that it is 10 bucks
I've not really played enough space sims to have a good perspective of how they should be, my experience with space sims is the Starfox series (although from the definition given that may or may not count) the original Descent Freespace and a more recent game for the 360 called Project Sypheed. From the fact that I had heard absolutely nothing about it before seeing it at Blockbuster and renting it, and that it's only about $12-14(USD) used, I would guess Project Sylpheed isn't very popular. It makes sense I suppose, the story is horrible and best ignored and it has a tendency to get repetitive, but I still rather like it. It's freedom of movement is mainly only hurt by the fact that the HUD makes it extremely difficult to discern just how close you are to some objects, the only indicator besides a small meter that tells you your approximate distance from a single target being your own depth perception, the former being unhelpful if you are trying to gauge distance on something else while keeping track of your target and latter being unreliable because you ship can travel at ridiculous speeds with the afterburners on, and I don't mean ridiculous like "Oh hey, motion blur, and I've already caught up to my target, that's great!" I mean, "AHHHAHAHHAHAA! Oh crap I flew past the battle again, now I have to wait for my afterburners to recharge so it doesn't take me 5 minutes to get back." The HUD also has a tendency to get overly cluttered with all the markers indicating enemy fighters (of which there can be a ridiculous amount, or ridiculous for a console game anyways) and destroyers and frigate and carriers and such. And commanding your wing seems a little unnecessary, seeing as how I rarely ran into a ship that was big enough or fast enough for me to need help, more often than not, I just end up making my wingman cover me and letting the rest attack whatever they want.
On the other hand, the freedom of movement and the ability to play around with certain maneuvers such as cutting my engines and turning around while my ship drifts on inertia and targeting the squadron I just flew past with missiles that can lock on up to 60 times (and I don't even have the fully upgraded missiles in my current game, I forgot what the maximum is), which means that the aforementioned unfortunate pilots I just shot past will each probably have at least 5 missiles with their names on them (it only takes two to kill them, but it never hurts to make sure), after which I can target the nearest destroyer and bombard it with torpedoes or a rail-gun or magnetic glaive-thrower, makes for a fun experience. The amount of control given to you in this game surprised me, given that they managed to put these controls on an Xbox 360 controller. The amount of destruction you can cause can make things boring at times, especially in certain missions, such as the one where you are pitted against one enemy pilot who is really difficult to shoot down but it is your objective to do so, the boring part was where I ended up destroying countless numbers of his backup ships, who just kept coming and getting shot down while I was aiming for my objective. Like I said, it's repetitive but fun, and it makes me wish there were more space sims for consoles, because even though I haven't played it in a while, I remember how fun it was to play Descent Freespace, and the level of control in Project Sylpheed is really good in my opinion, and probably a step in the right direction for getting a similar level of control to a PC title. Imagine a console game that gives you such freedom of movement and, unlike Project Sylpheed, has the multiplayer support of Xbox Live or Playstation Network, that would be a great game. Though from what I've read here, it looks as though I've missed most of the good PC space sims, if I thought this computer could handle any of them anymore I'd invest time in trying them out.
On the other hand, the freedom of movement and the ability to play around with certain maneuvers such as cutting my engines and turning around while my ship drifts on inertia and targeting the squadron I just flew past with missiles that can lock on up to 60 times (and I don't even have the fully upgraded missiles in my current game, I forgot what the maximum is), which means that the aforementioned unfortunate pilots I just shot past will each probably have at least 5 missiles with their names on them (it only takes two to kill them, but it never hurts to make sure), after which I can target the nearest destroyer and bombard it with torpedoes or a rail-gun or magnetic glaive-thrower, makes for a fun experience. The amount of control given to you in this game surprised me, given that they managed to put these controls on an Xbox 360 controller. The amount of destruction you can cause can make things boring at times, especially in certain missions, such as the one where you are pitted against one enemy pilot who is really difficult to shoot down but it is your objective to do so, the boring part was where I ended up destroying countless numbers of his backup ships, who just kept coming and getting shot down while I was aiming for my objective. Like I said, it's repetitive but fun, and it makes me wish there were more space sims for consoles, because even though I haven't played it in a while, I remember how fun it was to play Descent Freespace, and the level of control in Project Sylpheed is really good in my opinion, and probably a step in the right direction for getting a similar level of control to a PC title. Imagine a console game that gives you such freedom of movement and, unlike Project Sylpheed, has the multiplayer support of Xbox Live or Playstation Network, that would be a great game. Though from what I've read here, it looks as though I've missed most of the good PC space sims, if I thought this computer could handle any of them anymore I'd invest time in trying them out.
Maybe not so different. That movie embraced a lot what Space Flight Sim lovers love. I am sad it was only contained in under 2 hours. True the gunstar wasn't that sexy a ship, but I definitely got the feel that it was a powerhouse.HalfShadow said:
I miss Xwing Alliance and Tie Fighter....
First off, Wing Commander was my original game and to this day I fire up the DOSBox and give her a go. Actually, I find it's not just space sim games that have been going out, but there haven't been many games solely dedicated to flying, or so I've found. It's actually what made me pre-order (Yes PRE-ORDER) Hawx. It was literally the only joystick jockeying I'd had in YEARS. I know there are games like IL-2 but those were always way to complicated for my tastes. As for the controller issue, I think Freelancer pulled off the best "accessible" scheme. Though I stil would have liked to have seen stick support for that one.
I lost countless hours as a child playing on Tie fighter and X-wing (with the B-wing expansion of course!) and I have to say I would welcome a return to the genre.
I tried Eve online for a bit but it's lack of pace and the difficulties of a newb in that vast area of space show through pretty quickly once the pretty visuals lose their appeal and therefore fail to have their distracting effect.
Darkstar One tried to return to the genre but didn't match up to what the genre's fanbase wanted.
The trick is to get the games "easy to learn, hard to master". Mixing that depth but ease of access is vital to most games but absolutely necessary in the games discussed above, especially if you want to make it an open-world (spcae?) game in the RPGish vein rather than a linear space combat sim.
I tried Eve online for a bit but it's lack of pace and the difficulties of a newb in that vast area of space show through pretty quickly once the pretty visuals lose their appeal and therefore fail to have their distracting effect.
Darkstar One tried to return to the genre but didn't match up to what the genre's fanbase wanted.
The trick is to get the games "easy to learn, hard to master". Mixing that depth but ease of access is vital to most games but absolutely necessary in the games discussed above, especially if you want to make it an open-world (spcae?) game in the RPGish vein rather than a linear space combat sim.
Yeah Gunstar was ugly, but its the ugly ones you gotta keep an eyeout for, cause when least expect it...BAM! Your get yourself Death Blossm'd.samsonguy920 said:
Maybe if they could figure out a way to combine a space sim like Freelancer with an FPS it would get the genre more attention.