Valve Serves Notice on 23 Steam Gambling Sites

[ffronw]

Valve Serves Notice on 23 Steam Gambling Sites

//cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/1337/1337399.jpgValve is directing gambling sites tied to Steam to stop using accounts for commercial purposes.

There's been plenty of controversy lately centered around gambling site for Steam games, especially Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. After it came to light that some of the personalities promoting these sites also owned them, Valve spoke out, officially condemning item gambling [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/167931-Valve-Official-Stance-on-Steam-Gambling]. Now they've taken the next step, issuing cease and desist letters to 23 gambling sites.

The Twitter [http://i.imgur.com/P9S6RWT.jpg] by the official account of one of the affected sites, CSGOBig.com. The post also indicated that the site would be closing "temporarily." Also named in the letter sent by Valve were 22 other sites, including CSGOLotto.com and CSGOLounge.com. There's even one DOTA 2 site on the list.

The letter directs the sites to "immediately cease and desist further use of your Steam accounts for any commercial purpose." There is also a strict deadline imposed. "If you fail to do this within ten (10) days Valve will pursue all available remedies including without limitation terminating your accounts."

As of now, some of the sites have already closed down. CSGOLOtto.com shut down on July 8 after being named in a lawsuit filed by a user. CSGODouble.com and CSDices.com both said last week that they would no longer be accepting deposits. CSGOWealth, which is not named in the letter, has gone with something less subtle, changing their site to a white page that simply reads, "Rip CSGOWealth. Blame Valve."

The recent revelations in the CS:GO community have been like a large rock dropped into a pond, and the ripples are still spreading. Twitch recently banned streaming these sites [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/167947-Twitch-Ban-Steam-Gambling-Sites] as well.

It's interesting to note that Valve isn't calling any of those sites "gambling sites." Instead they're focusing on the violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which is well within their purview. Only time will tell how this one will end, but it's not looking good for the folks who run the sites in question.



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[Scarim Coral]

You know, I just remember that news weeks ago when two Youtube guys were reveal to self promoting these gambling sites despite not mentioning they owned it to the public (especially in one case one of them was able to get an ultra rare item in one bet). Quick search reveal that the site they own is in the notice so I guess it was karma!

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

Valve wrapping up the whole "grey area steam market vitalization" thing?

About time.

 

[Saelune]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

EDIT: For the uninformed, H3H3's video explaining everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8fU2QG-lV0

 

[Sonicron]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

Agreed. The motivation probably mostly comes from trying to save face, but if that's what it takes to improve the situation as a whole then I'll take it.
Tmartn and his ilk can fuck off to the dark pit that spawned them and engage in perpetual anal razorwire sodomy.

 

[BeerTent]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

It may be possible that they had no idea the gambling was going on. I heard only of it just after the controversy hit. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to sit down and say, "Hold up. What CAN we do, what SHOULD we do?"

I don't think it's unreasonable, the time that they took to finally come out and round up as many as they could to take action. More-so when you consider their previous track record for Quality Control. But on the flip-side... If their QC had of been better, maaaaybe this entire controversy could have been avoided entirely. I can't be the only one who might see that, and think, "That can't be right. Someone should probably know about this."

 

[Saelune]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

It may be possible that they had no idea the gambling was going on. I heard only of it just after the controversy hit. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to sit down and say, "Hold up. What CAN we do, what SHOULD we do?"

I don't think it's unreasonable, the time that they took to finally come out and round up as many as they could to take action. More-so when you consider their previous track record for Quality Control. But on the flip-side... If their QC had of been better, maaaaybe this entire controversy could have been avoided entirely. I can't be the only one who might see that, and think, "That can't be right. Someone should probably know about this."

There is no way they did not know...and if they did not know, that is also pretty bad on them to be so oblivious.

There is no positive spin for letting this happen in the first place.

 

[FalloutJack]

Not particularly concerned because I don't gamble, so whatever controversy surrounding this there is, it has little impact on my personally. Ergo, the end result is all that is overall important.

 

[Xeorm]

Still never saw anything wrong with them gambling. People choosing what to do with their money is bad? Sure, the scams that brought on all the attention were scams, but what's wrong with gambling itself?

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

Still never saw anything wrong with them gambling. People choosing what to do with their money is bad? Sure, the scams that brought on all the attention were scams, but what's wrong with gambling itself?

You should probably ask the states that have extremely strict laws on gambling, especially those that don't look kindly on gambling being marketed to children.

It's interesting to note that Valve isn't calling any of those sites "gambling sites." Instead they're focusing on the violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which is well within their purview.

The letter clearly says "We are aware that you own one of the gambling sites listed below." Or were you talking about in official statements?

 

[Vigormortis]

There is no way they did not know...and if they did not know, that is also pretty bad on them to be so oblivious.

Uh....how would they have known? How could they have known?

Genuinely asking. Please explain.

There is no positive spin for letting this happen in the first place.

But how does one prevent a thing from happening when you are unaware it is taking place?

I ask these things not because I'm trying to 'get Valve off the hook', but rather because I genuinely do not understand why are you making these claims.

 

[BeerTent]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

It may be possible that they had no idea the gambling was going on. I heard only of it just after the controversy hit. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to sit down and say, "Hold up. What CAN we do, what SHOULD we do?"

I don't think it's unreasonable, the time that they took to finally come out and round up as many as they could to take action. More-so when you consider their previous track record for Quality Control. But on the flip-side... If their QC had of been better, maaaaybe this entire controversy could have been avoided entirely. I can't be the only one who might see that, and think, "That can't be right. Someone should probably know about this."

There is no way they did not know...and if they did not know, that is also pretty bad on them to be so oblivious.

There is no positive spin for letting this happen in the first place.

I'm not arguing that there's a positive spin, I'm just trying to think as to why it got to this point. Keep in mind, Valve needs to monitor a massive influx of games, DLC, Website API requests, and greenlight submissions every day. That's a lot. Can it be handled better? You bet your ass it can, but this is the reality of the situation. They're woefully under-equipped for that.

And then we also have Steam groups. Unchecked. I've already found a KKK Steam group that (I take that back, they're probably not serious.) (Apparently they REALLY like basketball.)
We also have new Steam accounts, and Steam Profile pages. If I change my profile page 20 times today, should a Valve employee need to sign off on it?
What about new accounts? Steam itself is free. How many new accounts do you think they go through every day from new users alone? What about Ex-cheaters? How many abuses of the API are they looking for?

Steam isn't a closed service of 5000 people. It's a really open service of hundreds of thousands of concurrent users. If one person were to abuse the loving Christ of the system, you won't see the processing power of the server spike. They have hundreds of servers for all of these users. On top of that, who do you pay to browse the internet? Someone who moderates what other websites do would have to be paid if it's their job. What does that person look for? Is it specifically cheating websites? Or Gambling websites? Do they even have a system in place for tracking every time a website tries to do something on steam? Even then, how difficult would it be to have a 3rd party program access Steam when a user clicks a button on the website? I haven't prodded much at all into this gambling stuff, so I don't know what it's like to log into one.

Even for a company as large as, say, Microsoft, or Apple... Even if they owned Steam... I still think that this would have still happened. Realistically, it's a pretty damn tall order to root something out like this as it's starting up.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Valve wrapping up the whole "grey area steam market vitalization" thing?

About time.

Let me tell you what's not on time - Half Life 3.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Now if only they can do something about the shovelware bloating Greenlight.

 

[Saelune]

There is no way they did not know...and if they did not know, that is also pretty bad on them to be so oblivious.

Uh....how would they have known? How could they have known?

Genuinely asking. Please explain.

There is no positive spin for letting this happen in the first place.

But how does one prevent a thing from happening when you are unaware it is taking place?

I ask these things not because I'm trying to 'get Valve off the hook', but rather because I genuinely do not understand why are you making these claims.

If the gambling was a secret, then they wouldn't have been successful. This wasn't a hush hush behind closed doors with secret passwords, nor was it just some friends making personal bets. It was a super profitable business.

The second point is moot since I have no doubt they were aware of it.

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

It may be possible that they had no idea the gambling was going on. I heard only of it just after the controversy hit. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to sit down and say, "Hold up. What CAN we do, what SHOULD we do?"

I don't think it's unreasonable, the time that they took to finally come out and round up as many as they could to take action. More-so when you consider their previous track record for Quality Control. But on the flip-side... If their QC had of been better, maaaaybe this entire controversy could have been avoided entirely. I can't be the only one who might see that, and think, "That can't be right. Someone should probably know about this."

There is no way they did not know...and if they did not know, that is also pretty bad on them to be so oblivious.

There is no positive spin for letting this happen in the first place.

I'm not arguing that there's a positive spin, I'm just trying to think as to why it got to this point. Keep in mind, Valve needs to monitor a massive influx of games, DLC, Website API requests, and greenlight submissions every day. That's a lot. Can it be handled better? You bet your ass it can, but this is the reality of the situation. They're woefully under-equipped for that.

And then we also have Steam groups. Unchecked. I've already found a KKK Steam group that (I take that back, they're probably not serious.) (Apparently they REALLY like basketball.)
We also have new Steam accounts, and Steam Profile pages. If I change my profile page 20 times today, should a Valve employee need to sign off on it?
What about new accounts? Steam itself is free. How many new accounts do you think they go through every day from new users alone? What about Ex-cheaters? How many abuses of the API are they looking for?

Steam isn't a closed service of 5000 people. It's a really open service of hundreds of thousands of concurrent users. If one person were to abuse the loving Christ of the system, you won't see the processing power of the server spike. They have hundreds of servers for all of these users. On top of that, who do you pay to browse the internet? Someone who moderates what other websites do would have to be paid if it's their job. What does that person look for? Is it specifically cheating websites? Or Gambling websites? Do they even have a system in place for tracking every time a website tries to do something on steam? Even then, how difficult would it be to have a 3rd party program access Steam when a user clicks a button on the website? I haven't prodded much at all into this gambling stuff, so I don't know what it's like to log into one.

Even for a company as large as, say, Microsoft, or Apple... Even if they owned Steam... I still think that this would have still happened. Realistically, it's a pretty damn tall order to root something out like this as it's starting up.

Personally I think Valve just doesn't care and lets people do what they want, which is why so many Steam groups are well, messed up. I don't think they don't know, I think Valve has just devolved into a money grubbing whore with no spine until it actually gets to them being potentially sued.

They are small because they choose to be. They are not lacking the money to expand.

 

[Vigormortis]

If the gambling was a secret, then they wouldn't have been successful. This wasn't a hush hush behind closed doors with secret passwords, nor was it just some friends making personal bets. It was a super profitable business.

Right, but it wasn't an issue until it came to light that the sites were A: making use of certain aspects of the SteamID API, which was a violation of the Terms of Use, and B: many of the sites were owned by the same pro players who were promoting the sites.

Valve's response is in regards to those 2 points, not that the gambling sites existed. The essence of the sites, i.e. item betting, isn't in violation of any of the Terms of Use and therefore isn't an issue. The specifics are the issue.

The second point is moot since I have no doubt they were aware of it.

But again, why? Why are you 'so sure'? There's no evidence they knew before hand, and their response to the issues (which, for those in the know, began before their public statement) started when they came to learn about the two points I mentioned above.

This seems almost like paranoia. Like saying, "This whole thing is questionable, of course Valve knew about it because we can't trust Valve!" It's like when everyone insisted EA was spying on our PCs with Origin because, "They're EA! Of course they are!" There was no rhyme or reason to it, no evidence backing it, just "EA is evil, so it's true!" Are you really impl...

Personally I think Valve just doesn't care and lets people do what they want, which is why so many Steam groups are well, messed up. I don't think they don't know, I think Valve has just devolved into a money grubbing whore with no spine until it actually gets to them being potentially sued.

Ah, right. I see. Never mind, then. I've lost interest in the conversation. Good day.

 

[BeerTent]

[...]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

[...]

Even for a company as large as, say, Microsoft, or Apple... Even if they owned Steam... I still think that this would have still happened. Realistically, it's a pretty damn tall order to root something out like this as it's starting up.

Personally I think Valve just doesn't care and lets people do what they want, which is why so many Steam groups are well, messed up. I don't think they don't know, I think Valve has just devolved into a money grubbing whore with no spine until it actually gets to them being potentially sued.

They are small because they choose to be. They are not lacking the money to expand.

Okay, there is one thing I want to nit-pick, and I might be digressing a little bit here, but, it needs to be said.

Valve is a business. A business is in it to make money. You ensure the green revenue number is a bigger number than the red expenditures number. You do this by doing everything in your power to make the money flowing in, and everything in your power to not spend things. To say that Valve... devolved is like saying that they didn't start as a business. They didn't start as a studio. That Half-Life was just free before they just decided one day that, "We have no love anymore. Funnel us money." They're a business, they started as a business, and the objective of every single business is to make money. You calling them money-grubbers is no different than the kids in high-school saying like, Linkin Park was cool before they totally sold out.

Onto the important part. Now, we both, know, that there's some strangely janky shit in the steam Community. KKK playing NBA to some odd Russian group revolving around what appears to be S&M. And they like Hotline Miami. But if we look at the main list for Steam Community groups, we get a page of 50 groups, and there's just under 3 million pages. Now, a lot of these groups are game groups, and it's on the developer to moderate those, but Valve, in the end, has, or is supposed to, have authority over these groups. It's Steam. Let's see how many groups that is that they have to moderate.

(The amount of pages.) x (Results per page.) = (Highball result.)
2,923,950 x 50 = 146,197,500
That's a hundred and forty six Million user-groups that a small team has to moderate.

I can't even imagine moderating the 500 at the end of that. I've worked and moderated sites about the half the size of The Escapist. Game servers, what-have you...

And this is user groups alone. How many fucking Greenlight submissions get tossed in per day? How many before a company decided to have automation take over because the workload is too much, and we need to limit ourselves to spot-checks? New game releases from unknown publishers even? Remember, the initial goal of Greenlight was to let the community decide. If the community wants a game where you take a shit on people from a balcony... Who knows? Balcony Shitter 2k16 could be the next Warframe.

I understand where your coming from, and it's not unreasonable to want quality control in an industry where Aliens: Colonial Marines is a passable product. Where customers are paying to be Beta Testers for Early Access games. But we also need to understand that Steam has grown to be this monolith, this super-massive beast of millions of people on at all times. It's just not possible to moderate every little bit at all times. And the ugly side of things is that when you do spot-checks... Well... You'll catch some, but miss a lot. As of 2013, Valve was only 330 employees large. That's not nearly enough, even if every single one was dedicated to the task.

 

[Saelune]

If the gambling was a secret, then they wouldn't have been successful. This wasn't a hush hush behind closed doors with secret passwords, nor was it just some friends making personal bets. It was a super profitable business.

Right, but it wasn't an issue until it came to light that the sites were A: making use of certain aspects of the SteamID API, which was a violation of the Terms of Use, and B: many of the sites were owned by the same pro players who were promoting the sites.

Valve's response is in regards to those 2 points, not that the gambling sites existed. The essence of the sites, i.e. item betting, isn't in violation of any of the Terms of Use and therefore isn't an issue. The specifics are the issue.

The second point is moot since I have no doubt they were aware of it.

But again, why? Why are you 'so sure'? There's no evidence they knew before hand, and their response to the issues (which, for those in the know, began before their public statement) started when they came to learn about the two points I mentioned above.

This seems almost like paranoia. Like saying, "This whole thing is questionable, of course Valve knew about it because we can't trust Valve!" It's like when everyone insisted EA was spying on our PCs with Origin because, "They're EA! Of course they are!" There was no rhyme or reason to it, no evidence backing it, just "EA is evil, so it's true!" Are you really impl...

Personally I think Valve just doesn't care and lets people do what they want, which is why so many Steam groups are well, messed up. I don't think they don't know, I think Valve has just devolved into a money grubbing whore with no spine until it actually gets to them being potentially sued.

Ah, right. I see. Never mind, then. I've lost interest in the conversation. Good day.

Why do I have to be the spokesperson for this? There are plenty of people more eloquent than I, and more informed who can explain this to you. Don't need to be so high and mighty just because I have opinions.

H3H3, Totalbiscuit, and Jim Sterling are 3 recommendations for more info, as they all have videos explaining this stuff.

[...]

Why yes, I will blame Valve...for doing the right thing...eventually...mostly to save their own asses...but hey, the outcome is still positive.

[...]

Even for a company as large as, say, Microsoft, or Apple... Even if they owned Steam... I still think that this would have still happened. Realistically, it's a pretty damn tall order to root something out like this as it's starting up.

Personally I think Valve just doesn't care and lets people do what they want, which is why so many Steam groups are well, messed up. I don't think they don't know, I think Valve has just devolved into a money grubbing whore with no spine until it actually gets to them being potentially sued.

They are small because they choose to be. They are not lacking the money to expand.

Okay, there is one thing I want to nit-pick, and I might be digressing a little bit here, but, it needs to be said.

Valve is a business. A business is in it to make money. You ensure the green revenue number is a bigger number than the red expenditures number. You do this by doing everything in your power to make the money flowing in, and everything in your power to not spend things. To say that Valve... devolved is like saying that they didn't start as a business. They didn't start as a studio. That Half-Life was just free before they just decided one day that, "We have no love anymore. Funnel us money." They're a business, they started as a business, and the objective of every single business is to make money. You calling them money-grubbers is no different than the kids in high-school saying like, Linkin Park was cool before they totally sold out.

Onto the important part. Now, we both, know, that there's some strangely janky shit in the steam Community. KKK playing NBA to some odd Russian group revolving around what appears to be S&M. And they like Hotline Miami. But if we look at the main list for Steam Community groups, we get a page of 50 groups, and there's just under 3 million pages. Now, a lot of these groups are game groups, and it's on the developer to moderate those, but Valve, in the end, has, or is supposed to, have authority over these groups. It's Steam. Let's see how many groups that is that they have to moderate.

(The amount of pages.) x (Results per page.) = (Highball result.)
2,923,950 x 50 = 146,197,500
That's a hundred and forty six Million user-groups that a small team has to moderate.

I can't even imagine moderating the 500 at the end of that. I've worked and moderated sites about the half the size of The Escapist. Game servers, what-have you...

And this is user groups alone. How many fucking Greenlight submissions get tossed in per day? How many before a company decided to have automation take over because the workload is too much, and we need to limit ourselves to spot-checks? New game releases from unknown publishers even? Remember, the initial goal of Greenlight was to let the community decide. If the community wants a game where you take a shit on people from a balcony... Who knows? Balcony Shitter 2k16 could be the next Warframe.

I understand where your coming from, and it's not unreasonable to want quality control in an industry where Aliens: Colonial Marines is a passable product. Where customers are paying to be Beta Testers for Early Access games. But we also need to understand that Steam has grown to be this monolith, this super-massive beast of millions of people on at all times. It's just not possible to moderate every little bit at all times. And the ugly side of things is that when you do spot-checks... Well... You'll catch some, but miss a lot. As of 2013, Valve was only 330 employees large. That's not nearly enough, even if every single one was dedicated to the task.

Just because you're a business, doesn't mean you have to be terrible. The goal of making money doesn't excuse morally unjust methods. Letting children gamble, or even adults without regulations to prevent fraud, aren't excusable because of capitalistic greed. CD Project seems to be doing a good job of making money and not abusing customers with GoG.