145: It's A Yaoi Thing

[Leigh Alexander]

Not really a fan either, but for some reason lots of the anime series I watch seem to become popular with yaoi fans, so I come across it often. And the thing that I catch most often that people seem to like isn't overt sexual interaction -- it looks to me like a big part of yaoi's draw is to see the undertones and the subtlety of the male relationships.

I do know some people who like yaoi and they don't like sex scenes -- they just want to see well-drawn, beloved male characters as if they were getting a glimpse into that man's most private life. Men are rarely emotionally intimate with each other in our society in front of girls -- we girls don't get a chance to see men expressing close emotional feelings to other men very often. So maybe by being able to see favorite media characters doing this, it makes girls feel closer to them?

 

[Akatsuki_slave]

Another point I liked is about the "hyper-feminine" appearance of some of these characters. Okay, Im no expert on this stuff, but I have to say sometimes I find the extremely feminine appearance of some of those Japanese characters to be annoying and perhaps even a little offensive. Mainly just because it doesnt fit with my experience as a guy, and all the other guys I know. I understand its a cultural thing, but this entire "only feminine = beautiful" pisses me off. I have never seen a guy look so much like a women unless they were specifically trying to do so.

This comparison is not quite the same thing I know, but if women get pissed off about unrealistic physical depictions of women (freakishly large breasts, chainmail bikinis, etc.), surely its okay for me to get pissed off about these unrealistically feminine looking guys. Guys who have (from what I have seen, so I know its not the definitive) no facial or body hair, soft facial features, and skinny bodies devoid of any bulk or muscle. I think its great some women have found an outlet that gives them pleasure, but Id like to think Im doing a similar thing to when other women object to an unrealistic ideal of female beauty. (Though to be fair, I understand that unrealistic depictions of women and what they should be like is far, far more widespread than this Yaoi business).

Umm, have you ever been to Japan? I just moved back to the US after living there for a year and I've never seen so many beautiful men in my life. Generally, Japanese men are slender and feminine looking from a western point of view. Plus, it's part of their society for the men to look like that. Believe me, the guy with the best hair, thinnest body and whatnot is getting the most action. And since most yaoi is Japanese, that's why they look like that. For them, and a lot of western women who like Japanese guys, it's a hot look. Plus, aren't you being a little ethnocentric since your definition of masculine is western? Come on!

You can be pissed off all you like. Sure, they women are unrealistic (though it doesn't piss me off), but I saw a lot of guys in Japan that looked like they jumped off of the page of a manga. Just to let you know. . . .

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Excellent article, and I wholeheartedly agree with SykoSilver. I'm fine with female fans of yaoi, I think it's awesome that people are so broad-minded. But I really think that it's at least a teeny bit obvious that gay men are going to read them as well, so it's pretty stupid to gear it only towards the female fans.

I guess my question is, it's pretty stupid of *who* to gear it only towards female fans? These all started out as underground media, sexual material produced by women for women. The fact that it is now commercially available doesn't change that, just like the fact that actual lesbians might watch "girl-on-girl" porn doesn't change the fact that it was really never intended for them. Personally, I'd love to see actual gay guys writing slash and drawing doujinshi for each other (not to show the women "how to do it properly.") After all, gay men would be the experts on what gay men want, not straight women.

Perhaps you think it's stupid that publishers don't publish "real gay" yaoi. Perhaps, I don't really have any idea what the market for that would be. What I do know that ever since there were mimeograph machines, photocopiers, and then the internet, the slash writers and doujinshi artist didn't wait for the publishing companies to start signing them. The publishers just managed to carve out a bit paying market out of a long-standing not-for-profit circulation network. If you want a network like that for gay guys, gay guys are going to have to build it. If I want lesbian porn for lesbians, lesbians are going to have to make it. It's absolutely a DIY phenomenon at heart.

Then again, a lot of the stuff that is geared to women doesn't bother me, because I am an absolute sucker for Hurt/Comfort, Fluff and Romance fics with lots of warm, fuzzy, lovey-dovey dialogue. Although, a bit of PWP is quite nice, too.

For those of you that do like Yaoi, what mangas do you read/recommend? I've read a couple online, although I can't remember the names, and I'm more of a Slash fan.

You might really like Saika Kunieda, whose work is readily available in scanlation on a number of sites and is finally being licensed and released in the U.S. You might also like Satosumi Takaguchi, whose work is heavy on angst and shmoop. Homerun Ken can also be quite good though the protagonists tend to be a bit youngish.

 

[Gamergyrl]

It's always interesting to read other's opinions about yaoi, especially those who can articulate themselves well. But for the record, I'd like to say that Underground Hotel is not the standard when it comes to that genre; that book freaked me out when I picked it up.

And I have to agree with Akatsuki_slave on the beautiful men part. I used to live there too, and the Japanese artists certainly didn't make that up. Sure, some men are drawn with very feminine features (something I don't like myself), but Japanese men are really...pretty. It's better to be metrosexual over there, and that's how you show your masculinity. I prefer my rough and gruff men better, but they do make nice eye candy.

And I have no problem with yaoi being for women, by women. Though now that it's commercialized, you do keep seeing the same thing over and over again. I don't think the American companies are always bringing over the best material, like the books that break the mold. But I also don't think that yaoi is supposed to be any more than a fantasy, just like shoujo manga or shounen manga. Everyone would like to date the coolest guy in school or be able to beat up bad guys with a cool sword, but it's just a fantasy. Even romance manga is the same; when was the last time you had three guys (or three girls) lined up for your affections? It's not supposed to be realistic. I'm against that rape theme in yaoi manga, but I do like the sweet themes.

For those of you that do like Yaoi, what mangas do you read/recommend? I've read a couple online, although I can't remember the names, and I'm more of a Slash fan.

My biggest suggestion is Fake by Sanami Matoh. It's just a good series in general, about two NY policemen who fall in love. Paradise on the Hill by Momoko Tenzen is another good one for fluff. I like cracky, crazy titles myself, but those are just what I've thought of myself.

As for the 50% rape statistic, I think there's a big difference between a rape fantasy and wanting to be ravished. Rape is about power and domination, not about sex or pleasure. Ravishing is more like a man taking control to pleasure a woman. I'm sure there are women out there who want a man to be a bit more forceful in pleasuring them, but I can't think of a woman who would actually want to be raped.

 

[stompy]

Not really a fan either, but for some reason lots of the anime series I watch seem to become popular with yaoi fans, so I come across it often. And the thing that I catch most often that people seem to like isn't overt sexual interaction -- it looks to me like a big part of yaoi's draw is to see the undertones and the subtlety of the male relationships.

I do know some people who like yaoi and they don't like sex scenes -- they just want to see well-drawn, beloved male characters as if they were getting a glimpse into that man's most private life. Men are rarely emotionally intimate with each other in our society in front of girls -- we girls don't get a chance to see men expressing close emotional feelings to other men very often. So maybe by being able to see favorite media characters doing this, it makes girls feel closer to them?

That's quite an interesting thought. I haven't read any yaoi (more of an anime fan myself), but if a portion of them focus on more subtly, and hinted romances, instead of blatent sex (or 'rape', which seems to be drawing quite a discussion here), then I suppose it allows for women to cater to their 'I wanna see a man emotionally vent' thing.

On this topic on rape mentioned in this article, I'll offer my 2 cents. Yes, there is rape, where a man forcefully fucks (sorry, I can't think of another word; my vocabulary's poor) a woman (painful for the woman). This is not for sex, per se, but for the perpetrator (yes, man can be raped as well) to get an ego boost; it's dominance/power thing. But I think the 'rape' that is spoken of in this article is one where the man/whoever takes control of the 'situation', but the party being subdued wilfully submits, and actually enjoys the aggressiveness of the dominant party. So, this rape is where, while initially one party may struggle, or even refuse, but in the end, both parties enjoy the experience. If you want something closer to actual rape, try the 'love scene' in The Fountainhead. Ayn Rand likes her sex violent.

- A procrastinator

 

[Girlysprite]

I might actually check those suggestions out

I also know some gay people in Real life and I know they are nothing like the books. Hell, one of them makes more dirty jokes then any heterosexual I know, not exactly the soft, tender and metero sexual type. Msaybe i should give him one of those books to joke back.

Oh and, I know there is man-man porn for gays out there. And not even little. There are also romance stories (on film) of man-man couples out there, they just aren't main stream, but they are there.

 

[Silverookami]

First and foremost, for the record: Yes, I am a yaoi-fangirl, and now for my two cents.
Both the article and everyone's comments here seem to mostly focus on professional works of yaoi and gloss over the literal tonne of fanbased projects on the internet. The characters we choose aren't always the willowy fragile types, and although I admit we often gravitate to the more conventionally good looking characters, that can be said to be true of anyone writing of any sexual preference.
It can also be complained that a yaoi writer's portrayal of a gay relationship isn't accurate. True. (This can also definitly be said of girlxgirl porn that exists out there for mainly male viewers) However, anyone who complains of this should also read a couple volumes of a heterosexual romance also written by women for women. It's not very realistic either, is it? These are stories for a reason, they highten the drama, provide tension and challenges, and are usually overcome by the end so that there can be a romantic conclusion that wraps things up nicely. This is true of both yaoi and any heterosexual fiction.
So you want a realistic portrayal? My best friend is gay. Do I really want to read about his realistic life as a gay guy? Hell no. It's boring. He does the exact same thing as any of my friends and leads a regular life as is his right. His life, like my own admittedly, would make for a very boring story. I read fiction as an escape from reality, I want fantastic situations, challenging obstacles, emotional confessions, all that high drama stuff.
And just as a final point: Straight guys don't usually go around complaining that Bodice-rippers and other heterosexual romance stories are portraying their type of relationship inaccurately, so why complain about gay fiction written intentionally to be marketed to women? There are plenty of sources that cater to the tastes of guys both straight and gay, and yeah, they're usually made by guys for guys. There's plenty for everyone out there.

 

[Break]

I'm enjoying how people are talking about the differences between "yaoi written for women" and "yaoi written for men", when I happen to be a guy that rather enjoys the former. Not a gay guy, admittedly, but the point still stands.

As Silver said, the fact that most yaoi stars are extremely feminine isn't something to do with who it's being marketed to. In anime or manga, if a guy is good looking, he could win a beauty pagent if he put on a skirt and kept his mouth shut. Well, I say "could". It's actually a fairly common situation. It's just a culture where "hot" and "manly" are polar opposites. If a butch guy exists, he's mostly for comic relief.

 

[Muphin_Mann]

There's nothing like yaoi? Then I guess yiff and tentacle rape are green light? Hell, those japs are real scary, thinking that a man rape is realy nothing, but if you bone a woman against ther will (she didn't knew she wanted it, but she clearly did) it's now gruesome and you're suddently are worse than Hitler and Rosie O'Donnel.

Interesting sentiment with the rape thing and the "japs" being scary. Im going to assume that your being satirical (kinda a "Modest Proposal" type thing) rather than the alternative.

And i believe the bit about 50% of women and rape fantasies. I've known a few.

 

[Girlysprite]

Silver, I first ran into the term Yaoi through fan based stories. Some of them were written well and could fit into a professional magazine even. as for the non-masculine types in Yaoi...The only fanfictions i ever read were from DragonballZ. There is no non-masculine in that series I think it doesn't really make a difference for me.

 

[Aussiboy]

As others have pointed out the 50% rape thing for women is a bit unbelievable for me but who knows ? moving on. Overall the article for me was well written and had good content and some intrusting points on how and why yaoi is so popular. As a gay guy who likes yaoi I can see why most gay males would be put off by its overly feminine guys when put in a romantic setting then again most yaoi is written by women for women like the article stated so I cant argue that point any way yaoi is a great form of manga and should be more widely praised.

Oh one more thing do characters from games say like Kingdome hearts, if there put into a yaoi setting dos it become a yaoi or something ells?

 

[Silverookami]

Oh one more thing do characters from games say like Kingdome hearts, if there put into a yaoi setting dos it become a yaoi or something ells?

...*glances over at her Roxas avatar* Yes, pretty much. Since you're playing around with other characters though you have to keep in mind that it's just your interpretation of their relationship. One of the reason yaoi fangirls annoy many people is that they often act as though their way of seeing a couple, like Axel and Roxas from KH2 for example, is the only way to see it and is obviously what their creator intended. When you use characters created by someone else it's fine to envision them in yaoi situations and spend hours online reading or writing fanfiction about them etc, just realize that it's perfectly as valid from the storyline of the game to accept Roxas and Namine as a couple. Yaoi fangirls often forget this.
So basically, yeah if you're putting two guys from Japanese source material together as a couple, it's yaoi (or one of the related terms like shonen-ai or BL) If they come from Western English speaking source material, it's called slash. It's all the same thing though, it refers to two fictional guys in a romantic relationship. You just have to remember the difference between canon yaoi (in which the creator has expressly stated or communicated through their medium that his/her characters are gay) and fanon yaoi, in which the couple is never stated to be gay, but is assumed to be so or desired to be so by the fans and put into a fan created setting in which they are given this opportunity.

Silver, I first ran into the term Yaoi through fan based stories. Some of them were written well and could fit into a professional magazine even. as for the non-masculine types in Yaoi...The only fanfictions i ever read were from DragonballZ. There is no non-masculine in that series I think it doesn't really make a difference for me.

To be honest the looks don't matter much to me either, it's the personalities of the characters that are most important. I first stumbled across yaoi randomly online through fanfiction, and yes, many are well written enough to seem professional. I'm very thankful to the internet because it has given many talented people the opportunity to show off their work that would otherwise never be seen. It's just an oddity ofthe internet fandom universe these days that yaoi or slash fiction seems to vastly outnumber straight fics for a lot of different series'.

 

[GloatingSwine]

One of the reason yaoi fangirls annoy many people is that they often act as though their way of seeing a couple, like Axel and Roxas from KH2 for example, is the only way to see it and is obviously what their creator intended.

All shippers do that, no matter the particular combination of genders they have alighted upon. I still think the worst are the Harry/Hermione crowd in the Potter fandom, as they are known to exclaim that the author got it wrong when their chosen ship didn't set sail.

 

[Surggical_Scar]

Maybe it's just me, being rather Au-Fait with Yaoi and the like, but aside from being a rough guide to this subgenre, was there anything else you were trying to get across?

A good read, I'll admit, but not a whole lot else.

 

[Panda Convoy]

Good read, thank you. Nothing much I didn't know, but entertaining none the less. I thought about saying something but I think enough has already been said, so I'll just leave it at a "whoo, gay porn!" and be done.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Maybe it's just me, being rather Au-Fait with Yaoi and the like, but aside from being a rough guide to this subgenre, was there anything else you were trying to get across?

A good read, I'll admit, but not a whole lot else.

I have to agree with this. Perhaps it's just that the article was written for people who have never heard of yaoi/BL? I would have liked to see a bit more Japanese cultural context as well, such as the fact that straight rock stars in Japan cross-dress and their straight female fans love it and it is not considered "gay", or that the Japanese standard of beauty is in itself rather androgynous.

There's also a notable tendency in commercially produced yaoi for the characters to NOT identify as gay, they are just two guys who happened to fall in love with someone of the same sex, or if they have a history of same-sex affairs, will stoutly insist they are NOT gay, they are BI! Self-identified gay characters are actually pretty rare in yaoi and are usually secondary characters who give love/sex advice to the main characters.

 

[stompy]

All shippers do that, no matter the particular combination of genders they have alighted upon. I still think the worst are the Harry/Hermione crowd in the Potter fandom, as they are known to exclaim that the author got it wrong when their chosen ship didn't set sail.

Please, let's not go to the Harry Potter fanfic. That thing is a monster on its own. No, seriously. At last count, the fanfic filebase is nearly at 400,000.

- A procrastinator

 

[kahori]

I'm a huge fan of yaoi and have been for over two years now but this was still a fascinating read and a great insight to the genre I love. Many things I didn't know or hadn't considered ^_^ Also, the response is fascinating and mature.

I stumbled upon yaoi on the internet and though there are certain genres I personally dislike (shota with really young boys...), I don't find anything wrong with yaoi: as it's been said its like guys enjoying lesbian porn if they want. As long as people don't take it too seriously though, as let's face it...it's one huge (smexy) fantasy

Oh, and under grand hotel is disgusting. I found the story really weak and even the smut wasn't so good. If you're interested in yaoi try Yamane Ayano first. Viewfinder is excellent, smutty but beautiful . Also crimson spell mixes the supernatural and yaoi. I've read so much though that no others come to mind!! There is alot of Yaoi around though, and it really does fit into sub genres and different types and levels of smutty-ness.

 

[SykoSilver]

Sorry, I kinda forgot about this conversation. I'm back, though!

My problem isn't so much with by-women-for-women gay fiction, but rather a complete lack of published material targeted for men. And it's not just that people haven't made an effort, I think such material has a certain stigma around it. I definitely think it's more appropriate for a female to read gay fiction than for a male to do so, and that really rubs me the wrong way, since homosexuality is more of a part of my life than a female reader's life. It seems like as far as gay fiction goes, this facet of my life is merely there for the entertainment of women-- because that's all that's out there. I also have a problem with how fangirls tend to take yaoi. I am really sick of feminine comments directed towards me as a gay man by women who are under some delusion that gay guys are girly. Yaoi, regardless of its Japanese origins, is perpetuating these stereotypes.