120: The Angel in the Guild

[Melody Lutz]

The Angel in the Guild

"On the other hand, she's noticed that some male players seem to think anything a woman says or does is dramatic. 'Girls in games constantly have to be on guard to not look like they're causing drama - as their very presence sometimes creates it. It's like throwing meat to the lions, so to speak. If lions were competitive, hormone-enraged 20-something guys.' She says the volatile atmosphere encourages silence from women. 'Most of the women hide. They don't want the attention.'"

Melody Lutz speaks to Christine O'Reilly, a woman playing a man's game - and winning.


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[Spinwhiz]

I have been an EQ2 guild leader since it started and I used to deal with drama. Finally, I just didn't care anymore. People were making the game into real life and I wasn't going to take it. If they had an actual in-game problem, I would try to help and solve it. But if it was some stupid drama between people and they weren't mature enough (which I've seen a good percentage of the MMO world NOT be mature enough) to deal with it themselves, I would let them take it to tells and see what happened from there. One of the people would just leave the guild, yes we raided also so that hurt us, but I'm not going to beg someone to stay and mediate between two people in a GAME...it's not real! When I came to this realization that people pay 15 bucks a month to have fun, I told everyone who was threatening to leave the guild (because it always happens in every guild, in every game) to just go. I don't pay for their subscription, so do what makes you happy. If that is leaving, so be it. If you want to talk it out, np, we can do that too.

I had 6 females in my guild (they were on Teamspeak, so yes, I know they were actually women), one being a raid leader, another an officer, and we never had problems. The women would tell the guys exactly where to stick it if they were taking any crap. Once that happened, there was never a problem again. I have to give credit to women who play MMOs. They have to mainly deal with a lot of stereotypical MMO guys and good lord, even I don't want to do that!

 

[Verithrax]

I've played online text-based games - MUD with player-run organisations much like, or perhaps even more important than the guilds of Everquest or Wow - for years now, and curiously I never saw this sort of behaviour. While women aren't quite as prevalent they're almost as likely to take leadership positions in-game.

More sophisticated audience, perhaps?

 

[Alexandra Erenhart]

I have a female in my guild who always take raid leadership spots, and she's an officer too. She does a great job at it, and while from time to time we get drama in the guild, is definitely not the female's fault, but all guildies related to it, males and females. Males provoke as much drama as females, but they just do it in another way.

 

[DM [deprecated]]

I'm male but also a Women's Studies Major, and this article was particularly interesting in light of performative gender theory (re: Judith Butler). Butler believes that gender is a performance (usually not a conscious performance, but one built on social norms), not innate. Here, we have quite a few males demonstrating emotional vulnerability and feelings, but they only feel comfortable talking to a female about it because showing emotion is supposedly a female attribute. However, the very fact that they have these strong emotions and feel the need to express them is clear evidence that males are just as capable of showing emotion as females.

It's good that this guild found an outlet, but in some ways Christine seems like a crutch. Instead, I'd like to see a culture where sharing one's feelings was normalized and dialogue was valued instead of all of it going on "behind the scenes." Drama precipitates when people don't attempt to talk to one another about their problems civilly and openly and, obviously, this guild never learned to do that (hence, their breakup after Christine left).

Anyway, interesting article. I like The Escapist's explorations of gender, identity, etc. It'd be nice to see more insight and less "human interest" journalism, though, in my opinion. But, of course, still doing a great job. Thanks.

 

[Katana314]

I agree with Merlynn. It's an issue, but it's really starting to seem to me like The Escapist has come up with nothing else to talk about.

 

[Bongo Bill]

Much as I liked the article, I'm going to have to agree it's starting to feel like we're beating a dead horse.

Then again, games media write about what's on gamers' minds, and until a comfortable norm is found, tricky gender issues are going to be on gamers' minds. If The Escapist feels comfortable slaughtering this goose, rather than publishing these increasingly predictable golden eggs, its philosopher-journalists could start searching for a solution....

Anyway, the subject of this article strikes me as very wise. By recognizing two facts - first, that people interact differently based on the sex of their company; and second, that most players are not mature enough to recognize that not every guild in the game is going to have the same kind of company - she is able to make things smoother for a lot of players. And if she wants to do that (evidently, at the end, she decided it was too much trouble), then more power to her.

But it doesn't escape the root of the problem: some people think that every guild in WoW is already a veritable gentleman's club, and some people think that every guild should be totally open. A third faction - I daresay the largest - exhibits extreme annoyance when these two factions come into contact with each other, producing conflict. Not to mention that members of the first two faction mistakenly accuse members of the third of being a member of the other of the first two.

 

[UnSub]

The thing about games like WoW is they emulate war. And war requires you be able to withstand all kinds of abuse and punishment.

... but (if you want to take the "emulate war" stance) that abuse and punishment should come from your opponents, not your own team.

None of this is new. If you read anything about the challenges that femiminsm dealt with women entering predominantly male-dominated work places, you'll see the same stories coming up. The way Christine O'Reilly is dealing with it is by having all of the strengths of being a woman (e.g. better communication skills, having people open up to her), but not being allowed to have any of the weaknesses (e.g. being subject to sexual harassment, or being the default guild mother figure and spend extra time dealing with drama). That's a way that works on an individual level, but it doesn't change anything - she leaves a top guild, only to have to reprove herself to players again willing to dismiss her or reduce her based on her gender alone.

So yeah, this is still an issue that requires attention. MMOs shouldn't require woman to put up with behaviour that would be offensive in any other setting in order for them to be involved. It shouldn't need to become a pissing contest between you and the person who is insulting you (because that really creates guild stability, doesn't it?). It just goes to show that there is still a lack of respect in some MMOs for other players, especially along gender lines.

However, the one thing about this article I have to disagree with is that O'Reilly is "winning" in a male dominated arena. She isn't. Her guild broke up, she apparently hasn't gotten into another guild or three (by here choice or not) and is now waiting for a game that isn't yet released so that she and her BF can start a guild there. That's hardly a female victory story for the ages.

 

[jaded [deprecated]]

As a hardcore female mmo gamer since the days of muds, mushes and moos whose ran numerous guilds and currently plays in a WOW Pvp guild with several hundred.. I notice it is less and less unlikely to have other females in the guilds these days (real ones from the sounds on Ventrilo). I have never seen a guild that didn't allow females or one that seemed to think females caused drama any more so than males. That being said, I think it is very possible for people to attract drama-- ie..encouraging calls and personal issues and going to the gm with issues for others. Regarding "male offensive" behavior.. and someone stating MMO's shouldn't require women to put up with such-- I'd rephrase that to MMO's shouldn't make anyone HAVE to put up with such--and they don't. There are ignore buttons, gquit buttons and a x key that usually works if you're bothered by such whether you're male or female.

 

[Chilango2]

It's interesting, needless to say, how Christine fit into her guild by using traditional female roles as her strength within it. Certainly this article explores the oft mentioend issue of "women in games" at a deeper perpective that brings out the complexities of the problem more into view, and criticisms that the topic is somehow exhausted are, I think, unfair.

It's not the topic, but rather the quality of the entry into it that merits attention (after all, high numbers of articles have been written about MMO's, and violence in videogames, and yet, by and large protests that these are "overdone subjects" don't seem to come up as often..hmm..)

Furthermore, any claim that games are the last place where we can "compete without consequence" gets, to a certain extent, to the core of the problem. Men have had wide and open spaces to act without consequence or thought of their actions not just to women, but to each other, but of course, any thought that such consequences do not actually exist is a fantasy, if the game involves other players. Any competition that draws people in will draw some emotional investment, more especially if people knit themselves into social units such as guilds, wherein the dynamics of socialization and friendship become relevent. Tyr as you might, other people's thoughts and feelings are involved. Yes, it si just a game, but so is soccer, and any number of other sports where we do not accept people acting like egregious sexists or misogynists. Quite simply, acting in this matter to other people is not a polite or mature way of behaving, and has nothing to do with "fun", or at the very least represents a limits scope of fun, the type the bully has over his victim.

Insofar as women are entering gaming, it is hoped that the boys playing there are being influenced, if ever so slowly, to expand their horizons and grow up sufficiently to react to the presence of 50% of the population with some control and maturity, a bar so high we often except it of ten year olds.

 

[Info]

I'd like to emphasize that a on online vent and teamspeak. Women need to talk more and get their members past the whole 'she is a women' stage. But I do encourage to have 'drama' in sexist comments said by the male members in the guild. It is a bad atmosphere to be in, and should be molded into something better.
Think of a coach training some students. "you throw like a girl," would be deemed inappropriate talk, AND very bad subliminal influence to the people on the team. Research shows that this can teach domestic violence in the future of these kids/men. Domestic violence is a very much reality, and should definitely be tamed as early as the verbal level.

A guild environment is very much so as that of a team; and will be a good opportunity for these people to get themselves into gear.
Don't let this culture stay, I know several campaigns that try to fight this; atleast here in Massachusetts. Like the "Coaching boys to men" seminars, etc. I think their website was endabuse.org. (I only know of them cause they did a seminar I attended at the hospital [MGH] I volunteer at.)
An example of their coaching seminars: http://toolkit.endabuse.org/Resources/CoachingBoys.html


Also interesting that this came from escapist, if you check out Whitney Butts [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/profiles/view/Teleios] escapist article OMG Girlz Don't Exist on teh Intarweb!!!!1 [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_17/109-OMG-Girlz-Don-t-Exist-on-teh-Intarweb-1.4] she talks about her experience in such women based abuse. But since that whining, she has highly integrated into her guild Shadow Syndicate [(ssguild.org) now found on the Mug'thol server; Horde] where now she is its guild master and is highly respected beyond that relative to her position. The guild chat can't be dictated to prevent such verbal abuse, because we know that impossible. But it is minimized greatly, and the environment is open for people to express themselves fully without any question in masculinity/or such. (yeah I was part of that guild; but quit WoW overall; quitting WoW is great way to boost your test scores I'd emphasize).

So I am saying, it is all possible. Just strive on and get there!

 

[goodpoltergeist]

I don't think it's really women that cause drama, I think it's MMO's themselves lol.

But this girl sounds amazing. I want to know more. I want to learn from her, learn how better to manage a guild. This is an excellent article

 

[radianttwilight]

There is nothing particularly amazing about being a girl in an MMO that is dominantly made up of males, just as there's nothing special about girls playing sports. Guys who play MMOs or any video game who is still shocked over, "ZOMG IT'S A GURL! DROOOLLZZ" really needs to get out more often. And the girls who go, "I have boobs, a vag, and I play video games. I'm SOOO COOL!" need to get over themselves as well.

Girls in games constantly have to be on guard to not look like they're causing drama.

I completely disagree with this statement. A girl who plays an MMO is going to act just as she does in real life -- if she's a drama-monger outside of game, then she'll be one in game too. If she?s serious about the game, then she?s going to put in just as much effort as any male to show that she?s here to win.

There's nothing different in the virtual society than there is in a real society. People will cause drama regardless of gender. There are those people out there - male and female - who will blow up over the tiniest little things, and there are those who just don't give two shits about anything. As for the whole emotional thing, doesn't that seem to work the same way in real life as well? Guys don't go around sharing his emotional frustrations with an authority figure unless they feel comfortable with that. Why would it be any different in game? In any case, people are people, regardless of the medium of which they interact.

I don't know, maybe I'm being catty, but articles like this where girl gamers flaunt their abilities of being good at a game while being female drive me nuts. Yes, it's possible to be female and be good at something that is seen as a prominently male pastime. There are four females in my guild, including myself, and the guild has killed Illidan. Would it have made any difference if we were male? No, definitely not. Would it have made a difference if there were more females? Absolutely not. Gender isn't an issue, it's dedication and having a common goal.

 

[Info]

You shouldn't get angry over articles like these. They all benefit towards sociological data for studies and such research. You DO learn from these things, even if it is not immediate.

Sociology is a great thing, you'll be required to take it in college (or earlier in high-school for some); its quite fun and beneficial.

 

[Joe]

Sociology is a great thing, you'll be required to take it in college (or earlier in high-school for some); its quite fun and beneficial.

Obviously you didn't take the same Soc class I did.

 

[Kuroe [deprecated]]

My response is apparently too long to fit into one "comment." :x Anyway here we go.

While this was well-written, I remain horrified after reading it. Good journalism *should* involve extensive research into the topic about which one writes, and contain more facts or at the very least more opinions than just that of -one- individual. If nothing else, you should have researched your interviewee's server and guild history with a bit more care. She is hardly a reputable individual.

I am a female player of World of Warcraft, and am a member of the guild which Ms. O'Reilly attempted to join prior to quitting. Our guild has many female players and does not think it anything special to be a girl in a video game. We have five active raiding female players, all very skilled, and all able to hold their own against the male players in the guild. It is nothing new to us to have a girl in the guild, or as an applicant. We trust our female players as much as our males to pull their own weight. She did not pull hers, and thus did not earn herself a solid raid spot. This was her main complaint. Unfortunately, Ms. O'Reilly seemed to expect special treatment as an applicant - something that was not given her. In the game, as in life, whenever people speak of "equality," there is always a risk of going too far and becoming "favortism." What she demanded of our guild was *not* equality. She wanted to be treated better than other applicants, and it was unreasonable.

Simply put, she was not a good player, and would have been declined based upon her lack of skill eventually, regardless of her sentiments about our leadership. Her attitude was poor, her skill was low, and she did not fit in with the guild. What she calls "specializing in the more covert, nebulous work of interpersonal conflict resolution" is what most people would refer to as a "guild mother." She wanted to join us as a "guild mother." We did not need, nor want one. If anything, she was actually marketing herself as a "woman" and not as a "gamer." If anyone was making her role "sexist", it was herself. You train people how to treat you. This is true in both life, and in game. Contrary to what this article might make one think - the internet is honestly the great equalizer. Real life looks, wealth, race, religion, gender, and occupation hold no influence. If you do your job, do it well, and still have a sense of humor - you will be given respect, regardless of what you may be in real life. If you do your job poorly, expect favortism for ANY reason, and have no sense of humor - you will not be. It is as simple as that. A raiding guild does not care if you are a woman, a doctor, a multi-millionaire, or a porn star. You earn your respect by your actions in game.

There are elements of truth in this article, which I will certainly concede. For one, guild leaders across the boards are not always good at HR. It happens. However, when we look upon it for what it is - a VIDEO GAME - it shouldn't be regarded to be as horrific as this article makes it sound. People play games for fun. They don't play them to make sure that everyone's sensibilities are not offended, and they don't usually go about trying to protect everyone from the insulting banter that often goes on within guilds. In real life, you cannot always just "leave" an insulting/offensive situation. However, in a video game, played for simple amusement - you have a choice. You can simply just log off. It is a game, and if you don't find it fun, or it is more troublesome than it is worth - you either find a way to make it fun, or you leave it. It's quite simple. I choose to sit online at nights for 6-7 hours at a time with 4 other women and 21 men. If someone seriously offends me or I am not feeling up to it, I can simply log out. Anyone - males and females alike - can do the same.

continued in next post

 

[Kuroe [deprecated]]

continued from previous post

There is also a darker side to some female gamers, one that I am fully aware that Ms. O'Reilly partakes in. Many women, perhaps who are unpopular, unattractive, unsuccessful or just plain bored in real life, finding themselves suddenly popular for their biological sex, are able to take advantage of the situation and use their femininity to gain in-game benefits. Sometimes men play female characters for this very reason. It is important to note that it is hardly the case with all female gamers, and sometimes only appears to be true when it is not. I have actually written an entire joke blog about it (worldofkuroe.blogspot.com). Unfortunately, for many people it is not at all a joke, but a reality. Ms. O'Reilly engaged in this sort of male player manipulation through one of our other applicants (who notably was not her boyfriend). As another female player and apparently a "confidant", she would talk proudly to me of how she could make this other applicant log in and out at will. I will not elaborate on her actions here, as it seems inappropriate, (although I might add a bit about this in my blog!), but I will say this: she was using him for her own cruel entertainment. While Ms. O'Reilly might complain about guilds that have "no-girl" policies, she unfortunately is a part of the problem. No guild wants drama, and tragically, that is precisely what she is selling. I regret to inform you that your "angel in the guild" is hardly an angel at all.

As for sexual harassment within video games (I will have to be careful how I word this, I suppose) - it happens occasionally, but more often than not most of these jokes are intended in good fun and humor. Is it sexual harassment when one guy in a guild calls another male a "fag"? Techincally, by real life work enviroment standards, yes. However, MMOs are a completely different community, contain completely different concepts of what is "mean", "harassing", or otherwise "inappropriate", and should not be regarded in terms of one's expectations for behavior within a community in the "real world." The average MMO player base is somewhere between 18-25 years old, largely male, and extremely competitive. For a comparison that a non-gamer might understand, it's like sticking a whole bunch of college football players in one large auditorium, tossing a few women in the room, and handing everyone a loudspeaker. MMOs give absolutely everyone a voice - by removing them. But the conversation, as you might imagine, is usually one of insulting/playful/competitive and occasionally cruel banter. The girls that find themselves thrown into this mixture have to make a conscious choice to either partake in the community, or leave it. It is *NOT* "unfair" - it is simply a community, and as with any other community or organization - if you don't fit in, you leave, or you tell people you don't like it and ask them to change, and anticipate that there is a chance they will not. If someone was asking Ms. O'Reilly if she was a "screamer", there is a good chance it was probably intended as a joke. If a male asks a male in the game "are you gay?", they don't actually expect an answer, nor want one. As a female you have to learn to either laugh at these jokes (as the males do), make a return joke (ex. "Oh yeah, my neighbors called the police once because they thought my boyfriend was murdering me"), ignore it, or, if it really offends you, you TELL that person: "Hey, I find that sort of question inappropriate, could you not ask it?" People are people, and don't always know what may or may not offend someone. Most "harmful" things spoken are in a sense of good humor, albeit a humor not everyone has a thick enough skin for. However, in general, when you ask nicely that people not treat you a certain way, even in a video game, more often than not they will comply. And if they don't, well - there is always /ignore, or the previously mentioned option of simply logging out. MMORPG is short for "Massive Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game." The idea is to partake a community outside of the "real life community." That is the game. If you do not enjoy the community, and thus the game, why play it?

As I said, you probably should have researched your subject a bit more carefully and interviewed more than one person for your article. Unfortunately your writing presents itself like an extensive poll when in reality it is only a case study of one female gamer, and a bad one at that. It is biased, uninventive, poorly researched, and tries to turn a player skill issue or perhaps a player base issue into a "women's right's" issue, which it is not. Ms. O'Reilly would do well to learn how to hit her "greater heal" button and move away from area effect damage, rather than doing interviews for ill-informed e-journalists.

- Azule, 70 draenei priest of Mal'ganis

 

[i2fenix [deprecated]]

To the author of the Article:

You based this entire article on lies and the bias point of view of Christine alone. I was an officer of the guild in mention and if you would like to see responses to this thread go here: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2518021164&sid=1

As for what I replied with for those who want the quick recap:

To the OP:

If you would like to discuss girls playing WoW with a pathological liar, then by all means contect phetia. Over 95% of that entire article is flooded with so much BS that it isnt even funny. In reality, phetia had about 2% to do with Exordium and that is that she filled our GM's head with lies and self praise of how wonderful she is. Only two people in the entire guild even wanted here there...Matt(her boyfriend and the GM) and Oscard, a no name player we were forced to pick up when we reformed the guild because she getting on matts nerves so bad that he was going to quit the game if we did not.

To the sexual harassment portion of the article, for all the other nerds out there who would like to pinch her "bottom" go here: http://www.myspace.com/christineoreilly

She makes herself look as if guys were hitting on her, but what really happened was she would make sexual innuendo's to many of us in the guild such as "I already told matt that I would cheat on him for fenix, Evilsteve, Korva, and Shawty." Those are the only names that i can recall at this moment, but there were other such references along the same lines as well.

I could pick the entire article apart piece by piece if you would like. Feel free to log into MG at anytime and shoot me a tell. Sadly, the worst part about all of this is how she brings matt down with her and makes him look like a complete tool.

ps: If you would like to sample other written works(lies) of christine you can head of to http://www.retributionguild.net/ which was the ONLY guild she applied to after Exordium broke up. You may have to ask them to reopen the forum as public, but im sure they would be much obliged.

 

[marievB [deprecated]]

This article just annoyed me on so many levels. I am a female and the gm of a big alliance guild. I've been gm for a long while and we're doing good at the moment. The one thing that bothers me here is that she seems to take all this crap from man. Grow a backbone! Tell people to treat you right. I'm not the only female in my guild and I make it very clear that you need to treat girls with respect.

That means no cursing in gchat (gasp!). I don't care what people do in whisper I just want gchat to be a friendly and clean enviroment. I'm not going into a hissy fit when people curse but I am going to make it clear to keep those kind of jokes in whisper. And all 90 people of my guild respect me for it. I think man don't mind being in a bit better behaviour if there are girls around and I think that's how it should be. You don't talk to your friends the same way if your girlfriend is there. I even had people say they thought it was stupid at first but later saw the good side of it, there is no arguments in gchat or people getting offended.

Of course it helps being a girl as a gm. I can call man on the fact that they are being too much ego. And people will most often share their personal problems with me because I'm a girl. I have a boyfriend in real life so I don't need any attention from other males. I stop them when they got too flirty. We have other girls in our guild with a little fanclub but that isn't my thing. Girls play games, get over it. We aren't worse then boys and we aren't better. We are just playing the game like everyone else.