192: Bushido and Beamsabers

Ollie Barder

New member
Mar 9, 2009
83
0
0
Bushido and Beamsabers

What do medieval Japanese warriors and giant fighting robots have in common? Probably a lot more than you think. Ollie Barder examines the influence of samurai on mecha, and how that influence has led to a particularly unique genre of videogames.

Permalink
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
20,364
0
0
Man, the article kinda made me want to dig out Dynasty Warriors Gundam...
 

Clemenstation

New member
Dec 9, 2008
414
0
0
Mastery over the controller... interesting. It's true that control schemes that aren't immediately intuitive make far more sense in the context of operating a giant robot than, say, a zombie-hunting special ops agent starring in a new (racist?) adventure.

I like the suggestion that mech games are deliberately inaccessible as a reflection of their subject matter. Because maybe, just maybe, giant robots are tougher to control than a human body.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
20,364
0
0
RAKtheUndead said:
In terms of actual military usefulness, mecha tend to lie on the side of "Cool But Inefficient". In order to keep them upright, you need masses of gyroscopes and a constantly adjusting computer system. In order to get them to move, you've got control mechanisms which would make even fighter pilots confused. And once they get knocked down, you're going to have one hell of a time getting them back up again.

Compare this to the more traditional powered exoskeleton, with examples starting from the Lensman series and Starship Troopers, and more common in Western video games. With negative feedback systems or neural links, using such a suit is commonly described as being no harder than moving your own body.

Perhaps your connection between samurai and mecha is apt in more way than one. Samurai became obsolete in the face of new weaponry, because of their firm maintenance of tradition. Mecha would immediately be obsoleted by already existing weapons, because of their restrictions. The Japanese have become people who no longer engage in war, but maintain an interest in their military past. The Americans and Europeans are people who still engage in war, and constantly think towards its future.
Lies and untruths :( I'm taking my ZGMF-X10A Freedom and you can't stop me!

BEAMSPAM AHOY
 

Syntax Error

New member
Sep 7, 2008
2,323
0
0
RAKtheUndead said:
In terms of actual military usefulness, mecha tend to lie on the side of "Cool But Inefficient". In order to keep them upright, you need masses of gyroscopes and a constantly adjusting computer system. In order to get them to move, you've got control mechanisms which would make even fighter pilots confused. And once they get knocked down, you're going to have one hell of a time getting them back up again.

Compare this to the more traditional powered exoskeleton, with examples starting from the Lensman series and Starship Troopers, and more common in Western video games. With negative feedback systems or neural links, using such a suit is commonly described as being no harder than moving your own body.

Perhaps your connection between samurai and mecha is apt in more way than one. Samurai became obsolete in the face of new weaponry, because of their firm maintenance of tradition. Mecha would immediately be obsoleted by already existing weapons, because of their restrictions. The Japanese have become people who no longer engage in war, but maintain an interest in their military past. The Americans and Europeans are people who still engage in war, and constantly think towards its future.
Wow, I never really looked at it that way. I'm thinking that in the foreseeable future, Exoskeletons will be field tested first and it will most probably be used quite a lot. Robots (I mean robots like the ones in anime and sci-fi flicks) fighting wars for its masters seem very much far off.

As for the article, isn't the whole point of competitive gaming built around this "Mastery of the Controller" concept? It's more prevalent in "twitch" games (fighting games, shmups and racing games come to mind). What I'm trying to say is that, this concept is pretty much in place ever since the first Pong cabinet came out. It applies to all games across all genres.
 

Mstrswrd

Always playing Touhou. Always.
Mar 2, 2008
1,724
0
0
I'm actually just here to thank you for the name of the game with the huge controller, "Steel Batallion." Now I can start looking for that game on Ebay again.
 

Brotherofwill

New member
Jan 25, 2009
2,566
0
0
If anyone wants to play a real game about the code of Bushido in a more traditional sense they should try Bushido Blade.

It's a really awesome sword fighting game that has a quick kill system, making every battle potentially end by a single strike. It actually has rules of Bushido, like you shouldn't attack your opponent before he is ready (you actually can) and you should strike their dead bodies. I still play that game today, even tough the controls feel slightly awkward. Sadly noone ever developed this system in a meaningful way...

I never could get into Mecha games
 

Kiutu

New member
Sep 27, 2008
1,787
0
0
CantFaketheFunk said:
Man, the article kinda made me want to dig out Dynasty Warriors Gundam...
Which they did not even mention considering the picture they used.
 

KDR_11k

New member
Feb 10, 2009
1,013
0
0
For a great control example I'll point at Chou Soujuu Mecha MG (Super Control Robot MG) by Sandlot (published by Nintendo on the DS), the same company that made a Tetsujin 28-go videogame, Robot Alchemic Drive (which had the same remote operated robot premise) and of course the Earth Defense Force games. In CSMMG you have the basic dpad controls for movement but most of the controls are on the touchscreen. These aren't just a fire button or radar operation, these are intricate mechanisms you have to interact with to get your mech to do what you want it to do. E.g. one mech has a transformable vehicle form that has a giant doom laser on top. To activate it you have to flip a row of switches (I think the Death Star firing sequence in Star Wars included a scene like that, as did a scene where He-Man prepares to fire a planetbuster missile in Masters Of The Universe). The steam-powered locomotive mech actually requires you to shovel coal into the burner and then turn the steam valves to allocate power to the steam-powered nunchakus or the cannon. On the nuke missile launcher when you activate the launch sequence you're prompted to enter a 4 digit code before it will reveal the big red "fire!" button. The pistolero mech has you reloading the revolvers by pulling cartridges from the ammo pile into the chambers of the gun. Maneuvering an electric train mech in train mode uses sliders, making it much harder to use for racing than a car mech that lets you use the throttle and brakes with the dpad so you can keep the pen on the steering wheel. The game is awesome and the cumbersome controls on some mechs actually balance them out because they're really damn powerful when fully operational (fighting against the locomotive makes it seem like an ubermech but actually operating the thing is so hard you'll probably not get to use its full power).

As for pointing at VOTOMS as another vector of "samurai infection", I'm not sure about that. While soldiers are treated as expendable it's more like the Empire of Man from Warhammer 40k, simply wasting them because it can be afforded. The first battle of Pailsen Files has about 200000 men (all in mechs) sent to certain death on a D-Day style beach landing while the final battle sees a deployment of 120 million men just from the Gilgamesh army. The actual characters aren't sacrificing their bodies, they try to stay alive at all costs and a mech is used as one of the possible weapons to get that done (and if you can't find an empty one just shoot the sensors out of one so the pilot has to look out of the hatch, then shoot him in the face). If you see the pilot as the soul and the mech as the body, sure, then it applies, even heroes get their mechs wrecked constantly and usually they fight to make the enemy's mech fall apart faster than their own, finally bailing out when the mech is destroyed but a lot of the story in the OVAs is about how having plot armor doesn't help when you've got an objective to accomplish, it only lets you come out alive but usually with everyone else dead*, the mission failed and you getting hated for using your comrades as a meatshield.

*=What can I say? I've seen it happen in Starlancer, usually the only ones to get out of a battle alive were the ones with plot shields or whose death would have made the mission fail, everyone else was dead.
 

DirkGently

New member
Oct 22, 2008
966
0
0
I've got to say, aren't pretty much all games about mastering the controller, and isn't petty much every well balanced multiplayer game work as a cipher for skill?

I've never really thought of the whole bushido thing. I always just thought of mechs as giant robots blowing the hell of it each other. Utterly inefficient and utterly ridiculous, but totally fucking awesome. Interesting food for thought even if I've never thought of my Timber Wolf as an 'expendable body.
 

KSarty

Senior Member
Aug 5, 2008
995
0
21
Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2 comes out the 24th in the US. I cant wait to use the Sazabi and the Nu Gundam. My favorite mecha game for this gen is Armored Core For Answer, it really is amazing how in depth the combat goes once you really get into it. However I still think one of the best mecha games ever was Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise from the Ashes (I know, long name) for the Dreamcast. The control scheme worked extremely well I think and I really liked the first person view from the cockpit.
 

ThePlasmatizer

New member
Sep 2, 2008
1,261
0
0
I believe the reason why Mecha games over here aren't as popular is because gamers are more discerning. The latest releases I've seen - and feel free to correct me - in Mecha games are terrible. Dynasty Warriors Gundam is one example.

It seems like the Japanese market is content to buy the games as long as Gundam/Final Fantasy/Dynasty Warriors is on the front of the box.

I also have to say your comment on the Armored Core series being accessible to novices was way off the mark.

If you pick up Armored Core: For Answer the first thing you will notice is how inaccesible the game is. The first thing that highlights this is the fact the tutorial only explains you the basics of movement and combat, and that's all you get.

With a basic FPS this would be fine but the fact that Armored Core is a difficult game and customization with multitudes of components and tuners and various sliders, it's difficult to understand and even if you read the manual and look up faqs you're still in the middle of the freaking desert.

Mecha games will not succeed in the west unless we get something that is worth playing.

The easiest mainstream debut imo would be a Mecha game that plays like a fps with destructible environments, various energy weapons and miniature cityscape battlefields.
 

Kiutu

New member
Sep 27, 2008
1,787
0
0
DirkGently said:
I've got to say, aren't pretty much all games about mastering the controller, and isn't petty much every well balanced multiplayer game work as a cipher for skill?

I've never really thought of the whole bushido thing. I always just thought of mechs as giant robots blowing the hell of it each other. Utterly inefficient and utterly ridiculous, but totally fucking awesome. Interesting food for thought even if I've never thought of my Timber Wolf as an 'expendable body.
Not really. My brother is currently playing Spectral Force 3 and it is not a matter of controller skill, it is turn based, and all turn based do not need skill with the controller as it lets you stop, look at the manual and ta da. Also ever heard of 'button mashing'? The epidomy of skilless controller use. As for multiplayer, sometimes it is merely complaining, sometimes things are cheap and overpowered.
 

Kiutu

New member
Sep 27, 2008
1,787
0
0
DWG is not a horrible game, best? No, but Dynasty Warrior games are biased against. Also, Armored Core is successful, Mech Assault did very well, and Chromehounds is also an amazing game. Just because they are not so widespread like shooters (Halo, CoD, GoW) does not mean they are unsuccessful, bad, or failures. It just means they are less mainstream which is a good thing in my eyes, as it attracts more dedicated and skilled gamers opposed to the meathead CoD4 and Halo 3 fans.
 

DirkGently

New member
Oct 22, 2008
966
0
0
Kiutu said:
DirkGently said:
I've got to say, aren't pretty much all games about mastering the controller, and isn't petty much every well balanced multiplayer game work as a cipher for skill?

I've never really thought of the whole bushido thing. I always just thought of mechs as giant robots blowing the hell of it each other. Utterly inefficient and utterly ridiculous, but totally fucking awesome. Interesting food for thought even if I've never thought of my Timber Wolf as an 'expendable body.
Not really. My brother is currently playing Spectral Force 3 and it is not a matter of controller skill, it is turn based, and all turn based do not need skill with the controller as it lets you stop, look at the manual and ta da. Also ever heard of 'button mashing'? The epidomy of skilless controller use. As for multiplayer, sometimes it is merely complaining, sometimes things are cheap and overpowered.
I meant to say "competitive". COD4, TF2, Counterstrike, it's all mastery of the controller. Likewise, I said "balanced" games, thus meaning a minimum of cheap tricks or means of countering them.

And button-mashing != victory.
 

cainx10a

New member
May 17, 2008
2,191
0
0
CantFaketheFunk said:
RAKtheUndead said:
In terms of actual military usefulness, mecha tend to lie on the side of "Cool But Inefficient". In order to keep them upright, you need masses of gyroscopes and a constantly adjusting computer system. In order to get them to move, you've got control mechanisms which would make even fighter pilots confused. And once they get knocked down, you're going to have one hell of a time getting them back up again.

Compare this to the more traditional powered exoskeleton, with examples starting from the Lensman series and Starship Troopers, and more common in Western video games. With negative feedback systems or neural links, using such a suit is commonly described as being no harder than moving your own body.

Perhaps your connection between samurai and mecha is apt in more way than one. Samurai became obsolete in the face of new weaponry, because of their firm maintenance of tradition. Mecha would immediately be obsoleted by already existing weapons, because of their restrictions. The Japanese have become people who no longer engage in war, but maintain an interest in their military past. The Americans and Europeans are people who still engage in war, and constantly think towards its future.
Lies and untruths :( I'm taking my ZGMF-X10A Freedom and you can't stop me!

BEAMSPAM AHOY
GN Shield activated! Trans-Arm Raiser AHOY!!!

Then again, in most Gundam/Mech series, the Aces and Heroes always seem to be using their mechs as Exoskeletons.
 

John Funk

U.N. Owen Was Him?
Dec 20, 2005
20,364
0
0
KSarty said:
Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2 comes out the 24th in the US. I cant wait to use the Sazabi and the Nu Gundam. My favorite mecha game for this gen is Armored Core For Answer, it really is amazing how in depth the combat goes once you really get into it. However I still think one of the best mecha games ever was Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story 0079: Rise from the Ashes (I know, long name) for the Dreamcast. The control scheme worked extremely well I think and I really liked the first person view from the cockpit.
Mmmm, Sazabi.

Mmmmmm, v Gundam.