192: Bushido and Beamsabers

[TsunamiWombat]

I think people love mecha games because it lets you pretend like your something larger then life. In a mecha game you can battle to the destruction of your mech, then eject and live to fight another day. Also, with mecha combat the battle can seem more intense and longer with a larger focus on skill and training not impersonal things like luck and strategy. In a mech you wont die from a single bullet to the head. Your skill in piloting the mech and ability to properly gear your mech for the fight will decide who wins. It a romanticizing of war. You can have all the glory of combat without the risk of death. That's just not a Japanese thing that a human nature thing.

I'll never forget in one of the battletech books "ideal war" a couple of mech pilots get captured and one of the pilots has a nervous break down because he's no longer safe "in his metal", and can now face death and war upfront and personal. That's what fantasying about being a mech pilot gives us. We can be a war hero but the chance of death in combat lowers incredible. To the point where it's no longer a factor in worrying about our survival.

apparently you never watched Gundam, his nickname is 'Kill Em All Tomino' for a god damn reason. Unless he's doing a comedy in which his main character will end up in a Harem... Seriously... Don't look at me Like that!

Also props to Kabuto Kouji for headshotting Duke Gorgon through his tiger head and human head in one shot.

in most mecha games they also treat loss as death. save a select few.
Gundam Deaths from 0079-87

You gotta love Char's epic headshot at 4:25. Death in Gundam is very very common, almost every loss = death. My favorite though is the death of Lala Sune, and the anguish both men feel when it happens, which turns them both into true enemies. Before it had been a matter of being on opposite sides, after Sune dies it becomes personal. The extent of which is evident in their last battle when Gundam is finally destroyed but they keep fighting hand to hand even as the ship around them demolishes.

...[/youtube]

That sort of spirit, that 'nekketsu' is the real attraction for alot of giant robot shows.

 

[Isaac Dodgson]

WOOOHOOO Gundam and Armored Core, SCORE...

...oddly enough the article perked my interest in Steel Battalion

EDIT: Oh...and Fin Funnels = Win

 

[Axehilt]

I agree with Anoctris that the article probably goes a little overboard on Samurai/Mecha romanticism (which I say, even though I myself am a mecha fan )

Glorifying needlessly complicated control schemes is the true fault of the article though. Which is odd because Virtual On is mentioned without identifying why that series was so damn popular: it was simple to learn, but had deep gameplay. That's the holy grail of gaming!

Also Armored Core isn't quite what I'd consider "welcoming" to new players. Even as someone who wants to enjoy mecha games, I just couldn't get into the series for its awkward controls.

If more mecha games had Virtual On's combination of accessibility and depth, they'd be a lot more popular with the Western audience. Maybe not as popular as more realistic games (because western culture still scoffs at the inherent inefficiencies of giant, walking tanks) but quite a bit more popular than they currently are.

 

[Meta Like That]

However it's the game's job to actually make the concept interesting to the player and to allow him to figure out what he's dealing with before being required to make life or death choices... The worst scenario is when a game forces the player to make important decisions without experience that have long term consequences and could end up screwing him over permanently because he entered the campaign as a beginner instead of a veteran.

What mech games have you played that did this?

As for the concept of a mech itself, it's somewhere between a way of making individual characters have a tangible influence on a war (no single soldier had the impact of a single Gundam) and getting armored vehicles that actually look interesting when fighting (a lot of the things that happen in tank combat are not apparent to the casual observer, between the efficiency of the crew at loadiong the gun and the use of cover, stronger and weaker armor areas, etc). Often important characters in a mech war get super powerful unique mechs that can win a battle practically alone (ugh Code Geass, no strategy survives a Deus Ex Machina), you'll have a hard time selling to your audience that a real battle was won by a single soldier or armored vehicle. Maybe if your character was someone like Superman or Captain America but superheroes pretty much went out of style and while super-powered mechs or powerarmors may be possible in the future a bullet proof human isn't as believable.

Pretty much. It gets romanticized for dramatization, which makes the dawning of the reality of it during your youth a bit of a blow: Every soldier is expendable.

 

[TsunamiWombat]

Roy Fokker lives? Somehow that decreases his awesomeness though. Roys most awesome moment was when he took shrapnel, got out, walked away, hung out with his girlfreind, then died over salad. They probably had Sex first knowing Roy.

 

[teknoarcanist]

How could you talk about mech game control schemes and not mention Robot Alchemic Drive for the PS2? That was one of the most unique takes on the genre I've ever seen. Players controlled a human character who could jump between rooftops with rocketboot type things, and then pressed select to switch to control of a large mech that size of said buildings. You had to balance finding an appropriate viewpoint with trying not to place yourself in danger.
The actual mech control itself was a lot more manual and 1:1 than what you usually see as well; the shoulder buttons were used in this complex lift-foot, move-forward, set-down type deal, so that even simple walking felt like a skilled accomplishment.
It gave the game overall a very tactical, heavy feel, rather than the typical side-strafing boost-jumping crap you get in a gundamn game.
Damn, I want to go play that now.

 

[Ollie Barder]

I've been really enjoying people's responses to the article and it's nice to see that most people understood it as well. If you're at all into mecha gaming I also write a column over at GameSetWatch called Roboto-chan [http://www.gamesetwatch.com/column_robotochan/], as well as maintaining a rather mecha centric YouTube channel [http://www.youtube.com/user/Cacophanus] featuring gameplay videos of lesser known mecha games (such as Gigantic Drive [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQY9HLD-Q90&fmt=18], as one person mentioned).

I agree with Anoctris that the article probably goes a little overboard on Samurai/Mecha romanticism (which I say, even though I myself am a mecha fan )

Glorifying needlessly complicated control schemes is the true fault of the article though. Which is odd because Virtual On is mentioned without identifying why that series was so damn popular: it was simple to learn, but had deep gameplay. That's the holy grail of gaming!

Also Armored Core isn't quite what I'd consider "welcoming" to new players. Even as someone who wants to enjoy mecha games, I just couldn't get into the series for its awkward controls.

If more mecha games had Virtual On's combination of accessibility and depth, they'd be a lot more popular with the Western audience. Maybe not as popular as more realistic games (because western culture still scoffs at the inherent inefficiencies of giant, walking tanks) but quite a bit more popular than they currently are.

Virtual On [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgxXcz2p1TA&fmt=18] wasn't accessible though (outside of Japan at least). It had a control scheme that looked like a tank but played very differently [http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/03/column_robotochan_virtuak_onta.php]. It wasn't like Cyber Sled, where you were effectively controlling a futuristic tank, but instead based around fixed vectored dashes. The control scheme doesn't make that visually implicit at all.

The article isn't about glorifying complexity either but that affording the player a variety of input increases the scope of what they can achieve in-game. The problem with this approach is that it requires a level of cognitive determination on the part of the player and these days most people can't be bothered to learn anything new/different in terms of functional scope.

 

[Ollie Barder]

I'm probably the biggest mecha nut on these forums, and it pleases me to no end to know the Virtual On cast are going to be in SRW K.

along with Dangaioh, Kotetsushin Jeeg, Gaiking: Legend of Daiku-Mariyu, Godannar (both seasons), GunXSword, Overman King Gainer, Mazinger Z, Fafner of the Azure, ZOIDS GENESIS!!! (For the uninformed, Tomy and Banpresto are rival companies, seeing a Tomy production in a Banpresto game opens up a WHOLE new can of worms)

And then everything from Gundams Cosmic Era NOT named Astray.

So ya know, every Gundam series included is made of fail. God even Judgment had G Gundam to offset!

As a bonus, the three PVs for SRW K, released 20th of March.

I've got SRW K on pre-order but it doesn't look like much of a step up on W. I'm still loving SRW Z though, some very interesting strategy mechanics at work there.

Here are some SRW videos I've done over the years:

 

[Ollie Barder]

My PS2 died in between SRWZ... Seriously total crap!

Anyway I got K pre-ordered to. Have you played the Alpha Gaiden Translation yet? and the SRWJ one is almost done. or well it IS done there just editing it.

I'm fine with playing SRW in Japanese, so I'm not overly fussed about translations. I think it's a good thing though obviously, as it means more people can get to play the games.

I need to capture the final boss on XO though, that was just silly hard!

 

[Ollie Barder]

Oh I have no trouble playing the games, it's the plots that are nice. I know Tyria (who's translating Alpha) wants to do the PS2 games, he just needs to convince Gid to do the hacking.

now games that NEED translation? Gihren's Ambition. crazy difficult even if I knew what was going on..

I just hope the plans for the PS3 one go through, why? Region-free. Love to not have to run around emulating/getting chips.

I have a lot of the Gihren's Greed games and they're very interesting. The language barrier isn't for the faint of heart though (thankfully I'm okay on that front). It does also help a lot if you're familiar with the early UC narrative, as a lot of the narrative paths you can take are based around that. I think that's an interesting mechanic to have though; where knowledge of the game's narrative subject matter actually plays functional dividends.

 

[Ollie Barder]

Problem with that is,it only lasts so far, if you're playing Zeon (which I don't, pure Federation muscle here) it only helps you up to the end of 0079, then your crap outta luck to many players have to much chaos and have Garma pop up at the last second to kick their asses.

http://z8.invisionfree.com/Gihrens_Ambition/index.php?act=idx the Let's Play archive for the new Threat of Axis V game, everyone doing the LP's can be found their.

Also have you got the new one (Threat of Axis V) Tem Ray army,Playable Job John! (Who nobody in White base recognizes, haha in-joke)

Not so much on the earlier games, as knowledge on the Zeta arc was also very helpful. Yeah, I have the new PSP game but even though I've utterly thrashed Macross Ace Frontier [http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/10/column_robotochan_macross_pion.php], that's still getting most of love at the moment (PSPwise at least).

Talking of SRW and Gihren's Greed, have you played the ACE games at all? They're developed by From Software and are very good indeed.

 

[Ollie Barder]

Late reply but YES of course I have played the A.C.E. games, From Software and Banpresto produce a game series you have to play it! By the way, have you seen Xabungle? Tomino's TRUE great show. a wild west 'after the end' setting with comedy and giant robots.

Yeah, I saw all of Xabungle whilst I was living in Japan. It's very good but not my favourite Tomino show. That would be Dunbine [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbine] and the Wings of Rean [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_of_Rean].