177: The Vintage Game Preservation Society

[Sylocat]

I've never understood why any game company would continue to hold copyright on a game they're not distributing anymore. You can't make money off something you're not selling, so how can you lose a profit you're not making? To quote Cary Grant in Charade: "A third of nothing is nothing."

Holding copyright on abandonware is counterproductive for a veritable rainbow of reasons. First off, as mentioned, it doesn't benefit the company in any way, and makes them look selfish, greedy and irrational in the process. But more than that, free online distribution of their vintage game libraries would make an excellent word-of-mouth marketing strategy. Every marketer knows that giving out free samples is one of the most sure-fire ways to stir up interest in your product (hence the logic of game demos), and this presents an even better method for doing that. It's the ultimate free sample strategy: It stirs up interest in your company, makes you look generous, and doesn't cut into your profits at all.

Now, I'm not saying the game companies should set up free downloads for all their abandoned games on their own company websites. That would hurt them, since gamers would think "Well, why don't I just wait for the free version to come out in a couple of years?" among any gamer who has a PC capable of running the ROM, or who will have a PC capable of running it by the time the ROM comes out. Just don't stamp down on sites like Home of the Underdogs.

 

[Playbahnosh]

Now, I'm not saying the game companies should set up free downloads for all their abandoned games on their own company websites. That would hurt them, since gamers would think "Well, why don't I just wait for the free version to come out in a couple of years?" among any gamer who has a PC capable of running the ROM, or who will have a PC capable of running it by the time the ROM comes out. Just don't stamp down on sites like Home of the Underdogs.

I beg to differ. People can pretty much download any game they want when it is released, even before that. It's not a question of waiting for a free download anymore. For a few years now, it's more like a moral choice, if you want to buy a game or just want to play it. Every major title is available on torrent trackers and warez sites at the time of release, most of them even before it is actually sold.

I had the "pleasure" to grow up behind the iron curtain, so when I was a kid, video games were almost non-existent to us. When you guys were playing SNES, Sega and PC games, all the entertainment we got was cheap, poor copies of game consoles with counterfeit cartridges. I was very lucky to have a second-hand Commodore +4 with a cassette drive, because we could trade the tapes with games on them, which we copied with my old stereo. Piracy was pretty much common then, and we didn't feel guilty about it, because there were simply no games around to buy, they were not sold anywhere. Copying and sharing games with friends was the only way to get new entertainment. Either that, or get out to the flea market and buy poor-quality countefeit cartridges and consoles, which were but a bleak shadow of the real ones.

I remember playing a poor Mario clone, and thought that was awesome. Imagine how shocked and flabbergasted I was when I saw the real deal a few years later. So this is why it's so important to me to preserve these old games, because they are awesome, and these are the childhood memories I couldn't really have...

 

[Sylocat]

I beg to differ. People can pretty much download any game they want when it is released, even before that. It's not a question of waiting for a free download anymore. For a few years now, it's more like a moral choice, if you want to buy a game or just want to play it. Every major title is available on torrent trackers and warez sites at the time of release, most of them even before it is actually sold.

I had the "pleasure" to grow up behind the iron curtain, so when I was a kid, video games were almost non-existent to us. When you guys were playing SNES, Sega and PC games, all the entertainment we got was cheap, poor copies of game consoles with counterfeit cartridges. I was very lucky to have a second-hand Commodore +4 with a cassette drive, because we could trade the tapes with games on them, which we copied with my old stereo. Piracy was pretty much common then, and we didn't feel guilty about it, because there were simply no games around to buy, they were not sold anywhere. Copying and sharing games with friends was the only way to get new entertainment. Either that, or get out to the flea market and buy poor-quality countefeit cartridges and consoles, which were but a bleak shadow of the real ones.

I remember playing a poor Mario clone, and thought that was awesome. Imagine how shocked and flabbergasted I was when I saw the real deal a few years later. So this is why it's so important to me to preserve these old games, because they are awesome, and these are the childhood memories I couldn't really have...

Ouch, that must suck.

But my point was, you'd be surprised where people draw the line at being willing to pirate. Yes, you CAN download pretty much any game nowadays (if you have a computer that can run it), but the whole "moral choice" thing really does affect some people, even when the temptation is there. Setting up a "free downloads of our abandonware" section on the site, in THEORY shouldn't affect people's mindset, but you'd be surprised how much it would. It doesn't make sense, but it's the way the human brain works (or doesn't work).

 

[Lvl 64 Klutz]

I'm still waiting for 7th Guest and 11th Hour to pop up on some abandonware site, or GOG, or maybe even Steam. I miss those games, particularly the latter.

 

[Playbahnosh]

But my point was, you'd be surprised where people draw the line at being willing to pirate. Yes, you CAN download pretty much any game nowadays (if you have a computer that can run it), but the whole "moral choice" thing really does affect some people, even when the temptation is there. Setting up a "free downloads of our abandonware" section on the site, in THEORY shouldn't affect people's mindset, but you'd be surprised how much it would. It doesn't make sense, but it's the way the human brain works (or doesn't work).

True. At least true for your area anyway. I see you are from the US, so two different parts of the world are communicating here, and it shows. I see your point, I've been reading stuff about this, and I know the western standing on these issues. But people from Central or Eastern Europe are of a different mindset, mainly because of our history. I'm not making excuses here, this was always an issue when talking about stuff like this.

Here, it's not a question of drawing the line at being willing to pirate. More like drawing the line at willing NOT to pirate. It IS a moral choice, just the exact opposite of what you are used to. You may say this is wrong, I say this is normal. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate on piracy, but these things are connected. I don't say it's okay to pirate, I just say it was, and is pretty common here, much more common than actually buying a game, the mindset is different. And it's different for abandonware also. See, abandonware is a way to experience games we only heard of back then, but never got to play when they were released, or just some bleak remake. Imagine playing the real Mario, Sonic, System Shock or Fallout for the first time, many many years after their peak, just because you didn't have the chance to get them while they were popular. Most of these games won't even run on modern computers. I only got around to play Fallout 1 two months ago, when I found a copy on Vatera (the hungarian eBay). I'm not alone with this, there are many people from around here and all over the world, who didn't have the chance to see these games, and now they can, all thanks to the abandonware scene.

 

[Sylocat]

Sylo: They don't distribute because that implies some measure of support, even if it's just rebuffing all the folks who don't read the "Will not work on Windows Vista" warnings it takes up some of their budgeted support staff time. They don't just ditch it because IP is valuable, look at all the retro games coming out for the Virtual Console, for example.

I didn't mean THEY should distribute it. Check my post, I just meant they shouldn't crack down on places like HotU distributing it, at least not until they want to start selling it again via places like the virtual console. Keep in mind, just a few years ago nobody knew things like the virtual console would ever take off. And there are several games out there that might never make it onto the virtual console at all (Remember how long Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars took to make it up there? And it was one of the most popular games in the franchise!).

But my point was, you'd be surprised where people draw the line at being willing to pirate. Yes, you CAN download pretty much any game nowadays (if you have a computer that can run it), but the whole "moral choice" thing really does affect some people, even when the temptation is there. Setting up a "free downloads of our abandonware" section on the site, in THEORY shouldn't affect people's mindset, but you'd be surprised how much it would. It doesn't make sense, but it's the way the human brain works (or doesn't work).

True. At least true for your area anyway. I see you are from the US, so two different parts of the world are communicating here, and it shows. I see your point, I've been reading stuff about this, and I know the western standing on these issues. But people from Central or Eastern Europe are of a different mindset, mainly because of our history. I'm not making excuses here, this was always an issue when talking about stuff like this.

Here, it's not a question of drawing the line at being willing to pirate. More like drawing the line at willing NOT to pirate. It IS a moral choice, just the exact opposite of what you are used to. You may say this is wrong, I say this is normal. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate on piracy, but these things are connected. I don't say it's okay to pirate, I just say it was, and is pretty common here, much more common than actually buying a game, the mindset is different. And it's different for abandonware also. See, abandonware is a way to experience games we only heard of back then, but never got to play when they were released, or just some bleak remake. Imagine playing the real Mario, Sonic, System Shock or Fallout for the first time, many many years after their peak, just because you didn't have the chance to get them while they were popular. Most of these games won't even run on modern computers. I only got around to play Fallout 1 two months ago, when I found a copy on Vatera (the hungarian eBay). I'm not alone with this, there are many people from around here and all over the world, who didn't have the chance to see these games, and now they can, all thanks to the abandonware scene.

I'm not sure where the problem is between our viewpoints, since I can't see anywhere I disagree. I just came out in favor of people being able to get abandonware for free.

 

[LesIsMore]

Imagine playing the real Mario, Sonic, System Shock or Fallout for the first time, many many years after their peak, just because you didn't have the chance to get them while they were popular. Most of these games won't even run on modern computers. I only got around to play Fallout 1 two months ago, when I found a copy on Vatera (the hungarian eBay). I'm not alone with this, there are many people from around here and all over the world, who didn't have the chance to see these games, and now they can, all thanks to the abandonware scene.

Abandonia members may be familiar with this, but if Fallout's something you're looking for this site popped up while I was doing my research. Full list of Fallout and Unreal games here, plus Giants: Citizen Kabuto, which while being one of the buggiest games I've ever played had quite an interesting charm to it. So if people are uncomfortable with piracy, here's something to show you can get older games at a price.

The post on Abandonia also says it well, with a heading "Someone finally gets it": http://www.abandonia.com/en/node/24255.

 

[Playbahnosh]

@LesIsMore

Yes, I'm familiar with GOG, (being said that I'm an Abandonia member and all) and been eyeing some titles myself. Yes, Giants: Citizen Kabuto is one of my favorites. I just love the Mercs dialogues.

But GOG seems to be a more commercial effort, than preservation. Just saw the news section, and I don't know how UT2004, FlatOut or even Unreal 2 could be "old" compared to Dungeon Keeper or Dynablaster for example. It seems they are focusing on the more popular titles from not-so-long-ago that has more selling power, but then again I could be mistaken...

 

[zoozilla]

@LesIsMore

Yes, I'm familiar with GOG, (being said that I'm an Abandonia member and all) and been eyeing some titles myself. Yes, Giants: Citizen Kabuto is one of my favorites. I just love the Mercs dialogues.

But GOG seems to be a more commercial effort, than preservation. Just saw the news section, and I don't know how UT2004, FlatOut or even Unreal 2 could be "old" compared to Dungeon Keeper or Dynablaster for example. It seems they are focusing on the more popular titles from not-so-long-ago that has more selling power, but then again I could be mistaken...

I think it's more to do with the publishers involved. So far, I think they've got Epic, Strategy First, Interplay, and Codemasters (I might be missing one).

Once you put up all of their old, "classic" games for sale, there's not much choice but to sell some of their newer offerings.

Now, if they got the support of LucasArts, for example, then they'd have a bunch of great older titles to release and probably wouldn't bother with newer games.

Plus, they're only $10 at the most; I don't know if "selling power" means as much with such a low price point. I mean, FlatOut is only $6.

 

[LesIsMore]

@LesIsMore
But GOG seems to be a more commercial effort, than preservation. Just saw the news section, and I don't know how UT2004, FlatOut or even Unreal 2 could be "old" compared to Dungeon Keeper or Dynablaster for example. It seems they are focusing on the more popular titles from not-so-long-ago that has more selling power, but then again I could be mistaken...

Not really trying to compare GOG to abandonware, just bringing up another way people can play "Fallout" if they choose - a game locked in eternal struggle with "Baldur's Gate" for my title of personal best RPG ever.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Thievery, stealing, and piracy.

I'm shocked and apalled that the Escapist would publish an article that so celebrates pirates.

Thievery, no. Stealing, no. Piracy, Yes.

Legal, yes.

Please don't muddle words here, copyright piracy and theft are not the same thing. I hate that I have to literally state this, but when I legally or illegaly copy a file, the original file remains in place and in tact. My hard drive does not gain weight or matter. All I am doing is reconfiguring my already purchased ones and zeros in a manner which matches somebody elses ones and zeros.

Nobody is literally stealing anything. It is a copyright infringement issue, plain and simple so lets not get hysterical and mischaractarize file copying as thievery.

 

[OuroborosChoked]

Thievery, stealing, and piracy.

I'm shocked and apalled that the Escapist would publish an article that so celebrates pirates.

Thievery, no. Stealing, no. Piracy, Yes.

Legal, yes.

Please don't muddle words here, copyright piracy and theft are not the same thing. I hate that I have to literally state this, but when I legally or illegaly copy a file, the original file remains in place and in tact. My hard drive does not gain weight or matter. All I am doing is reconfiguring my already purchased ones and zeros in a manner which matches somebody elses ones and zeros.

Nobody is literally stealing anything. It is a copyright infringement issue, plain and simple so lets not get hysterical and mischaractarize file copying as thievery.

Please tell that to Congress. And the Supreme Court.

Bring Crosley Bendix [http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=16] along with you.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Please tell that to Congress. And the Supreme Court.

I don't think those people know how computers works, sort of a lost cause.

 

[Liverandbacon]

While it may be illegal, my personal stance on abandonware is this:
I have 3 steps to getting an old game
1. Look for it for sale online (GOG.com, Steam, etc.) And by for sale, I mean at a price that isn't a joke. $60 for a used game from '99, I don't think so. Anyway, used sales don't benefit the publisher or developer, so meh.
2. If I can't find it legally, download off of an abandonware site (except for ESA no-gos of course)
3. If it becomes legally sold again, I'll either delete it from my hard drive and deal with the loss, or delete it then buy it legally. I did this with Freespace 2 when it was released on GOG.com

By the way, I love GOG.com, because I don't feel like I need to worry about what will happen if they go under, due to the lack of DRM on the titles they put out.

 

[OuroborosChoked]

Please tell that to Congress. And the Supreme Court.

I don't think those people know how computers works, sort of a lost cause.

They don't know... exactly my point! Teach them!

 

[LesIsMore]

Please tell that to Congress. And the Supreme Court.

I don't think those people know how computers works, sort of a lost cause.

Look no further to see how the government understands the Internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_of_tubes.

 

[Miral]

and don't care about Mine Bombers, Shadow Warrior or Commander Keen.

Actually, you can get most of Commander Keen on Steam. For some weird (apparently legal) reason they're missing two of the episodes though.

 

[LesIsMore]

A related update:

Home Of The Underdogs Goes Under

Home of the Underdogs, the most widely-recognized and enduring abandonware site on the net, is no more.

The bad news came in the form of a Flash of Steel [http://twitter.com/] notes, the site's demise has been a long time coming; it was, perhaps a touch ironically, abandoned by Achavanuntakul, who last updated in 2006. But the game information, the reviews and the commentary all remained intact and it stayed a popular destination for people seeking out old and obscure games from days long ago.

Unlike conventional gaming sites, Home of the Underdogs was as much as museum as it was a download site, focusing exclusively on older and little-known games. Entries on the site typically included detailed information about the developer and publisher, system requirements, reviews, ratings and more, while various "how-tos" and links to old game manuals and related sites were also featured.

The site drew significant hits in its heyday, claiming more than 50,000 unique visitors daily and an average of over eight million page views per month. And although it was rescued from oblivion after briefly going offline in September 2008, that seems unlikely to happen again. Other abandonware sites will help ensure that the great history preserved by HotU remains accessible, but it's nonetheless a sad loss for gamers with a love for the classics.


Permalink

Moment of silence all around.

 

[surg3n]

Abandonware? - isn't Monkey Island 1 and 2 available on the iPhone store? - loaded question because I bought it a few months ago
Prince of Persia is on the app store as well, I haven't bought that - I couldn't finish it in the 90's, I doubt I can finish it now.

These games are not abandonware.

Anyway, why mess around with clunky PC games, when there's a whole fricken universe of emulation. Really, if I want to play prince of persia, I'd load up STeem the Atari ST emulator and play it on that. If I want to play a point and click adventure, I'd use WinUAE the Amiga emulator, all the good click adventures were released on the Amiga. Then there's the SNES and Genesis for all those 2D classics, and MAME for all those arcade classics. All free, and more justified than abandonware, because none of those games are available commercially and the game in it's raw form is protected somewhat. I mean, abandonware means the original game is hacked, and presented in it's original form pretty much.

The truth is though that retro gaming is often disapointing - games never look quite as good as they did 20 years ago, old fashioned TV's spared us from a lot of horrors. If you look at a Bitmap Bros game for instance, in the 90's it was hard to believe they only had 16 colours on the ST, these days though you see every bit of stippling, the TV isn't providing anti-aliasing anymore, and no effect or filter can do as good a job as an old TV or an arcade VDU at blending pixels nicely. It's like waking up and noticing your wifes pretty face is actually made from Lego. Maybe that's why I don't get these new retro games that pixelate everything, pixels are cool these days, like that Bit Trip Runner game - yet we didn't see pixels back then, we saw ninjas and pirates just like we see in modern games. I think that's some of the reason why Braid did so well... it's not that it's just a pretty game, it's more like how we remember games like that. Put it next to Magic Pockets from 20 years ago, and I'd struggle to choose which one has better visuals.