186: The Best of All Possible Worlds

vede

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Wait, I may have misunderstood, but I got from this article, "Games shouldn't be realistic, because realistic games aren't fun."

Which just makes me say, "Games can be whatever the developer wants them to be, even if it's realistic, because some people think that realistic games are fun."

Seriously, I would like to play a gritty game set in the Civil War or something. Very, very few games ever actually try to take on important, real-world issues like movies or books do, and I think it's time. Why does no one try to make a game that sends an important, real-life message to the player? If books can change people's lives, games should be able to, also. Games should be able to motivate players to take action in their own lives, not just their virtual ones. If people did more of this, I think that most of society would see gamers with more respect.
 

Gladion

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vdgmprgrmr said:
Seriously, I would like to play a gritty game set in the Civil War or something. Very, very few games ever actually try to take on important, real-world issues like movies or books do, and I think it's time. Why does no one try to make a game that sends an important, real-life message to the player? If books can change people's lives, games should be able to, also. Games should be able to motivate players to take action in their own lives, not just their virtual ones. If people did more of this, I think that most of society would see gamers with more respect.
You get criticized for your game if you try to apply too much realism to it. I recall people complain about that new Brothers in arms game for showing Nazis dragging a woman into a barn and later show that woman lynched in the middle of that barn (and that was from a Videogame magazine). Games are still kid's toys, even if they're all violent and gruesome, in that case, they're big kid's toys. 100% entertainment, 0% pretension.

But I have to disagree with the article. Who says I don't want to see the protagonist suffer from regular life's problems and see him handle them? I don't want any more black/white worlds, and I think many people agree with me.
 

Resin213

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New York City? and you let some bloody guy into your lobby and just left him there? Silly Noob.

I disagree as well. My favorite games are Sandbox style games that allow you multiple approaches and styles to win and allow you to decide what is right and wrong. Escapism from moral decision making can be cool and all, but I prefer freedom to do as I please in a game.
 

Podunk

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vdgmprgrmr said:
Seriously, I would like to play a gritty game set in the Civil War or something.
As a matter of fact, there are a couple Civil War first-person shooter games produced by the History Channel... I've been wanting to play them, too. They seem pretty cool.


As for the article...
No one wants to experience the inner emotional life of a videogame character; no one wants to see Tommy Vercetti die like Al Pacino in Scarface; and certainly no one wants to play a videogame about someone's descent into heroin addiction.
By this logic, no one would want to play as, say, a trained hitman whose targets are not always unambiguously evil.

Hm, yet this trend (fortunately) continues throughout video games. Games have reached the point where it isn't always about saving the day, and it is perfectly okay to just tell a story instead. I for one would not like to go back to the NES days of 'There is a bad guy and possibly some kind of hostage so go right and kill monsters until the day is saved!'.
Now, this is not to say playing the good guy is never fun: there are times when all you want is to experience unambiguous moral righteousness and triumph over an obviously evil foe. But equally important are the other times when a gamer wants to see a really sweet story unfold in front of them. Personally, I hope that games of the near future explore both areas of storytelling more fully.
 

AgentNein

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Yeah, I just really couldn't disagree more with this article. I enjoy my Mario and My Zelda good vs. evil as much as the next guy, but to essentially say that all video gaming comes down to the need for escapism (and any opinion to the contrary is coming from the snoots and not the gamers) is sort of ignorant.
 

Deschamps

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paste said:
in Super Mario Bros., you stopped to ponder whether the princess wants to be with Bowser instead, because then you'd just stop playing.
I disagree. In Braid you find yourself in the same situation - you're trying to rescue the princess. But, without spoiling the story, the game asks you whether you really should be with the princess or not.

"No one wants to experience the inner emotional life of a videogame character; no one wants to see Tommy Vercetti die like Al Pacino in Scarface; and certainly no one wants to play a videogame about someone's descent into heroin addiction."

If a game could make me feel the inner turmoil of a heroin addict as well as the movie Half Nelson [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468489/] did, then I think it would be a game worth playing. Thank you Podunk for backing up my point before I made it. Saved me a bit of time. (also, thanks for reminding me to play Indigo Prophesy again, I've been meaning to get around to it)
 

Splitter

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teknoarcanist said:
" No one wants to experience the inner emotional life of a videogame character; no one wants to see Tommy Vercetti die like Al Pacino in Scarface; and certainly no one wants to play a videogame about someone's descent into heroin addiction."
You're joking, right? This is a joke. That's EXACTLY the kind of game I would want to play; how about pointing me to the developer that can pull it off with some nuance and depth? This article seems to imply that all gamers play games for the basic escapist entertainment of being the white knight saving the princess from the Totally Evil Wizard Guy, which just isn't true. Technology has sufficiently advanced now to the point that it is possible for videogames to tell an interactive story, and to tailor an emotional experience for the player. I'd kill to play as a heroin addict, but I don't think any dev on earth could make that and resist the urge to turn it into a minigame with flashing lights.
this basically sums up what I thought.
although it was a very well written article it was fundamentally flawed in that it was subtly taking the stance that games are just something to be enjoyed and aren't a legitimate art form, which is only a step away from the games are just for kids arguments.

EDIT: Just to add an afterthought.
An example of how games can be moved forward in the correct path was something I found whilst playing Fahrenheit. Sure I can see how the game could be heavily criticized for its somewhat lack of real gameplay but the story was so compelling I couldn't put it down.
Although I'm not entirely sure whether the rumours that you can achieve multiple hugely different endings are true, I would not be surprised and in that is a where the ability to forge your own story comes in and is done well.
Although many people disregard everything he says I found myself thoroughly agreeing with Yahtzee when he raised the point that if everything is left too open-ended (see farcry 2) and the story is left entirely up to you it usually won't work out.
But to have a number of paths which you will flow into fluidly whilst being often unaware of the path you have directed yourself into is a very good development.

This is where the all important ambiguity comes in.
In Fahrenheit you were often strapped for time. Unlike typical RPGs the world refused to wait around for you to check up on everything you want to before you decide to move the story on and it would force you to abandon potentially crucial information in order to survive.
Because how much you know would always be limited you had to make decisions without fully knowing the consequences of your actions.
This is what leads to the not knowing of which path you have directed yourself on.
In most games, regardless of their attempts to disguise it you can pretty much always tell the effect upon the story your decisions will make.
Although I may be wrong, and there is only one clear path and one ending it always felt to me as though there were other plausible ways the story could have panned out, or at least changes to the overall ending which could have been made by decisions you made, but it always felt like the way the story was going was influenced by my decisions, although I hadn't always been aware of the consequences.

This is the sort of the thing that will bring gaming closer to real life, and in the right way.

Don't get me wrong, I love a well done good vs clearly evil FPS/Survival Horror/RPG/RTS/etc but I would like to see games like what I have described being made also brought into existence.

Gaming is not just a form of light entertainment intended for kids, it is as valid an art form as theatre, television and film, just one filled with far more potential due to it's ability to be far more immersive than any of the other three.
 

Jackel86

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Damn good article and an excellent argument. I half agree with you, but I also enjoy games with a lot of depth as well. I have one specific point of disagreement.




SPOILERS (for The Force Unleashed)




When you said that no one wants to see Tommy Vercetti mowed down like Pacino in Scarface, I have to beg to differ. I think it's perfectly acceptable within the context of certain stories and games to have the main character die. I (unlike everyone else it seems) loved The Force Unleashed, especially the ending. I felt truly sad for our character, but much better when I completed the "bad" ending and saw the alternative. Sure, it sucks to lose the character you've grown to love in a game, but sometimes it makes the story that much more powerful. I would have accepted such an ending to the Max Payne series as well. It just seems appropriate sometimes.
 

Saevus

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You know, sometimes, you're perfectly right. Sometimes I want to sit down and enjoy a few hours of Team Fortress 2 in all its violent and cartoony splendour. And, if I interpreted your aims correctly, you did a good job of lampooning the "SERIOUS BUSINESS" thought trend that seems to forget that games should, generally speaking, be fun.

But sometimes, I want something a bit more mentally stimulating - and there certainly is a significant number of gamers who also feel that way. Games are supposed to be challenging, so why not pose a moral challenge along with the more conventional tests of skill?
 

Valiance

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I applaud the author for the subway thing. It made me laugh because I notice it happening to other people too often, and just laughing when they're manipulated and sent on their way.

Also, the point of the article is seen by me, and agreed to - to a point.

I just think that some games that have ambiguity can increase the experience, and characters with mixed feelings about certain things can also be more interesting to analyze and think about.

Take Spike Siegel for example...
 

Playbahnosh

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Gladion said:
You get criticized for your game if you try to apply too much realism to it. [...] 100% entertainment, 0% pretension.

[...]Who says I don't want to see the protagonist suffer from regular life's problems and see him handle them? I don't want any more black/white worlds, and I think many people agree with me.
You are contradicting yourself right there. Real world problems, as far as video games go, are considered "too much realism". Think about it, it's "not facing problems by not mentioning them" the Ostrich Effect. That's why you don't see thing like that in video games: run down heroin addicts, working-class family harassed to death by IRS, beaten up guy asking for help then robbing your home, the main protagonist dying a horrible and meaningless death in the end...etc. You won't see really "realistic" games, it won't happen.

Here is a good example of that by my favorite author, David Wong: The Ultimate War Simulation Game
I know it's on a humor site, but it was hosted on his own site way back when PWOT was still running. I think it's the best satire of what we are talking about here.
 

Brotherofwill

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Man I would love to have seen the expression on her face...

Good vs Evil will do to a certain point, but i think most people have that nagging little need for more depth. In the realms of ambiguity video games have a lot of potential and can only improve.
 

stchivo

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While games that offer pure escapist entertainment will always exist, and I will continue playing them, my favorite games not only offer great game play, but also really draw me into the story and create a connection between me and the other characters on an emotional level to a point where I really care about the characters. For example, Half Life 2 and the sequels did this for me. I don't know if it connected with everybody, but I know the developers wanted you to care about Alyx and company and it worked for me. I didn't mind when I was sent again to take care of business, or fix this or open that to help the characters advance. On the other hand, when I played Dead Space, I found myself getting really annoyed every time something was wrong and I was the only one to fix it. While I found it very entertaining to cut the limbs off as a new way of taking on the enemy, I just didn't care about any of the characters or the outcome and so I didn't finish the game.
Games have a potential for story telling and character development that has never been seen before. With a book, you read about others. In a movie you watch others. But in a game you become one of the characters and your actions could affect and influence other characters and the plot itself. I wish more developers would look at games from that point of view.
 

Crusnik

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Did you forget about the Tenpenny Tower quest in Fallout 3? SPOILER: It's just like your man in the rain example. You do the seemingly Good thing by helping the Ghouls live in "harmony" with the residents, but ultimately the ghouls murder everyone else in the tower.
 

Nutcase

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This is one of the worst Escapist features I've seen. 99% of games that have a plot are written with pre-kindergarten morality as is. If that's all you want, fine, but at least don't go and write an essay on how no one else should be allowed a choice either.

Splitter's reply says everything constructive I wanted to say on this.
 

excessum ado

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I gotta disagree with the whole "No one wants to experience the inner emotional life of a videogame character". I mean that kind of content results in the characters being more three dimensional and deeper. You care about them more. You relate to them more. In fact I think that is completely wrong. Character development is probably one of the most important things in creating an immerssive environment and a gripping story line. And saying that no one wants that is just ludicrous. And seeing Tony Vercetti Die like Al Pacino in Scarface would be freakin' awesome. The death scene in scarface remains one of the coolest moments in film history. Seeing Tommy experiance that would be incredible.
 

Byers

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You're just too clueless on the subject to be saying "what we, the gamers, want".
Just senseless violence for the sake of it has almost never been appealing. Moral choices, complex characters and immersion is so much more interesting whenever they appear. Superficial junk like Gears of War and Dead Space are only lauded by the criminally stupid.
 

AgentNein

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Crusnik said:
Did you forget about the Tenpenny Tower quest in Fallout 3? SPOILER: It's just like your man in the rain example. You do the seemingly Good thing by helping the Ghouls live in "harmony" with the residents, but ultimately the ghouls murder everyone else in the tower.
WHAT?!? Those ghouls....I vouched for them. I'm going back to Tenpenny and just taking them all out. I'm so disillusioned.