HDTV Processing Lag: The Silent Killer

Earnest Cavalli

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Jun 19, 2008
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HDTV Processing Lag: The Silent Killer



Ever wondered why you seem to do worse in games when playing on your fancy new HDTV? Don't second guess your skills just yet - you may have a case of "HDTV Processing Lag."

Luckily for you, Hypercombofinish has posted an excellent primer [http://www.hypercombofinish.com/post.php?id=90] on just what causes the issue, what it means for your gaming experience and what (if anything) you can do to alleviate the problem.

In a nutshell HDTV Processing Lag is a problem caused by the way electronics manufacturers craft high-end modern televisions. In an effort to make the picture that much more crisp and gorgeous, these firms have added a number of visual filters to their sets that cause a minuscule amount of delay between the input signal and what the TV actually displays.

This isn't a problem when you're watching something like a DVD. As long as the television in question adds a 300 millisecond delay to every part of the film, the entire thing appears to be playing as it should.

Gaming however is a different beast, and since you're constantly feeding new input to your console, and thus the TV, the delay can become quite noticeable -- particularly in games that require extreme precision such as Guitar Hero and Rock Band.

Interestingly, the less advanced CRT televisions of old didn't have this issue as they were able to display an image instantaneously, without having to add any sort of graphical trickery.

As Hypercombofinish points out, it is possible to calibrate certain games to make up for the lag, but there's no foolproof way to get rid of the problem entirely.

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Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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Don't Most HDTVs tell you the response delay, or is that a totally different animal?

For instance, mine says it has a '5ms response time', like an LCD monitor. I'd say that's not to shabby at all, but is what you're talking about different then what I'm thinking of?

Seems like something they wouldn't omit, if they are already posting another type of delay.
 

SharPhoe

The Nice-talgia Kerrick
Feb 28, 2009
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So THIS is what those tournament players were talking about! I had never heard of that kind of lag before, I just thought they were being incredibly picky.
 

B4D 9R4MM3R

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My TV has a 500ms lag on it, and couple that with my average connection I must get around 800ms lag. In a fast-paced game that is ridiculous.

I had already noticed it though; I always do better in LAN matches than online matches, even with the same people on the same teams on the same maps...
 

Anton P. Nym

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I love my 1080i HD CRT; it's on the older side, it's heavy as a cast-iron stove, and its 26" screen's small potatoes compared with the flatscreen monsters out there now, but it was half the price of a similarly-sized LCD when I bought it and has no perceptable processing delay... under 30ms, I think.

That being said, there are some good, fast flat-screens out there... and the "game mode" tip in that article is pure gold for any gamer looking for a new TV. (Oh, yeah, and my advice about getting the right output resolution so you don't have to run the TV's scaler is there too.)

-- Steve
 

Signa

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Baby Tea said:
For instance, mine says it has a '5ms response time', like an LCD monitor.
I always understood that spec to deal with the time it takes to clear the LCD, and show a new color. If you remember the original LCD screens had a lot of ghosting on them. You couldn't watch anything fast motion, because it was ghost like hell. Many early 90's laptops used them, and just moving your mouse would reveal a lot of the ghosting issue.
 

S.H.A.R.P.

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What the hell!!! THREE HUNDRED MILLISECONDS OF LAG??? (sorry for the caps, I'm just astounded). Are those milliseconds the same milliseconds as ping? Would that mean that say you usually have a ping of 30, with one of the lesser quality HDTV games you'd have 330 ping in games? That is bloody ridiculous! I must be mistaken somewhere, please, tell me that I'm wrong .

Not that I have a console, I don't even own a TV (I have a TV card in my PC), but if this were true then I have pity on the owners of such TV's. I play Unreal Tournament 2004 on my PC with 2ms delay on my screen, and a ping between 20 and 50 in online play. A ping of 80 is nearly considered unplayable (poor Italians, they have to live with it...).
 

Krakyn

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Lukeydoodly said:
No HDTV for me then...
It really depends on the TV. My new 42" Panasonic Plasma for my room only has a 5ms lag. That's near instantaneous. I'm laying in bed playing Oblivion right now and noticing absolutely nothing.

Edit:

Signa said:
Baby Tea said:
For instance, mine says it has a '5ms response time', like an LCD monitor.
I always understood that spec to deal with the time it takes to clear the LCD, and show a new color. If you remember the original LCD screens had a lot of ghosting on them. You couldn't watch anything fast motion, because it was ghost like hell. Many early 90's laptops used them, and just moving your mouse would reveal a lot of the ghosting issue.
Maybe I'm using the wrong statistic as well, then. But I, and friends, have played Guitar Hero on my new TV and not noticed any difference between HD and CRT lag-wise. I really bet the processing power of the television matters, and newer ones are much better.
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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Krakyn said:
Lukeydoodly said:
No HDTV for me then...
It really depends on the TV. My new 42" Panasonic Plasma for my room only has a 5ms lag. That's near instantaneous. I'm laying in bed playing Oblivion right now and noticing absolutely nothing.
Yeah, after reading the primer it seems that's not what this article is referring to. I have a 40" Samsung LCD that has 5ms, but this seems like a totally different type of 'lag'. I'll have to head home and run through the some of the settings today after work.
Maybe I'm not so bad online after all!
 

FistsOfTinsel

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Jun 23, 2008
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You should check the setup menu of your TV. Many TVs have "Game Mode" specification under the display settings, that cuts out all or most of this preprocessing. I think the problem may be exacerbated when you run an SD console (like the Wii, or the 360 or PS3 if you've set the display options to SD), since the HDTVs do a lot of processing to the SD signal to make it look decent.

My Sony KDS-50A2000 has this feature, and it definitely made a difference once I turned it on - most noticable in rhythm games.

Edit: I see that the article mentions this fix. I find it a little alarmist, though to claim that "All flat panel screens will introduce some lag". After making sure you're running in the right resolution and have set up game mode, I doubt most systems will be lagging more than 15ms (the amount of time per frame in a 60 fps game), and 5 ms would likely be the amount.
 

Kross

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Sep 27, 2004
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Both Rock Band and Guitar Hero have menu options to calibrate for HDTV lag. The newest Rock Band has a really nice lag calibration that seems to work with minimal effort.

There's two types of lag, visual and audio. Using Rock Band as an example, if you strum and it looks like you are on the note, but still miss; that's visual lag, and the note has actually already passed the sweet spot.

However, with audio lag, that's the difference from when a note passes the sweet spot, and when you hear it (you'll hear it too late). You can reduce or eliminate audio lag by plugging in external speakers directly to your console. The external speakers won't (or shouldn't) introduce audio lag to your sound. So even if the notes in a game look "off", you'll still hear them at the right times and can play to that.

If you are unable to adjust the settings, or are at a friend's house that insists their TV is calibrated and won't change it, try hitting your marks slightly early in rhythm games. (picture a second note directly under the note you are trying to hit, touching the actual note) If you play "early", you'll probably hit most of the notes you were previously missing, and seem like a better player, but it's a pain in the ass and less fun.

For non rhythm games, the lag is mostly too small to matter; and for FPS games where it might matter, they already devote a lot of code to accounting for various types of lag, which should make it negligible.

Edit: Also, as mentioned above, look for a "game mode" on your TV. That will eliminate most of the lag, if not all of it.
 

CyberKnight

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Baby Tea said:
Krakyn said:
Lukeydoodly said:
No HDTV for me then...
It really depends on the TV. My new 42" Panasonic Plasma for my room only has a 5ms lag. That's near instantaneous. I'm laying in bed playing Oblivion right now and noticing absolutely nothing.
Yeah, after reading the primer it seems that's not what this article is referring to. I have a 40" Samsung LCD that has 5ms, but this seems like a totally different type of 'lag'. I'll have to head home and run through the some of the settings today after work.
Maybe I'm not so bad online after all!
Yeah, completely different. The advertised spec is screen redraw and has to do with "ghosting" (i.e. do you see a trailing "ghost" image when an object moves across the screen). What they're talking about is the delay between when the TV gets the signal and when that signal is on the screen, and that's rarely (if ever) advertised.

Kross said:
However, with audio lag, that's the difference from when a note passes the sweet spot, and when you hear it (you'll hear it too late). You can reduce or eliminate audio lag by plugging in external speakers directly to your console. The external speakers won't (or shouldn't) introduce audio lag to your sound. So even if the notes in a game look "off", you'll still hear them at the right times and can play to that.
Maybe, maybe not. I have my optical cable plugged directly in to the console for audio, and there is definitely some audio lag. I think there's a bit of lag introduced in the surround sound decoding process in my (budget) audio system.

Which is mildly ironic for me, since I have a hi-def CRT. My problem is the audio, not the video. (Well, that, and my aging reflexes...)
 

Cousin_IT

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im gonna go give my CRT TVs a hug now
*hugs obsolete but still perfectly adequate technology*
 

roekenny

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Cousin_IT said:
im gonna go give my CRT TVs a hug now
*hugs obsolete but still perfectly adequate technology*
Why took me so long to get rid of my old CRT for PC and got my folks 32 inch TV for my 360 as so dam reliable. Nowadays monitors are 5 and 2 ms what nothing so good time to upgrade.