1ReasonWhy We Need_to Change the Way We Fight Against Sexism

[rbstewart7263]

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/JanetteGoering/20130329/189579/1ReasonWhy_We_Need_to_Change_the_Way_We_Fight_Against_Sexism.php


This is an article from Janette Goering. Shes been wanting to make videogames since she was 12 and at the time of this article is about to finish a double major in art and in programming.

She writes about how we as an industry need to change the way that we fight for equality in this industry and discusses her fears that #1 reason why is turning into a divider instead of a uniter for our industy.

I implore my fellow escapists to give this article a read and then to give it some serious consideration before you post. And not just on here but on the next sexism thread as well. Ive popped into the "sexism debates" for a year now and as far as I can tell they only succeed in raising blood pressure. And not just for the sake of ending annoying debates and finally coming to a reasonable consensus on a few things. But also to better enrich our industry with positive equality rather than a negative imitation of what equality looks like.

 

[Lilani]

Why did you copy your thread title from the URL? Would it have been so hard to write it yourself? The way it reads now, it looks like a spambot thread.

Anyway, on the topic at hand, I believe I agree with her. If there's one thing I'm starting to notice about this "sexism in the industry" thing, it's that when talking about it we need to draw a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIG fat line between sexism in games and sexism in the games industry. Most stories I've encountered about women on the creation end of the games industry is similar to this one. From what I've see anyway, there isn't so much gatekeeping going on as there simply aren't many women entering the industry. And this isn't just limited to games--people have talked for decades about why there aren't as many women in the construction, science, and mathematics fields. Gender quotas and forced ratios are stupid plans, our plan should be finding the root of why women aren't as prone to go to these fields as others. And that topic goes into implied gender roles and the impact of media and society on girls as they grow up, which is more or less unrelated to the topic at hand (at least directly).

As for sexism in games, I think when we're getting stories about devs like Naughty Dog having to make special requests just to get their games tested on female gamers, and devs like Dontnod who are making Remember Me having to fight tooth and nail to have a female protagonist because their higher ups are telling them in no uncertain terms that the game cannot succeed with a female protagonist, and that males will find it so incredibly awkward they will avoid it like the plague...it's pretty clear the industry has some pretty fucked-up views on demographics and gender politics, at least when it comes to the content of their games.

Some people like to assume that because they will defend such backwards ideas for the content of their games, those ideas carry over to their professional environment. I'm inclined to say it doesn't, at least on a scale that would be massive enough to cause such a disparity without groups like the ACLU getting involved. Because that's the thing--you can ignore and exclude women all you want in games and movies and whatever other products you produce, but on the business side of it you can face some massive legal repercussions if it's found you are systematically excluding women from your employment for no other reason than their gender.

So, yeah. Get it right people--just because a lot of publishers need lessons in how to deal with demographics doesn't necessarily mean they're purposefully not giving women jobs. Also, what publishers (and developers) want above all is money. There is no money to be made in sexism, all you do is run the risk of getting sued. However, there is money to be made in targeting demographics. The problem publishers is that the demographics are changing and they are not. But, at this point blindly following these demographics has earned them money, so they're going to cling to the system until its dying breath.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Exactly. Ive been saying all along that alot of gamers are not as bad as some make it out to be. Most of us are males trying really hard to set a balance to where we can all have fun in the gaming industry whether it be playing games or designing them.

 

[Little Gray]

And this isn't just limited to games--people have talked for decades about why there aren't as many women in the construction, science, and mathematics fields. Gender quotas and forced ratios are stupid plans, our plan should be finding the root of why women aren't as prone to go to these fields as others. And that topic goes into implied gender roles and the impact of media and society on girls as they grow up, which is more or less unrelated to the topic at hand (at least directly).

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.

So, yeah. Get it right people--just because a lot of publishers need lessons in how to deal with demographics doesn't necessarily mean they're purposefully not giving women jobs. Also, what publishers (and developers) want above all is money. There is no money to be made in sexism, all you do is run the risk of getting sued. However, there is money to be made in targeting demographics. The problem publishers is that the demographics are changing and they are not. But, at this point blindly following these demographics has earned them money, so they're going to cling to the system until its dying breath.

You are both right and wrong here. They are not blindly following anything they are paying attention to where the majority of sales come from. From a publisher point of view women are simply not a large enough group to warrant paying special attention to unless its a PR stunt. They are happy to include any changes women want though as long as it doesn't interfere with their core target audience and doesn't cost to much money.

Its a double edged sword though because we will never get a large percentage of female gamers until games start to target them and we will never get games targeting women until they become a large percentage of gamers.

I am obviously speaking in general here because there will always be exceptions.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.


statistically they are equal. A 30 second google search displays this.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.


statistically they are equal. A 30 second google search displays this.

You flubbed your quote marks. It looks like you're saying the first line, not quoting it from the previous poster.

Make sure to include {quote} and {/quote} where the { marks is replaced with a [ mark.

OT: ....

I'll just leave this one to Lilani

 

[Erttheking]

It's like I've been saying. We need to approach the subject calmly and rationally if we want to get anywhere.

 

[rbstewart7263]

It's like I've been saying. We need to approach the subject calmly and rationally if we want to get anywhere.

The way things are going Theyl just keep the proverbial stones and whip handy in case any of the devs dare get out of line. lol " MORE CLEAVAGE!!! BEAT HIM!!!!!" lmao

 

[Panzer Camper]

I see this more and more around when the term "feminism" is brought up. Most reasonable people do not really see it in the same light. I'm an atheist (I swear it will be related shortly) and I see this creeping up in our little groups when we have conventions and the like. A group feels the entire world is against them and they make this plan to completely revamp the world into thinking a particular way and they have the "If you are not with us, you are against us... or Satan" attitude which does not help our cause. It is perfectly reasonable to talk about sexism in the video game industry or racism in Mormanism, what ever floats your boat really.

The thing that bugs me is this attitude where everything is a strict black and white where civilians are conscripted into this army against "insert complaint here" or are shot (it's hurting atheism , gay rights, and feminism now). Maybe if we want the stigma against woman in the video game industry to go away perhaps we shouldn't tell a company to hire more women because they are sexist if they don't. Perhaps we should just hire the people best for the job? Maybe pushing a company to look at whether or not an applicant has boobs and then encouraging them to hire the ones with boobs cuz "that's equal" is bad idea and hurts your case. It seems like true feminism would never bring up sex unless you absolutely had to because someone is being a douche. I would think a feminist (I believe I am one) would want people to not ever look at gender when talking about hiring people.

Maybe if you notice a developer has no females on the team you are the one that has the problem? There is a remote possibility that team just picked the best they could and got all males and your constant complaints are the real problem. If a hiring manager sees some idiot woman raging about a dongle joke, he may rethink hiring that smart new intern female because she may be as unstable as that one. Is it fair? No, but you will not change any minds being a jackass, changing minds occurs by example, by showing people your boobs or dongles have nothing to do with your ability to do your job.

Here in America we finally are near the edge of getting gay rights (finally). Does anyone honestly think that the radical gay guys that dressed up as nuns and went into churches changed any minds? Or do you think it was the normal people who went to work everyday, and showed people that they are the same as everyone else except his girlfriends name is Terry and he makes a mean chip dip?

Edit: I thought the article by Janette was well done, btw. It shows how blown out of proportion this whole thing is as you can see she is not spat upon for being a woman that thinks. Is it an issue? Sure, I guess, I personally don't know people in the industry so I won't just make wild leaps like that, but gentle suggestions are far more persuasive to the everyman/woman than screaming how bad they are.

 

[VanQ]

#1ReasonWhy is either going to be the great uniter of our times, or the great divider. We claim we want unity and equality, but if my male peers were to express the views I just have, they would be flamed to hell and back. They would be called enemies of the cause, oppressors of women. Is that equality? Or do we want separate but equal treatment?

Sad but true. I've expressed similar opinions to her, albeit far less eloquently than her, and had the very thing she described happen to me. The amount of times I've had the words "pig," "misogynist" and "chauvinist" thrown at me for expressing a differing opinion honestly staggers me.

Even sadder thing is, it's not likely to be feminist women that throw those words at you, but feminist men. I once said something along the line of "I'm not a feminist. I'm an equalist." and was treated to a metaphorical internet stoning by hordes of people that didn't bother to make any kind of argument against my statement, they just concluded that I was a "disgusting pig" or "vile vermin" that is a stain upon humanity. The fact that the word "equalist" isn't in the dictionary should be a travesty.

I believe in the value of each person as an individual. Not their gender/race/sexuality/what-have-you. One day we might be able to get past knee jerk reaction and name calling and be able to discuss things like genuine equality. But it's not going to happen if we only focus on the problems of one group and attempt to elevate them above the rest because of crimes our grandfathers committed.

I really just want you to realize that I never oppressed anyone. That was a bunch of people I never knew that lived long before me and I should not have to carry the weight of their bullshit. We're smarter now and we know sexism/etc. is wrong and slowly we are trying to fix things. I will do my best not to be sexist so please stop jumping to the conclusion that I'm a sexist because I don't worship you.

I'm awful with words. Chances are someone's going to take this the wrong way and tell me what an awful person I am anyway so yeah... I'm out.

One last thought, I've heard about this #1ReasonWhy thingy but have no idea what it is. Anyone care to enlighten?

 

[Ryotknife]

Wow, I actually agreed with everything she said, and the comments on the article made me chuckle as well. That said, I fear for her sanity if she keeps following this path as both sides will demonize her.

Situating yourself in between two conflicting group of crazies is perhaps the worse place you can be.

Even sadder thing is, it's not likely to be feminist women that throw those words at you, but feminist men. I once said something along the line of "I'm not a feminist. I'm an equalist." and was treated to a metaphorical internet stoning by hordes of people that didn't bother to make any kind of argument against my statement, they just concluded that I was a "disgusting pig" or "vile vermin" that is a stain upon humanity. The fact that the word "equalist" isn't in the dictionary should be a travesty.

okay, I thought I was going insane lately because I have been noticing this too. about 75% of the time if I get into a tussle with someone who identifies themselves as a feminist it is usually a male feminist. Ive known quite a few female feminists who are what I consider to be reasonable, but significantly fewer male feminists whom I can say the same thing.

For example, lately President Obama got quite a bit of flak over calling a woman beautiful. The next day on CNN there were two opinion pieces on it. One from a female feminist, one from a male feminist. The female feminist was telling everyone to Chill the F out on Obama, the male feminist wanted Obama crucified (metaphorically).

A few months ago there was a piece on Kotaku from a male feminist talking about super Mario brothers 1 and the sexism in that game. No, not about the damsel in distress. About how mushrooms and goombas were specifically designed and implemented to oppress women as they were phallic symbols.

I will admit, it would be hilarious on so many levels if it turns out that male feminists are the ones mucking everything up for the movement.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Its pretty basic really. Genetically and statistically women are on average worse at all of those fields then men.


statistically they are equal. A 30 second google search displays this.

You flubbed your quote marks. It looks like you're saying the first line, not quoting it from the previous poster.

Make sure to include {quote} and {/quote} where the { marks is replaced with a [ mark.

OT: ....

I'll just leave this one to Lilani

nay I was too lazy to quote him. lol the time it would take to cut out everything else or worse, ADDING THE BRACKETS!!

 

[Phasmal]

The gist of her article as far as I can see is `Fight sexism, but don't blame men for everything`.
Well duh.
She has a good but kind of obvious point.

I don't get angry at men, I get angry at behaviours and attitudes. Those things don't have genitals.
I'd really like it if more men got involved, actually, I think too many think they don't have to care about it. Which is probably true, mostly it doesn't affect them, but I think that making our community better is going to come down mostly to men. (In that, the dickheads in our community are often so to impress other guys, and so are unlikely to listen to women telling them to stop, but might listen to other guys).

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Well. I came here expecting to find some more white knight crap and actually no, the article makes sense. In fact from what I read (hint: didn't read ALL of it), it seems to be pretty much my opinion as well. Not forcing equality where it's arbitrary, and not claiming sexism or (if you're feeling particularly offended) misogyny where it doesn't exist. If a team of game devs happen all to be male, why is that bad? In fact, why is that even noticed? If we're going to aim for equality we need to stop making an issue out of gender where there is no reason to. Can you imagine what the response would be if someone said "And this game is particularly special because it was developed only by black people"? From those of my line of thinking, I'm pretty sure we'd question the relevance of what race the developers are.

 

[veloper]

What a very reasonable article. How dull.
If you're going to fight for a lost cause, atleast try to entertain. In the meantime I'll keep my fingers crossed for Anita to troll the hell out of the internet with her future videos. The first one was too tame already.

 

[zefiris]

Lots of fallacies there. This argument has been used in every single industry where women faced issues and has, so far, always turned out wrong. In fact, it was even said by a fake Radium Girl, a fake created to make said company look better. Google it and weep.

There is absolutely gatekeeping in the gaming industry, some of which I have faced myself, and there is also quite a lot of rather open sexism among some of the devs. That's not exactly a secret.


Of course people here don't want to hear that - you dudes are still busy agreeing with the attacks on Sarkeesian.

 

[Tom_green_day]

The problem with most anti-sexism, I find, is ad hominem (basically, attacking your opponent instead of having reasonable points against them). Most (vocal) people just assume it's men being really sexist to women, and this alienates me against most arguments.

 

[Smeatza]

A reasonable blog post, but hardly insightful to anyone who was already looking at things in a rational manner.

okay, I thought I was going insane lately because I have been noticing this too. about 75% of the time if I get into a tussle with someone who identifies themselves as a feminist it is usually a male feminist. Ive known quite a few female feminists who are what I consider to be reasonable, but significantly fewer male feminists whom I can say the same thing.

I will third this. I guess some male feminists just end up WAY over-compensating.

 

[Kururu999]

.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

A reasonable article from a reasonable person... how reasonable.

Now where's the unreasonable article about Gamasutra being a hot bed of misogyny based solely on the play on words in it's very name? Something about the Kamasutra supporting Rape Culture?

No?

We're going to be reasonable?

We're going to talk about this like adults?

Sorry... I have to go wipe a few tears of joy from my face... /sniff