2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)

[Agema]

Then why are you instigating it? If you want to stop being told you're lying, stop lying! The fact that you explicitly acknowledge you're phrasing it in a way that you know is wrong and you know will lead to you being called a liar says to me that you prefer that to actual argument. Can't win the argument, so may as well degrade it, right?

But I'm not lying. Trump very clearly announced to the world that he had proposed injecting bleach to cure coronavirus. He told us that the US government would be reseaching it, which implied its plausibility.

I think you're trying to claim that I said Trump explicitly encouraged people to inject themselves with or ingest bleach, but I haven't.

 

[tstorm823]

Trump very clearly announced to the world that he had proposed injecting bleach to cure coronavirus.

Source or quit.

 

[Agema]

Source or quit.

I've already posted a transcript of his Coronavirus briefing from 23rd April 2020 in post #599, which you have already quoted from.

You can watch video here, 24:20 - 25:20.

 

[Fieldy409]

Interesting discussion on whether supression or elimination should be the goal.

I'm team elimination. Soap kills it, its not airborne, it dies mere hours outside of the body and barriers stop it. I don't see why we can't wipe it out if we get a critical mass of people with good practices.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

I've already posted a transcript of his Coronavirus briefing from 23rd April 2020 in post #599, which you have already quoted from.

You can watch video here, 24:20 - 25:20.

Agema, this was your quote.

"So I asked Bill a question some of you are thinking of if you're into that world, which I find to be pretty interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether its ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said, that hasn't been checked but you're gonna test it. And then I said, supposing it brought the light inside the body, which you can either do either through the skin or some other way, and I think you said you're gonna test that too, sounds interesting. And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs, and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that. So that you're going to have use medical doctors with."

I assume you're interpreting this line, "And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning." His specific words are "is there a way you can do something like that" that's not him saying people should inject themselves with bleach, I'd argue he's not even asking for the use of bleach to do this but asking if there's something that can do something like bleach.

 

[SupahEwok]

This thread gives me a fucking headache.

 

[Neuromancer]

This thread gives me a fucking headache.

There's a thread that doesn't give you a headache?

 

[SupahEwok]

There's a thread that doesn't give you a headache?

Mine, which are wholesome and positive.

 

[Neuromancer]

Mine, which are wholesome and positive.

Also dead.

 

[SupahEwok]

Also dead.

Too pure for this Internet.

 

[Houseman]

Too pure for this Internet.

Now you know how it feels!

 

[Agema]

I assume you're interpreting this line, "And I then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute, and is there a way you can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning." His specific words are "is there a way you can do something like that" that's not him saying people should inject themselves with bleach, I'd argue he's not even asking for the use of bleach to do this but asking if there's something that can do something like bleach.

No, I'm more interpreting the whole excerpt, because as I will explain, the whole thing is a travesty.

He starts off by proposing UV sterilisation of humans to fight covid-19, by blasting "bodies" with "very powerful" light "through the skin". At a strength to kill the virus, this would also inflict severe tissue burns and cancer. This is perhaps the funniest thing: he'd already dug himself a deep hole of stupid before he even segued onto disinfectant. That UV debacle also then sets the tone and context for disinfectant. If you just passively read that and draw the plainest meaning, he's talking about injecting disinfectant. That's why pretty much everyone interpreted it so. The reason people are trying to argue otherwise is because they are actively trying to go in and interpret it differently to find a specific conclusion to excuse him. Then it's just the same old stupid game, and it always works the same way. Find a word or phrase that's vague/ambiguous (and "something like that" is a great example) and of all the possible meanings it could have, instill it with one, very specific meaning that results in the most pleasing outcome, even if deeply implausible. Then dig the heels in and deny any other valid possibility exists.

Thus querying the bleach injection stuff is only just a weak semantic contrivance in the first place, and it doesn't address the fact that it's merely one small segment in a passage of whole, non-stop idiocy.

This is even without going into just how stupid and useless it is to waste time discussing such an impractical, hypothetical topic when the task at hand is to present useful information to the public about an ongoing crisis. And to have that topic explained by an unprepared ignoramus, who not only spouts a load of dross but does it so inarticulately it may as well be the confused ramblings of someone cognitively impaired.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Then it's just the same old stupid game, and it always works the same way. Find a word or phrase that's vague/ambiguous (and "something like that" is a great example) and of all the possible meanings it could have, instill it with one, very specific meaning that results in the most pleasing outcome, even if deeply implausible. Then dig the heels in and deny any other valid possibility exists.

Doesn't this argument apply to those looking for the most awful interpretation?

Thus querying the bleach injection stuff is only just a weak semantic contrivance in the first place, and it doesn't address the fact that it's merely one small segment in a passage of whole, non-stop idiocy.

This is even without going into just how stupid and useless it is to waste time discussing such an impractical, hypothetical topic when the task at hand is to present useful information to the public about an ongoing crisis. And to have that topic explained by an unprepared ignoramus, who not only spouts a load of dross but does it so inarticulately it may as well be the confused ramblings of someone cognitively impaired.

Then why say he told people to inject bleach into themselves as a quote, instead of just saying he's an idiot that knows nothing of medicine?

 

[Silvanus]

If you just passively read that and draw the plainest meaning, he's talking about injecting disinfectant. That's why pretty much everyone interpreted it so. The reason people are trying to argue otherwise is because they are actively trying to go in and interpret it differently to find a specific conclusion to excuse him. Then it's just the same old stupid game, and it always works the same way. Find a word or phrase that's vague/ambiguous (and "something like that" is a great example) and of all the possible meanings it could have, instill it with one, very specific meaning that results in the most pleasing outcome, even if deeply implausible. Then dig the heels in and deny any other valid possibility exists.

Imagine if the Democrats had adopted this approach in 2016.

"Clinton said you 'could' put half of Trump's supporters in a basket of deplorables, not that you should! It's just a hypothetical scenario, completely unrelated to what she thinks we should do! And besides, who says 'basket of deplorables' isn't a misnomer? It could be a lovely basket".

It's almost as if this inane quibbling is an insult to the voters' intelligence.

 

[SupahEwok]

Then why say he told people to inject bleach into themselves as a quote, instead of just saying he's an idiot that knows nothing of medicine?

Does saying that really need saying, though? What I find so inane about this conversation is that anybody can look at the transcript and recognize that Trump is spouting incoherent, stream of conscious nonsense, and if he's that bad on camera where it's most important for him to pull himself together, hoo boy do I fear what's been going on in the Whitehouse for the last 4 years.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

Does saying that really need saying, though? What I find so inane about this conversation is that anybody can look at the transcript and recognize that Trump is spouting incoherent, stream of conscious nonsense, and if he's that bad on camera where it's most important for him to pull himself together, hoo boy do I fear what's been going on in the Whitehouse for the last 4 years.

And the Democratic candidate isn't much better so there's never been a better time to vote third party.

 

[SupahEwok]

And the Democratic candidate isn't much better so there's never been a better time to vote third party.

The difference is that I think Biden will nap in the Oval Office while the rest of the Whitehouse is left alone to do their work, whereas Trump is a rabid rhinoceros of a manager who is an active impediment to effective administration.

The former makes me want to puke when I consider voting for him, but I've changed my mind in the past few weeks on voting third-party. I do not believe that Trump can be allowed to remain in office when (hopefully) the vaccine rollout begins. Not after the absolute mess that has been made of this country's response, especially in terms of the allocation of medical supplies. Sleepy Joe napping on the farm is preferable to Trump's antics, and the effectivity of that rollout is (also hopefully) the biggest economic and political challenge of the immediate next 4 years.

 

[Avnger]

And the Democratic candidate isn't much better so there's never been a better time to vote third party.

The third party that has a literal 0% chance of winning the race? The third party that controls 0 seats in either house of Congress, 0 governorships, and 0 state legislatures? The third party that doesn't influence effected policy on anything beyond a county level, if that? Definitely a wise use of your limited say in a first-past-the-post system.

 

[Houseman]

anybody can look at the transcript and recognize that Trump is spouting incoherent, stream of conscious nonsense

If you want to claim that Trump was spouting incoherent, stream of conscious nonsense, fine.

But claiming that the he suggested that the American people should poison themselves is orders of magnitude more severe. Lil devils, for example, was even CONVINCED that Trump explicitly said to inject bleach right into the eyeball, based on this same video. Someone else came to his defense and accused me of "gaslighting" when I disagreed.

People are playing a dangerous, dishonest game of telephone with these statements, and the media is complicit in it with misleading, exaggerated headlines like "Trump Promotes Injecting Bleach" and statements like "President Donald Trump had suggested on Thursday that people should consider ingesting or injecting bleach"

And all you have to do is tweak one or two words here and there, and we've gone from a hypothetical question, asked to medical experts, to an official endorsement from the POTUS that could get someone killed.

Key point: ...that could get someone killed.

You've heard of people who have actually injected or drank bleach, haven't you? Where do you think they got the idea from? How do you think lil devils arrived at her conclusion that Trump said anything about eyeballs? Can the blame be placed solely on Trump, or was it the media who, in a mad dash to denigrate their political or ideological opponents, or in an attempt to get more clicks and advertising revenue, made something sound worse than it really was?

It's in everyone's best interest to NOT spread misinformation that could get someone killed. If a "Trump-lover" overhears you saying "...yeah he wants us to inject bleach right into the eye! How silly!", he might actually go and do it. You don't want this to happen, do you? It might be tempting, but I believe that you're a good person who wouldn't wish this on his worst enemy.

Seriously, @lil devils x where did the "inject it into the eye" thing come from? Who told you that?

But anyway, sorry to interrupt. I just think that language is important. I'll go away now.

 

[SupahEwok]

The third party that has a literal 0% chance of winning the race? The third party that controls 0 seats in either house of Congress, 0 governorships, and 0 state legislatures? The third party that doesn't influence effected policy on anything beyond a county level, if that? Definitely a wise use of your limited say in a first-past-the-post system.

See, the thing is, it is.

If someone votes third-party in the US election, it means they're so dissatisfied by their pickings, and yet are serious enough about their civic duty, that they'll throw their vote away. All votes are messages of what the people want, and in that, people are making their voice heard. The proper response is not to sneer at them, but to address their concerns. Yet precious little of that has been happening in this election cycle, to my observation. It's mainly ostracizing, gaslighting, guilt tripping, pleading, and screaming. It's like people have no idea how to build bridges with others at all, which makes me fear for their personal relationships off the internet. I have made the decision to switch my vote from protest to Biden based on my own thoughts, despite the wailing and haranguing of portions of the left which actively repel me from them.

And all you have to do is tweak one or two words here and there, and we've gone from a hypothetical question, asked to medical experts,

And this is where you lose me. I consider arguing about language use is disambiguation and discussion derailment, over the fact that, apparently, the President of the United States was asking his medical experts on live television if we can explore disinfectant injections as a viable medical practice.

The man is bughouse and sitting on one of the biggest collections of powers in the world, and people want to spend 15 forum pages debating on the precise interpretations of his ramblings like he's the Oracle of Delphi.

It's madness.