2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)

Agema

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You might want to check the name vitamin D to find out what it is...
Before I explain here, bear in mind a lot of these definitions of biological terms are notoriously woolly. A "vitamin" means a particular form of key dietary nutrient important to metabolic activity (and that are not otherwise classified as something else). A "hormone" is a chemical messenger molecule for endocrine signalling, i.e. it requires long-distance transport around the body (blood) from its point of release to reach its target of effect. The two, therefore, are not mutually incompatible.

The point is that if you say vitamin D is also a hormone, the answer is really "So what?" It's a truism, lacking any clear point to be worth mentioning. Being a hormone doesn't intrinsically make it any more or less important than if it were a enzyme cofactor, substrate, etc.
 

Phoenixmgs

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People are doing studies on Vit D, so things are working as they should.



Hypotheses are not the same thing as reality.



Facepalm.



That'd be one you haven't looked at because you don't read the evidence base properly or use sources that accurately represent the evidence base.



Still banging that discredited drum as well, eh?
They should've been telling people to take vitamin d long before, it's basically free and does no harm. That's literally the same reason for masking; it's super cheap, does no harm; "better safe than sorry". Instead of doing that, let's wait a year when we are 100% it works and we already have a vaccine. Yep, that's real smart!!! Are you gonna wait to tell your kids to not run with scissors until there's a proper RCT of it?


And you can't produce any studies that link to death because there are none then (or the P value is so high it don't matter)? I cite my sources.

I wonder why HCQ is standard of care in many places. The US standard of care for covid is rest until you get sick enough to need to go to the hospital, pretty sad.


You might want to check the name vitamin D to find out what it is...
 
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Kwak

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This seems relevant perhaps...
Most recent study released.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(20)30380-6/fulltext

Interpretation
Monthly bolus doses of 60 000 IU of vitamin D did not reduce the overall risk of acute respiratory tract infection, but could slightly reduce the duration of symptoms in the general population. These findings suggest that routine vitamin D supplementation of a population that is largely vitamin D replete is unlikely to have a clinically relevant effect on acute respiratory tract infection.
 
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Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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And you can't produce any studies that link to death because there are none then (or the P value is so high it don't matter)? I cite my sources.
I'm just fed up bothering because I don't feel that you pay any attention.

I wonder why HCQ is standard of care in many places.
Have you thought maybe because their health services are less responsive than yours? The US health service might have massive issues in terms of not providing care to people (especially the poor), but when it does provide care it tends to be very high quality.

There's been another major negative result from a large HCQ trial, incidentally.

This seems relevant perhaps...
Most recent study released.
Yes. Most of the studies looking at Vit D and acute respiratory disorders seem to say that there's a benefit to supplementation for people below the deficiency threshold (usually defined 20-30 nmol/l) but it's hard to see much improvement for people with higher levels.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I'm just fed up bothering because I don't feel that you pay any attention.



Have you thought maybe because their health services are less responsive than yours? The US health service might have massive issues in terms of not providing care to people (especially the poor), but when it does provide care it tends to be very high quality.

There's been another major negative result from a large HCQ trial, incidentally.
Cite your sources...? Why don't you tell Dr. Fauci that taking 6,000 IUs of vitamin d could lead to death?

Yes, telling people to stay home and rest until they get bad enough to need to go to the hospital is very responsive!!!

Again, cite your sources...? I'm guessing it didn't include zinc or was late-stage treatment or high p-value or all of the above.

I cite my sources, is it really that hard to Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V?
 

Agema

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Cite your sources...? Why don't you tell Dr. Fauci that taking 6,000 IUs of vitamin d could lead to death?
e.g. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/6/2339/2829632

As I have said numerous times, taking 6000 IU Vit D is not necessarily a problem. If that's what it really takes to get your plasma concentration to the appropriate level, so be it. But most people can do it off about a tenth of that.

Yes, telling people to stay home and rest until they get bad enough to need to go to the hospital is very responsive!!!
In the context of very heavy demand on hospitals, it is the right thing to do. The hospitals will necessarily be a major infection risk to non-infected as they are full of covid-19 patients and have scarce resources so want to minimise non-urgent admissions. Plus increased risk of infection spread by sick people travelling in, coughing germs all over everyone in transit and reception, etc.

Again, cite your sources...? I'm guessing it didn't include zinc or was late-stage treatment or high p-value or all of the above.
Fuck zinc and HCQ. The HCQ horse is, if not dead, then wheezing it's last few breaths. Stop flogging it.

HCQ was the overhyped wonder drug. And then it was shown to not work and they argued it was for prophylaxis. And that was shown to not work either and they argued early treatment. And then that was shown not to work and now it's because they're not adding zinc. What'll it be when that turns out to be a bust, too?

HCQ believerdom isn't science. It's a cult.
 

Phoenixmgs

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e.g. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/100/6/2339/2829632

As I have said numerous times, taking 6000 IU Vit D is not necessarily a problem. If that's what it really takes to get your plasma concentration to the appropriate level, so be it. But most people can do it off about a tenth of that.



In the context of very heavy demand on hospitals, it is the right thing to do. The hospitals will necessarily be a major infection risk to non-infected as they are full of covid-19 patients and have scarce resources so want to minimise non-urgent admissions. Plus increased risk of infection spread by sick people travelling in, coughing germs all over everyone in transit and reception, etc.



Fuck zinc and HCQ. The HCQ horse is, if not dead, then wheezing it's last few breaths. Stop flogging it.

HCQ was the overhyped wonder drug. And then it was shown to not work and they argued it was for prophylaxis. And that was shown to not work either and they argued early treatment. And then that was shown not to work and now it's because they're not adding zinc. What'll it be when that turns out to be a bust, too?

HCQ believerdom isn't science. It's a cult.
And literally the 1st similar article linked below yours is this saying vitamin d is good for old people. Yours says low and high levels are bad. Also, the order you get the less efficient your body is with converting vitamin d so to get higher levels you need to take more and more vitamin d so it would be hard to get to those higher levels in the blood at such older ages. And maybe the calcium issue rears its head more and they probably weren't given proportional vitamin k in the study either.

Treating people as outpatient isn't going to increase infections at hospitals, you have tons of clinics where this can be done or, you know, virtual visits. In the US, people are already funneled to the hospital even if they have a headache because of stupid policies. I work in a hospitals everyday, there's only a couple departments that even have covid patients. I walk through the ER almost daily, I'm not at all concerned about getting infected at work.

The vast vast vast majority of early treatment studies (zinc or no zinc) show beneficial results, it's standard of care in many places for a reason. Why wouldn't a drug be better (generally speaking) in early treatment? If something helps a bit (or quite a bit even), why would taking it late in the infection help much? Whereas early it might help enough to buy your body time to "figure it out" as it is literally brute-forcing the infection through trial and error, and buying time has definite importance. I've never claimed HCQ cures covid but helps slow it a little. Treating early is better than treating late for just about anything. I'm not flogging it as a miracle drug by any means or a prophylaxis, I've never said anything would work at stopping infections because of how tall an order that is. Nor would I think even a very safe drug is good to take for months or a year or however long one would need to take something to try to stop from getting infected, that just seems like a bad idea to take any drug for that purpose. My normal bias would be to find that it doesn't work since Trump boasted about it and Trump is a conman in my book. If you look back at the v1 forum, I said that remdesivir was likely better than HCQ, then I saw the data for both.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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And literally the 1st similar article linked below yours is this saying vitamin d is good for old people. Yours says low and high levels are bad.
Now do you see why I'm fed up posting you citations? You don't even seem to pay any attention to them.

Also, the order you get the less efficient your body is with converting vitamin d so to get higher levels you need to take more and more vitamin d so it would be hard to get to those higher levels in the blood at such older ages.
I have already made that point myself several times.

Treating people as outpatient isn't going to increase infections at hospitals, you have tons of clinics where this can be done or, you know, virtual visits. In the US, people are already funneled to the hospital even if they have a headache because of stupid policies.
Yes. People have been encouraged to go to the hospital for trivial reasons. So now they need to be discouraged because the hospital has bigger shit to deal with than people who will be fine with two paracetamol and a good night's sleep.

I work in a hospitals everyday.
... in IT.

The vast vast vast majority of early treatment studies (zinc or no zinc) show beneficial results, it's standard of care in many places for a reason.
We've already discussed this weeks ago. No, the overall picture of current research does not show that HCQ is effective.

What on earth is this weird emotional attachment people have to it?
 

Dalisclock

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Hey, remember the election thread, which went on forever because people kept trying to explain things to someone who'd just ignore any argument made? That was fun, perhaps we should do that again.
Banging your head against a brick wall in hopes the wall will eventually crack(and not your head) is fun, okay?

Oh, wait, that's Dark Souls. I have no idea how arguing with certain folk here is remotely useful or satisfying.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Now do you see why I'm fed up posting you citations? You don't even seem to pay any attention to them.



I have already made that point myself several times.



Yes. People have been encouraged to go to the hospital for trivial reasons. So now they need to be discouraged because the hospital has bigger shit to deal with than people who will be fine with two paracetamol and a good night's sleep.



... in IT.



We've already discussed this weeks ago. No, the overall picture of current research does not show that HCQ is effective.

What on earth is this weird emotional attachment people have to it?
How did I not pay attention to it? "A higher plasma 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration was associated with a reduced risk of all-cause mortality"

When did I say people should be going to the hospitals en masse? I said there's plenty of other places like clinics or virtual visits to get basic care to get a prescription and recommendations on what to take. I already said too many people are funneled to hospitals now because of stupid covid policies. Clinics are ghost towns here because if you got a headache, you're told to go to the main hospital.

I know what the departments are look like and how full or not full they are.

I don't have any emotional attachment to it. There's not a single early treatment study that has bad results out of 50+ of them.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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How did I not pay attention to it?
Because you just skipped over the paper saying that excessive vit D concentrations have negative outcomes and selected one that superficially says what you want instead. As normal. Because you have no idea how to read and interpret scientific literature, and no interest in doing so honestly even if you could.

There's not a single early treatment study that has bad results out of 50+ of them.
We literally discussed this just a few weeks ago.

Jesus. No wonder people say the modern internet era has had a negative effect on attention span and memory.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Because you just skipped over the paper saying that excessive vit D concentrations have negative outcomes and selected one that superficially says what you want instead. As normal. Because you have no idea how to read and interpret scientific literature, and no interest in doing so honestly even if you could.



We literally discussed this just a few weeks ago.

Jesus. No wonder people say the modern internet era has had a negative effect on attention span and memory.
It was literally the next article, I didn't skip anything, I read yours and clicked on the next one. The whole point is just because one study says something doesn't mean it's a complete answer. I said you need proper vitamin k to go along with vitamin d if you're taking a good amount of it. I posted articles about that already. You're still going on that you only need 400 IUs of vitamin d a day. How are you gonna say I can't look at scientific data honestly?

You cited a study about HCQ that didn't even meet your standards of being a good study since it had 200 hundred something patients. Every study I post is wrong, even though it has more patients and lower P values, and everything you post is right apparently.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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It was literally the next article, I didn't skip anything, I read yours and clicked on the next one. The whole point is just because one study says something doesn't mean it's a complete answer. I said you need proper vitamin k to go along with vitamin d if you're taking a good amount of it. I posted articles about that already.
The argument is that excessive vitamin D results in possible adverse effects. The fact that vitamin K and vitamin D have synergistic benefits (at reasonable doses) for health does not address whether vitamin K protects from excessive vitamin D consumption.

You're still going on that you only need 400 IUs of vitamin d a day.
400 IU supplements. As in additional to normal diet and sunlight.

You cited a study about HCQ that didn't even meet your standards of being a good study since it had 200 hundred something patients. Every study I post is wrong, even though it has more patients and lower P values, and everything you post is right apparently.
And there you go: you've just picked out only the point that you want again. I also said it's about methodology, trial design, etc.

And yes, that sort of shit does demonstrate you don't look at scientific data honestly.
 

McElroy

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Thinking about eliminating the spread of the virus? Too bad if others don't.

Best available information has nothing to do with people spreading it anyway. It's enough that a small part of the population is magnificently dumb and does it. The government striking down hard measures against covid? Even here with our small and authority-faithful population the politicians throw their hands in the air and let towns and regions deal with it how they see fit. And because they are too afraid to declare state of emergency they hurry extensions to the disease control law to make more restrictions legal.
 

Seanchaidh

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Fun fact: the number of Covid19 fatalities exceed the number of US military deaths during WWII.
to be fair, the US hardly suffered in that war compared to almost every other major participant.