2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)

Gethsemani

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Doesn't that one have the same(although rare) side effect as the astra zeneca vaccin; combination of trombosis and thrombocytopenia(low platelet)? I'd take a slight fever or headache over paralysis or death. It would kind of suck when you have a negligent risk of complications from infection with the virus and then die from an auto immune response to the vaccine. Pfizer and moderna seem safest so far.
Even if you're low risk with Covid-19 your risk of dying is about 1 in 4,000-5,000 (higher if you get the Brazilian or English strain). So far the trombosis side effect of the AZ and J&J vaccine is estimated between 10,000-100,000 with most estimates being about 1 in 50,000 or lower. Dying from a vaccine sucks, but taking the vaccine is much, much safer then contracting Covid is.
 

stroopwafel

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Even if you're low risk with Covid-19 your risk of dying is about 1 in 4,000-5,000 (higher if you get the Brazilian or English strain). So far the trombosis side effect of the AZ and J&J vaccine is estimated between 10,000-100,000 with most estimates being about 1 in 50,000 or lower. Dying from a vaccine sucks, but taking the vaccine is much, much safer then contracting Covid is.
When you give a vaccine to a healthy person who is very unlikely to get very sick from a covid infection then I don't think the risk of a potentially lethal side effect is acceptable when there are alternatives on the market that don't have that side effect.
 

tippy2k2

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Probably not a big deal considering how exceedingly rare the issue was (and even then it doesn't sound like they know it was J&J for sure or if it was J&J if this was just a case of extreme bad luck where it only happens in a handful of very specific cases) but they may halt the J&J shots for the time being and just what we need for the anti-vaxxing dum dums to scream about how they were right all along so no one should ever get vaccines for anything...
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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Probably not a big deal considering how exceedingly rare the issue was (and even then it doesn't sound like they know it was J&J for sure or if it was J&J if this was just a case of extreme bad luck where it only happens in a handful of very specific cases) but they may halt the J&J shots for the time being and just what we need for the anti-vaxxing dum dums to scream about how they were right all along so no one should ever get vaccines for anything...
At least it’s being reported and not swept under the rug, like the CDC seems to be attempting.


Wonder what they’ll say now. Look, I’m all for vaccines that have been thoroughly tested, but these COVID varieties clearly haven’t had the chance for that to happen yet, and this whole issue has unfortunately been mired in political bs which always makes things worse.
 
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stroopwafel

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At least it’s being reported and not swept under the rug, like the CDC seems to be attempting.


Wonder what they’ll say now. Look, I’m all for vaccines that have been thoroughly tested, but these COVID varieties clearly haven’t had the chance for that to happen yet, and this whole issue has unfortunately been mired in political bs which always makes things worse.
The CDC's intent is most likely to acquire herd immunity at the quickest possible opportunity so a 1 in 50-100k casualty rate is most likely acceptable to them. But looking at it objectively you give these adenovirus vaccines to someone who is healthy with very low risk of complications from a covid infection. So the criteria of 'rare side effect' shouldn't be the same as, say, a medication for a serious illness. Espescially not when those Mrna vaccines don't have that side effect in people(espescially women) under 60.

Though I could understand when they continue AZ/JJ vaccines for people under 60 who are at risk of complications from covid(obese, diabetic, high blood pressure, asthmatic etc) when alternatives aren't available and time is of the essence.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Here's the science on the blood clotting from the adenovirus vaccines (AstraZeneca / J&J). It's due to an immune response that creates antibodies against PF4 that causes blood clots. This response is very very very very rare so the odds of you getting this over dying from covid are usually less but in places like Australia where they basically squashed covid, it really doesn't make any sense especially in young people when they probably won't even get covid.

 

Gergar12

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Doesn't that one have the same(although rare) side effect as the astra zeneca vaccin; combination of trombosis and thrombocytopenia(low platelet)? I'd take a slight fever or headache over paralysis or death. It would kind of suck when you have a negligent risk of complications from infection with the virus and then die from an auto immune response to the vaccine. Pfizer and moderna seem safest so far.
The blood clots mostly occurred in women.

 

Phoenixmgs

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Chances of getting infected and needing hospitalization after vaccine: 1 in 194,444

Chances of dying from covid after vaccine: 1 in 1,040,540

There isn't absolutely NO RISK so you better get your variant booster shots!!!!!
 

Phoenixmgs

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Another great video talking about all the current "issues" with regards to the coronavirus. The video goes over how dumb the pausing of the vaccine was. Also, vaccine passports are really dumb as Dr. Prasad (@33:14) goes over a hypothetical situation of 2 movie theaters (one requiring a passport and one not including a passport) and how vaccinated people might be like 99.9990% safe in the non-passport theater while they are 99.9999% safe in the passport theater. You're not protecting anyone with these stupid passports, it makes no goddamn sense.


Dr. Zubin Damania is so sick of the stupid outdoor masking bullshit that he literally said the following in the video:
The idea that we still are required to wear masks outside makes me violently angry. Today I went hiking on my own trial, I did not bring a mask. If anyone was going to ask me about it, I was going to get in a fight with them. That's how at the end of my rope I am.

The CDC is always literally the last one to the party that already ended and that party was like last weekend. The CDC says vaccinated people can go outside without a mask today. NO FUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK. Outside was safe literally the entire time, there was never a need for masks outside.

Lastly, this study shows that covid immunity will almost certainly be long lasting. Pretty much every metric that we have to measure immunity has show all the metrics basically flat-lining like memory B cells and T cells, thus these type of cells are fading very very very very slowly, there's no downward slope basically so thinking immunity may end at say 6 months (the study was for 8 months BTW) or a year or 2 years has no data whatsoever backing that "theory" (aka news bullshit).
 

Phoenixmgs

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A year into this and the entire world still has this idiotic protocol [remdesiver and 6 milligrams of dexamethasone], which is ineffective in most. 6 milligrams of dexamethasone helps the few but fails the many. - Dr Pierre Kory

Wow, we knew what covid was (organizing pneumonia) before it even got here. The gold standard therapy for organizing pneumonia is corticosteroids. The RECOVERY Trial for steroids was a complete farce, 6 milligrams of dexamethasone is a "JOKE". To use an antiviral like remdesivir IN THE HOSPITAL is a "JOKE". It's not supposed to work in the hospital. There's no point in giving an anti-viral when the immune system cleared the virus. Doctors aren't allowed to just doctor anymore and they must wait on trials when patients are dying and they already know what to do after 4 patients. Also, steroids were known to work with both SARS and MERS yet doctors weren't allowed to use them.

 

Agema

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Will you please stop infecting this forum with the crankery of one-sided doctors/scientists as if it's the final word.

Pierre Kory is entitled to his opinion. Pierre Kory's opinion is not the same as truth.

Also, steroids were known to work with both SARS and MERS yet doctors weren't allowed to use them.
Pierre Kory's story in that video literally explains a scenario where doctors, including himself, were free and able to use steroids for covid-19 right from the start. Just like they were also able to hand out hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and all the other stuff that's been touted (nearly all of which doesn't work).

I suspect Kory has an ego the size of Jupiter: he does a great deal of boasting in that interview. This is what leads him to appear before political committees and make absurdly grandiose claims he doesn't have the evidence to back up. What annoys him about the RECOVERY trial is that it was able prove a case and get the credit, and he wasn't.
 

Eacaraxe

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Pierre Kory's story in that video literally explains a scenario where doctors, including himself, were free and able to use steroids for covid-19 right from the start. Just like they were also able to hand out hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and all the other stuff that's been touted (nearly all of which doesn't work).
A huge chunk of this, I've noticed, surrounds the problem of conflating administration as a post-exposure prophylaxis or treatment regime for mild to moderate symptoms, and palliative care for ARDS. I've noted more than a few studies that have gotten lost in the ruckus noting positive outcomes of the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin or doxycyline regime for patients suffering ARDS, but that's because it's an immunosuppressive regime and the patients were suffering from cytokine release syndrome.

The failure to make that distinction, coupled with the ludicrous media storm around it, was the problem. Not to mention doctors throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, then buying into the notion there were positive outcomes after administration, those positive outcomes were because of that administration, and not backing down from their positions when later studies have shown that not to be the case.
 

Agema

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A huge chunk of this, I've noticed, surrounds the problem of conflating administration as a post-exposure prophylaxis or treatment regime for mild to moderate symptoms, and palliative care for ARDS. I've noted more than a few studies that have gotten lost in the ruckus noting positive outcomes of the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin or doxycyline regime for patients suffering ARDS, but that's because it's an immunosuppressive regime and the patients were suffering from cytokine release syndrome.
Oh dear god. Please don't open that up again: HCQ is a bust, whether early or late. There are some supportive studies, but the best quality ones that matter most show otherwise.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Will you please stop infecting this forum with the crankery of one-sided doctors/scientists as if it's the final word.

Pierre Kory is entitled to his opinion. Pierre Kory's opinion is not the same as truth.



Pierre Kory's story in that video literally explains a scenario where doctors, including himself, were free and able to use steroids for covid-19 right from the start. Just like they were also able to hand out hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, and all the other stuff that's been touted (nearly all of which doesn't work).

I suspect Kory has an ego the size of Jupiter: he does a great deal of boasting in that interview. This is what leads him to appear before political committees and make absurdly grandiose claims he doesn't have the evidence to back up. What annoys him about the RECOVERY trial is that it was able prove a case and get the credit, and he wasn't.
And you have proof that Kory's opinion is not the truth? Your opinion (not a fact) is that his opinion is not the truth. You act like you know the truth and no one else does.

He literally has a different job now because he wasn't allowed to be a doctor at his old job... And he describes how his colleagues were hamstrung as to what they could do. There's tons of stories of doctors being scared to speak out about their thoughts about covid. Scientists and doctors can't even post their opinions on Youtube without it getting removed, that does not lead to healthy scientific debate.

I couldn't care less how big an ego someone has, it's the quality of their argument that I care about. It very much seems like he worked with his peers to figure "it" out. Some people are more boisterous than others (sometimes ego, sometimes not), he's obviously a more boisterous person than most. Attack his argument, not his person. For example, why would you give an anti-viral when the virus has already been cleared?

A huge chunk of this, I've noticed, surrounds the problem of conflating administration as a post-exposure prophylaxis or treatment regime for mild to moderate symptoms, and palliative care for ARDS. I've noted more than a few studies that have gotten lost in the ruckus noting positive outcomes of the hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin or doxycyline regime for patients suffering ARDS, but that's because it's an immunosuppressive regime and the patients were suffering from cytokine release syndrome.

The failure to make that distinction, coupled with the ludicrous media storm around it, was the problem. Not to mention doctors throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, then buying into the notion there were positive outcomes after administration, those positive outcomes were because of that administration, and not backing down from their positions when later studies have shown that not to be the case.
The worst aspect of it all was that all these proposed treatments have basically no risk to them, we have decades of data on their safety. Why shit on doctors for using them until you have definitive evidence that they in fact don't work (which we still don't have)? If I'm a patient, I want to be treated by what the doctor feels is the best course of action or what they've (and there colleagues) had the best results with when you have a new disease like this and we don't have decades of research to have definitive answers yet. We don't have definitive proof masks work, but you do it because it's better safe than sorry.
 

Eacaraxe

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Oh dear god. Please don't open that up again: HCQ is a bust, whether early or late. There are some supportive studies, but the best quality ones that matter most show otherwise.
The problem with statements like this are, while yes in the big picture you're correct, you're not addressing counter-arguments in a way that will prove effective. That's part of the root of how and why deeply-polarized issues never reach a point of advancement or resolution. "Some supportive studies" -- yes, that's why I said what I did. And, trying to minimize them isn't making them going away. At the end of the day, there are still studies that show these positive outcomes.

It's also approximately .2 percent of all COVID cases (the 5% that develop severe enough symptoms to require ICU case, and the 4% of those -- if I remember the stats right -- in which cytokine release syndrome manifests) for which that pharmaceutical regime is necessary or proper. This isn't a dichotomous position, in which the regime is a either a panacea or worse than a placebo. Is it necessary or useful for 99.8% of COVID cases? no, but I'm not speaking to that 99.8% of COVID cases, I'm speaking to the 0.2% of cases in which it is.
 

Agema

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The problem with statements like this are, while yes in the big picture you're correct, you're not addressing counter-arguments in a way that will prove effective.
Dude. This thread is 68 pages long and I wouldn't be surprised if half of them are me explaining the science of HCQ and covid-19. You are welcome to peruse at your leisure. It doesn't work.

What I really need to do to be effetive is create funky Youtube vids to sucker gullible ignorami, unfortunately I lack the time or inclination.
 

Agema

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I couldn't care less how big an ego someone has, it's the quality of their argument that I care about. It very much seems like he worked with his peers to figure "it" out.
On the one hand, Kory is supporting a treatment (steroids) that has adequately proven efficacy. On the other hand he is aggressively advocating a treatment that doesn't. A treatment that by his own words he has called a "wonder drug", despite having plainly inadequate evidence. He has, on one of the grandest stages imaginable, manifestly made claims he cannot defend. That is tackling his argument. Just to be clear here, one of his primary co-authors has written an article where he reviews ivermectin and cites debunked papers, which is not a sign of quality. His attack on the RECOVERY trial is basically bullshit. He's essentially complaining it is not an optimised treatment plan, but it never was an attempt to generate an optimised treatment plan. It was about measuring the basics of drug efficacy.

Kory quit his job because his institution did not like him claiming ineffective treatments were effective. His institution has a point, because doing so damages his and the institution's reputation, thus their patients' trust in their medical care and staff, and even worse endangers the public because they can then do stupid stuff like poisoning themselves with veterinary drugs. When he says "they" wouldn't let him do administer what he liked, he's not talking about faceless bureaucracy, he means the senior medical personnel at the hospital. Because doctors are actually not supposed to do whatever they please, they are supposed to work collaboratively and seek agreement and advice, otherwise loose cannons kill people. And the institution that hosts them is also going to be at least part liable.

If I'm a patient, I want to be treated by what the doctor feels is the best course of action or what they've (and there colleagues) had the best results...
Well, here's the thing: Kory's colleagues at his institution didn't agree with him - at least on ivermectin. Therefore he fails even by the standards you claim.
 
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Eacaraxe

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Dude. This thread is 68 pages long and I wouldn't be surprised if half of them are me explaining the science of HCQ and covid-19.
...and that statement is a direct counter to my meta-commentary how, exactly?
 

Catfood220

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A year into this and the entire world still has this idiotic protocol [remdesiver and 6 milligrams of dexamethasone], which is ineffective in most. 6 milligrams of dexamethasone helps the few but fails the many. - Dr Pierre Kory

Wow, we knew what covid was (organizing pneumonia) before it even got here. The gold standard therapy for organizing pneumonia is corticosteroids. The RECOVERY Trial for steroids was a complete farce, 6 milligrams of dexamethasone is a "JOKE". To use an antiviral like remdesivir IN THE HOSPITAL is a "JOKE". It's not supposed to work in the hospital. There's no point in giving an anti-viral when the immune system cleared the virus. Doctors aren't allowed to just doctor anymore and they must wait on trials when patients are dying and they already know what to do after 4 patients. Also, steroids were known to work with both SARS and MERS yet doctors weren't allowed to use them.
Last year I was diagnosed with a condition in my hands called Trigger Finger. When I was talking to my doctor about possible treatments, he mentioned having steriod injections into my hands. He wasn't keen on doing that because not only was it insanely painful, but steroids weaken the immune system and it was not a good idea in the middle of a pandemic. So that is probably why doctors aren't using steroids to treat Covid 19.