2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic (Vaccination 2021 Edition)

Phoenixmgs

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Again, you are completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding that study, because...


No, you don't evidently understand it was on viral clearance times, because you persist in calling it "shit and underpowered" despite it being both pretty well designed and sufficiently powered to have a good chance of finding a result.

The thing is, you keep claiming all these studies show a benefit of early HCQ. I have asked you before: if you did not get that view from that website, where did you get it from? Because you are completely wrong. I asked you over a half a dozen times where you got this idea from, and you refused to answer. You still refuse to answer. You are hiding something.


How many do you need?

It's not quantity, it's quality. The middle link there is a bad study (or at least not what I'm looking for). The 4 main studies aren't very good. 1st one had a rather high dosage for HCQ plus it was testing to see if HCQ group would have less infections. 2nd study was extremely underpowered with literally just 8 people testing positive for covid. 3rd study was for prophylaxis purposes. 4th study was for, again, trying to prevent infection. I never claimed prophylaxis would by a thing HCQ did nor would it reduce infections, IT'S NOT AN ANTIVIRAL. My claim is that HCQ will help prevent hospitalizations, not stop infections from occurring. 3rd link is about mortality with regards to HCQ, which features the Recovery and Solidarity trials, and I said you don't give HCQ to hospitalized patients just like you don't give steroids to people who just tested positive for covid either. Your statement the HCQ yields higher mortality is because all your sources include giving it to patients that shouldn't get it in the 1st place. What's the mortality for those getting HCQ EARLY and a PROPER dose vs those not getting anything early? Give me a study on that. The 1st link (BMJ) has a section for hospital admission but all the studies they reference for hospital admission literally provide no data for how many of each group (HCQ or control) needed to be hospitalized and the Egypt study is not available or removed.


Dude, you have literally no idea whether a study is good or bad, except some made-up garbage arbitrariness in your own head which approximates to "does it say what I want to believe?"
Giving someone a toxic dose of something is not a good study. Remember when you actually provided some legit data on remdesivir and I agreed with part of your argument then? Give me good data, isn't that what you do for a living?

This frankly bizarre trash isn't even worth dignifying with an explanation.
Don't blame me for your poor logic. You've still given me nothing on why you would vaccinated someone that already had covid (assuming they have a normal working immune system). You've just said covid is not chicken pox, therefore I'm smarter than you and I win. That's not an argument.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Oh, we should listen to experts in the relevant field. But more than that, we should look at the consensus among those experts. If you present a researcher who says XYZ, which is at odds with what 90% of researchers in the field are saying, is it really trusting the experts to buy into that fringe view?

Of course, most of the time you haven't actually provided experts in the relevant field. You've provided people like Makary, who is a surgeon with no professional epidemiological experience of note. You've provided those YouTubers, who have some level of broad medical experience, but not in Virology or epidemiology.

And when you actually do cite an expert, you dismiss their view as soon as it doesn't align with yours anyway. Like Makary, who endorsed vaccinating kids.
And scientific consensus is not really scientific consensus. Anyone that wasn't for the very most cautious thinking for covid was ostracized. Doctors did not want to speak up about any opinion that was against their institution. A video of experts saying kids don't need masks got removed off Youtube, which is far from some radical statement. Oh and by the way, Marty that you love so much and caution that you love so much, was for doing drastic things way before March 2020, he was trying to sound the alarm in January but that wasn't "scientific consensus" at the time. And waiting for the virus to be widespread in the US is the core reason why 600+K died instead of being another Australia. You do realize Marty is a professor of public health at John Hopkins right? He has a M.P.H. And what do you need in a time of a pandemic? Public health experts!!!

Marty hasn't endorsed vaccinating kids, he said it's probably going to be something we should do but the data isn't there. He's predicting it's the likely thing to happen just like I predicted the likeliness of the variants being bullshit or long-term immunity being likely, which you kept getting confused with taking the most optimistic view possible when it was just what was most likely to happen. There's literally no reason to vaccinate kids now, we don't even know what dose to give them. And by the time we do have kids (under 12) being allowed to get the vaccine, the benefit of vaccinating them all is going to be very small because if you haven't noticed covid just keeps dropping and dropping. Vaccinating them against the flu would actually save more lives than vaccinating them against covid at that point. You do know public health is ALL HEALTH not just covid right?
 
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Agema

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Wow, that link has really poor information in it linking to really underpowered studies (for or against) vitamin d.
Wow! Are you finally fucking get it? Yes, the evidence in this is really poor: BECAUSE THAT IS THE STATE OF THE EVIDENCE. That is what the whole article is about: there is no adequate case whatsoever for Vit D being any use for covid (assuming someone is not Vit D deficient).


Your own source never said 4 days was the average.
I cited two sources, one of which explicitly stated a median of four days. For you to pick the other one and claim "my source" (singular) never said 4 days is just dishonest. That one says 33% admitted to hospital within 3 days, which is consistent with the other study finding a median of 4 days.

How the fuck is this a strawman? I literally agreed with what you said. I remember the our discussion points.
Ivermectin is not banned.
 

Agema

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It's not quantity, it's quality. The middle link there is a bad study (or at least not what I'm looking for). The 4 main studies aren't very good. 1st one had a rather high dosage for HCQ plus it was testing to see if HCQ group would have less infections. 2nd study was extremely underpowered with literally just 8 people testing positive for covid. 3rd study was for prophylaxis purposes. 4th study was for, again, trying to prevent infection.
And this is why you are full of shit. It's not just the fact that you're pulling complaints about studies you don't really understand out of your arse, it's that you've only turned on some facsimile of critical analysis for the studies going against you. Had you employed the same skepticism in the first place at the mass of frankly terrible positive HCQ studies (that even now you either cannot or will not scrutinise to realise their overall awfulness), you'd never have deluded yourself it did any good in the first place.

Unfortunately, you did delude yourself. And rather than do the logical thing of backing down in the face of superior evidence, you're still here trying to prop up that delusion. You're really doing this for ego, because a) you've invested so much in trying to argue it does anything that you don't want to admit all that time and effort was wasted, b) you're clearly very proud of yourself (constantly boasting about being right all the time) and you don't want that spoiled and c) the oppositional nature of debate makes you too proud to admit defeat to the "enemy" (i.e. everyone else in this thread).

I never claimed prophylaxis would by a thing HCQ did nor would it reduce infections, IT'S NOT AN ANTIVIRAL.
Oh yes you did claim it was an antiviral, even if you did not realise that was what you were doing. This is what I am pointing out to you.

It might in fact be an antiviral - at least for some viruses, and at high enough doses. Evidence suggests that it has insufficient antiviral activity against SARS-CoV-2, though. There is a actually a paper somewhere speculating why it might not be effective against SARS-CoV-2 - something to do with pH and lysosomes if I remember rightly.

Let's also bring back the fundamental problem (already pointed out some weeks/months ago) here that you claim that HCQ is not an antiviral, yet you are proposing it is clinically useful in a phase of the disease where it would be beneficial because it is an antiviral! You have a fundamental mismatch between your claims about its mechanism of action and its clinical use. Which you would realise if you actually understood what was going on.

My claim is that HCQ will help prevent hospitalizations, not stop infections from occurring. 3rd link is about mortality with regards to HCQ, which features the Recovery and Solidarity trials, and I said you don't give HCQ to hospitalized patients just like you don't give steroids to people who just tested positive for covid either. Your statement the HCQ yields higher mortality is because all your sources include giving it to patients that shouldn't get it in the 1st place. What's the mortality for those getting HCQ EARLY and a PROPER dose vs those not getting anything early? Give me a study on that. The 1st link (BMJ) has a section for hospital admission but all the studies they reference for hospital admission literally provide no data for how many of each group (HCQ or control) needed to be hospitalized and the Egypt study is not available or removed.
And the evidence does not support your claim, but you are not willing or capable of assessing the body of literature to come to a reasonable conclusion. See above.

Giving someone a toxic dose of something is not a good study.
It is if that's the dose needed for an adequate therapeutic response.

Don't blame me for your poor logic. You've still given me nothing on why you would vaccinated someone that already had covid (assuming they have a normal working immune system). You've just said covid is not chicken pox, therefore I'm smarter than you and I win. That's not an argument.
Dude, it's not poor logic to point out the sheer irrationality of assuming that what goes for one disease goes for another. They are different diseases with different circumstances therefore requiring different public health strategies.

Also, there's a recent preprint come out that suggests immunity - at least in a substantial minority individuals - might be substantially weaker or less long-lasting than we might hope and they are particularly more susceptible to variants, thus reinforcing the idea that vaccination is a good idea even for those who have been infected. Just to point out this matter is far less settled and certain than you want to present it as with your over-optimistic assessments: that's why scientists are still studying this.
 

Silvanus

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And scientific consensus is not really scientific consensus. Anyone that wasn't for the very most cautious thinking for covid was ostracized. Doctors did not want to speak up about any opinion that was against their institution. A video of experts saying kids don't need masks got removed off Youtube, which is far from some radical statement.
What I'm reading here is that medical institutions distanced themselves from individual figures who were advocating incautious approaches. That's to be expected, and doesn't blow a hole in the notion of consensus. Consensus is represented by the positions of the institutions that represent the vast majority of researchers in the field. If individuals are promoting stuff that the institution feels is untrue, then it's entirely expected and right that they distance themselves.


Oh and by the way, Marty that you love so much and caution that you love so much, was for doing drastic things way before March 2020, he was trying to sound the alarm in January but that wasn't "scientific consensus" at the time. And waiting for the virus to be widespread in the US is the core reason why 600+K died instead of being another Australia. You do realize Marty is a professor of public health at John Hopkins right? He has a M.P.H. And what do you need in a time of a pandemic? Public health experts!!!
An M.P.H.

So, a Master's Degree. You know that's not that rare, right? Several friends of mine have Master's Degrees, but I wouldn't be citing them as major influential figures in their field.

His professional working life, from his residency onwards, has almost entirely been surgical.
 

Chimpzy

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So I finally got the letter for when I can go in for my vac shots. Anyway, seems I'm getting Pfizer. First shot next wednesday. Second one late July.

About time. Basically everyone I know irl already got it. Most already got the 2nd shot.

How is everyone for theirs?
 

Thaluikhain

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How is everyone for theirs?
I live in Australia. I'm not a politician, or an Olympic athlete. Maybe by the end of the year?

EDIT: Seniors have gotten one of two shots already, though.

As an aside, went in for flu vaccine today, and the nurse had a lot to say about official guidelines for covid vaccines being changed with no notice, and announced to the public before healthcare workers were informed.
 

Chimpzy

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I live in Australia. I'm not a politician, or an Olympic athlete. Maybe by the end of the year?

EDIT: Seniors have gotten one of two shots already, though.

As an aside, went in for flu vaccine today, and the nurse had a lot to say about official guidelines for covid vaccines being changed with no notice, and announced to the public before healthcare workers were informed.
Ah, sounds like they're doing a spiffy job then. Just for reference, have your bigwigs made any statements on when vaccination should be complete? Fyi, in our case it was supposed to wrap up by mid June, but late september to oktober would be the safer bet, tho from the sound of it, it'll take a fair bit longer still over in your neck of the woods.
 

Thaluikhain

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Just for reference, have your bigwigs made any statements on when vaccination should be complete?
Yes, quite a few. Satire sites are making the same jokes about the rollout of vaccine announcements for all Australians.

Having said that, covid hasn't hit Australia that hard, in part because the response was mostly a state, not federal, matter.
 

Baffle

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How is everyone for theirs?
Had the first a about six weeks ago, and my appointment for my second has been brought forward by three weeks to the end of this month (I'm 40, so I'm in the age group they want double-jabbed before the end of 'lockdown').
 

Agema

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Had the first a about six weeks ago, and my appointment for my second has been brought forward by three weeks to the end of this month (I'm 40, so I'm in the age group they want double-jabbed before the end of 'lockdown').
Getting my second jab on Thursday. And I had Covid-19 (not proven but very high likelihood) early April 2020.

I say very likely because my wife has definitely had it before August 2020 (antibody test), and the chance I didn't therefore has to be extraordinarily low. She had the appropriate symptoms end of March and I lost much of my taste/smell for a few days shortly after. She almost certainly got it early because she works in a hospital.
 

bluegate

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So I finally got the letter for when I can go in for my vac shots. Anyway, seems I'm getting Pfizer. First shot next wednesday. Second one late July.

About time. Basically everyone I know irl already got it. Most already got the 2nd shot.

How is everyone for theirs?
Roughly in the same boat as you actually, first shot on 23-6, second shot on 28-7.
 

Chimpzy

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Roughly in the same boat as you actually, first shot on 23-6, second shot on 28-7.
Spookular, those are the same dates. Don't tell me at 14:12h as well. .... wait a minute, are you me?
 

davidmc1158

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So I finally got the letter for when I can go in for my vac shots. Anyway, seems I'm getting Pfizer. First shot next wednesday. Second one late July.

About time. Basically everyone I know irl already got it. Most already got the 2nd shot.

How is everyone for theirs?
Got both of my shots last month because I am considered in a relatively high-risk group. Mine was the Moderna shot. The first one just made my arm ache for a couple of days. Got the second shot on a Saturday and I made a pretty strong attempt at sleeping through Sunday because of the bleagh. Was pretty much back to normal by Monday.
 

Gethsemani

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Getting my second jab on Thursday. And I had Covid-19 (not proven but very high likelihood) early April 2020.

I say very likely because my wife has definitely had it before August 2020 (antibody test), and the chance I didn't therefore has to be extraordinarily low. She had the appropriate symptoms end of March and I lost much of my taste/smell for a few days shortly after. She almost certainly got it early because she works in a hospital.
The irony is that I work in a PICU/Psychiatric ER and throughout the pandemic we've had two confirmed cases on the ward and maybe half the staff has had Covid-19. Pretty much everyone around me in my private life has had Covid-19 at this point except for me, who meet a bunch of strangers every day. I also got my second jab two weeks ago so it seems I'm one of the lucky ones.
 

Bob_McMillan

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I was really expecting to be vaccinated next year, but I was able to get my first dose. Sinovac, not the greatest option out there obviously, but I'll take what I can get. Our family's Moderna doses were delayed by a whole half year, which is the length of the time they say is needed before you can get another vaccine, so I guess it all worked out in the end.

It is sad though that the only reason my family and I could get vaccinated was because of people's huge vaccine hesitancy over here. Our local government basically said "Fuck the priority system" and just started giving shots to anyone who showed up, because that's how many doses we have just lying around. It's about 40% distrust in Chinese made vaccines, 60% distrust in vaccines in general. Hoooo boy did the current administration completely fuck our healthcare.