285: Hard-Earned Victories

Chris Plante

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Hard-Earned Victories

Super Meat Boy may not teach us heady life lessons, but it does edify a core value: Victory is hard-fought.

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Mister Benoit

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Haven't played in a bit but i've completed ~230 levels on SMB including Cotton Valley & "The Kid" Warp zone, although by all means most Dark World levels and "-" levels are harder.

I spent ~4 hours getting "The Kid". I was playing non-stop and my gf was just doing thing around the house. The last level took me the longest, probably because my thumbs were sore and my eyes were burnt from being focused for so long. My gf was able to watch Space Jam all the while I was constantly dieing from the flying spikes, eventually the movie was over, she was passed out and I was getting frustrated. I said to myself "Alright one last go", and then I made it. That feeling was absolutely awesome, it's like I'd been holding my breath for the past 4 hours and finally got to breath.
 

Onyx Oblivion

Borderlands Addict. Again.
Sep 9, 2008
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Nothing like a good challenge, is there?

But I can't stand the die, die, die, die, die challenge of games like Super Meat Boy and Megaman for more than a few hours. I like it enough to buy the game, but it ends up being a wasted purchase since I never see it through to the end. Generally only beat half the levels. I've never even whomped wily in any Megaman game yet.

I prefer the challenge of games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta.
 

AngryMongoose

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Jan 18, 2010
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Prolly not what I should be focusing on, but, "Next-Gen"? So The ps2 and NGC are Current Gen still?

What I've noticed about Super Meat Boy, is the only time it really frustrates me is when I only just miss an easy jump right at the end of a hard level. Since the game chucks you back into the fray immediately, I never have time to be frustrated. Not like as.... trying to get the International A license of GT2. Broke two controllers on that.
 

veloper

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Jan 20, 2009
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Supermeatboy is an excellent example of doing hard challenges right.

The controls are responsive, so you're fighting the levels and not the interface.
The levels are small and can be finished in a seconds, so you get to retry without much hassle when you fail, which helps you learn from your mistakes and improve your game.
The difficulty ramps up gradually, helping weaker players to get used to the game.

It's great to see an article in the Escapist mag that goes against the casual, story, cinematic, arty fart opinion.
 

subject_87

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Jul 2, 2010
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Hey, good to see Super Meat Boy get a shout-out like this.

I like that nothing is given to you on a silver platter, and moreso, it's your own fault whenever you die; it's always because you misjudged a jump, or messed up the timing, pretty much never a problem with the game. If a game's challenge is based around trying to get the controls to work rather than actual skill, it's doing something wrong.
 

comadorcrack

The Master of Speilingz
Mar 19, 2009
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Super meat boy was pretty fun at the begining. Then It started getting a bit lame.

I'm never one to shy away from a challenge. I've made Battletoads and the first 9 mega man games my ***** on several occasions. I've beaten ever Mario platformer too many times to count and I've beaten ever pokemon game using only that regions version of Ratatta.

But super meat boy just stops being fun after a while... Yes it still has that element of cathartic YES! when a level is beat, but it the level design isn't just tough. Its nonsensical... Traps and instant deaths are always on full display, but the controls are very sloppy in my opinion and lead to you just sliding into a saw.

The reason SMB will never be as good as Megaman or Mario is because while there was alot of challenge in these games, they were always fair. Your control over the character was always perfect so deaths were your fault. there was always a pattern to things and the challenge was learning that, not fighting the controls. I died more often because meat boy would just move into random places, than my actual input.

Its a pretty fun game at points and worth getting at the price it is now on steam... just... Get Megaman if you want to get a hard earned challenge....
 

tautologico

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Apr 5, 2010
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comadorcrack said:
The reason SMB will never be as good as Megaman or Mario is because while there was alot of challenge in these games, they were always fair. Your control over the character was always perfect so deaths were your fault. there was always a pattern to things and the challenge was learning that, not fighting the controls. I died more often because meat boy would just move into random places, than my actual input.
We must be playing different games, then, or using different kinds of controls. Because I wouldn't say meat boy ever moved into random places when I was playing.
 

veloper

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tautologico said:
comadorcrack said:
The reason SMB will never be as good as Megaman or Mario is because while there was alot of challenge in these games, they were always fair. Your control over the character was always perfect so deaths were your fault. there was always a pattern to things and the challenge was learning that, not fighting the controls. I died more often because meat boy would just move into random places, than my actual input.
We must be playing different games, then, or using different kinds of controls. Because I wouldn't say meat boy ever moved into random places when I was playing.
He's probably upset about super meatboy having a momentum and won't stop dead when you let go of the button.
 

tautologico

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Apr 5, 2010
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veloper said:
tautologico said:
comadorcrack said:
The reason SMB will never be as good as Megaman or Mario is because while there was alot of challenge in these games, they were always fair. Your control over the character was always perfect so deaths were your fault. there was always a pattern to things and the challenge was learning that, not fighting the controls. I died more often because meat boy would just move into random places, than my actual input.
We must be playing different games, then, or using different kinds of controls. Because I wouldn't say meat boy ever moved into random places when I was playing.
He's probably upset about super meatboy having a momentum and won't stop dead when you let go of the button.
Yes, I thought about that. But the controls are precise, in the sense that once you get used to them, meat boy's movements are predictable. Other playable characters have different movement characteristics, so you can try to pick another character if you don't like meat boy's movement style.
 

Solidplasma

Statistical Improbability
Aug 5, 2009
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Super Meat Boy is one if my favorite games, and I love seeing it get this kind of exposure. I don't know why comadorcrack thinks the controls are bad; most people agree they are just about the most responsive controls in any platform game. Super Meat Boy isn't unfair; it's really, really hard. That's why it's so much more satisfying to beat a level, and save a replay to show to your friends. It takes the essence of a platform game, and perfects it. That's why it's so great: it doesn't need gimmicks. Just fantastic level design. Though the kick-ass soundtrack doesn't hurt either.
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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Chris Plante said:
Hard-Earned Victories

Super Meat Boy may not teach us heady life lessons, but it does edify a core value: Victory is hard-fought.

Read Full Article
This is the axis upon which gaming can turn one way or the other--the way it instructs the player to handle failure.

On one hand, people who are unable to handle failure will be unable to learn. A player's failures within a game can spur them on into increasing their own ability--taking a task that was once impossible and turning into one that is easy. It's good for the player, it's good for the game, and it's good for the state of the medium itself. This path leads to games as something more than just "entertainment." Games can challenge the player, catalyze growth, and breed a sense of self-esteem that is firmly rooted in self-efficacy.

On the other hand, people tend not to tolerate any discomfort in their entertainment. They know what they like--they like what they know. Just having a bad guy is enough of a "challenge," so there's no need to make him difficult. If you make the game difficult, well, now it's like work or something. Don't get me wrong--there's such a thing as making a game "too hard," or more accurately making a game in which the gameplay doesn't adequately teach you the skills you need to meet the challenges ahead.

But we've been going to the other extreme. Making "cozy" games in which you can't really fail. Success is a matter of time, not effort. And as long as a handful of publishers are willing to make games like this, dumbed down to the point of being simple light-and-sound-diversions, they're handicapping the medium. If players have countless "easy" games that are visually pleasing and give them neat little achievements, there's no reason for them to endure the challenge of other games.

And nowadays? There are thousands of games available at every moment. It's not like the "old days," where you played Mario because that's what was out. With too many options available, players have lost sight of the need to see a challenge through to the end. Why climb the wall when there's a ladder to the right? Or a door to the left? Or a path around it? When so many easier options present themselves, there's no reason to take the more challenging one... despite the fact that it will make you better. Not just at the game, but as a person.

If we're going to move games out of the "fun distraction" category and into something greater as a medium (it doesn't have to be "art," by the way), we need to create games that elevate and engage the player, not just entertain them. This means striking a balance between:

1. "Too casual." Farmville is a good one. There's no challenge. No opposition. Click, click, click. Come back in a few hours. Click, click, click. And you "win!" What exactly did you accomplish? Who cares? The game says I win! It rewards only the investment of time and money, with no mental effort required.

2. "Too hardcore." Some games really are harder than they need to be. A small group of people like it that way, because it allows them to feel "elite." They fight for more games to be built in such an exclusive way... without realizing that, by doing so, they will cut off their own air supply. New players won't be able to break into that "elite" club, so they'll fall back into the "too casual" scene. And they'll become the majority. And the majority rules.

We need games that have challenge. Real challenge. Tasks that require you to improve yourself, as a gamer, thinker, or whatever. We also need those games to provide the equipment a player will need to meet those challenges. The game has to scale that challenge, giving the player time and opportunity to learn the in-game skills they'll need for the tasks ahead of them. We can't keep making "casual games" and "hardcore games." And no one wants to make games in that "in between" zone, because they'll tend to appeal to one side or the other anyway, but run the risk of alienating that audience by being to "moderate."

We need games that act as a bridge. Games that have the buy-in of a casual game, eventually guiding a player to the challenge of a hardcore game. (Of course, we could discuss at length what actually constitutes "challenge" in some of these games, but that's another topic!)
 

Mister Benoit

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comadorcrack said:
But super meat boy just stops being fun after a while... Yes it still has that element of cathartic YES! when a level is beat, but it the level design isn't just tough. Its nonsensical... Traps and instant deaths are always on full display, but the controls are very sloppy in my opinion and lead to you just sliding into a saw.

The reason SMB will never be as good as Megaman or Mario is because while there was alot of challenge in these games, they were always fair. Your control over the character was always perfect so deaths were your fault. there was always a pattern to things and the challenge was learning that, not fighting the controls. I died more often because meat boy would just move into random places, than my actual input.

Its a pretty fun game at points and worth getting at the price it is now on steam... just... Get Megaman if you want to get a hard earned challenge....
Sloppy controls? I thought the controls were incredibly responsive. I think just about every reviewer has mentioned how spot on the controls are. I hope your just taking the piss.

Are you referring to the newgrounds "Meat Boy"? Have you played using a controller?
 

Wolfram23

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I'm not into platforming games, really. But I agree with the article on challenge = rewarding experience.

Demon's Souls is my favorite example of it. Just watch Zero Punctuation [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1321-Demons-Souls] review of it. The game is brutally punishing, and epically rewarding.

-SL135 Knight, NG++, 120+ hours.
 

Manicotti

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Apr 10, 2009
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Fantastic article. I was gifted SMB just yesterday and I love it to (repeated, messy, spattery) death, and I think this is why. Thanks for articulating it so well.
 

Outright Villainy

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Well I haven't played super meat boy yet, but by God did I enjoy VVVVVV. The simple thrill of finishing a particularly difficult section, dying dozens of times, which in the end takes seconds. It's immensely satisfying.

However, when looking at old school games, high difficulty annoys me a lot more, and for one simple reason: A lack of checkpoints.

I found super mario world immensely frustrating because of it. I'd get through 3-4 levels without dying, then die a few times in the dungeon, sending me back to the levels I know I can do again. Perhaps it's just me, but I'm willing to bet a lot of gamers would accept more difficult challenges if you didn't have to repeat sections preceding it. Perhaps it would be a bit of a copout if every difficult game could only be enjoyable in this way, but it's a very difficult balance.

F-zero Gx has been the only game thusfar where I enjoyed the "Hold your nerve" style difficulty; it was fair, and I had a reasonable chance of getting it on my first go, in spite of it's difficulty. It also had short n stupidly hard bits too, which were also great. It's a paradigm of a challenging game for me.
 

Snotnarok

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I think Super Meat Boy is up there with the classics of Sonic, Mario and the like, it's damn addictive, damn mean and damn fun.
 

Jim Grim

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These two ideas can co-exist you know. Some games can be challenging, and others created so that anyone can reach the end of the narrative. Sure, one group might outsell the other by a huge margin, but that doesn't mean the other group will necessarily be completely wiped out.