213: Roleplaying: Evolved

[Gildan Bladeborn]

Levels and stats are awesome, and you can take them away from me when you pry them from my cold, dead hands. Without any form of progression, no matter where your character ostensibly starts out, what you have is a plateau. That can be fine in certain game types, but you can find "gradual increase in player power" in just about every genre of gaming, even if explicit statistics are omitted.

Meta-gaming for life!

 

[Pinstar]

"Bang, you're dead!"
"Nu uhh, I dodged it"
"Did not!"
"Did to!"
-Cops and Robbers, early childhood.

Stats are there for a reason. Primarily tied to combat. The only deviation I can see is jump to Boolean type stats "Can climb, can't climb". But then you get to the unstoppable force vs. Immovable object paradox when two characters with the appropriate skills try to oppose each other.

 

[Suraknar]

Nice article, and I would like to attempt to answer this question in it:

"But why do they continue to thrust numerical values for Strength and Levels in our faces?"

I think because the message was lost in the translation.

Somewhere along the line in the process of porting the RPG from one medium to another, someone misunderstood the purpose of the numbers and why these are there, establishing a trend that many players now can;t live without and it is inconceivable for some that a game, and RPG, could exist in the computer without Strength and Levels.

But lets ask ourselves something here - and specially those that have played Pen and Paper games - when you gather with your friends every now and then to play a pen & paper RPG game, do you do it because you are looking forward to the next Adventure or because you want to Level your Characters?

In my experience, it is the prospect of the Adventure itself that intices people to gather and have fun.

I never heard any of my Pen & Paper gaming friends say "Hey guys lets please play this Saturday afternoon, because I want to level my character"...

On the other hand, I often hear my Computer game friends say "We need to gather up and play together tonight because I am very close to leveling".

Hence, this is why, I believe somewhere along the line, the message got lost, and Computer RPG's, even mainstream MMORPG's, are nothing more than a single minded quest that revolves around leveling one's character (be it it through Character Levels, Its Gold or its Gear)...as the actual fun of Adventuring with others in a fantastic world, got left out of the design.

 

[Alex_P]

"Bang, you're dead!"
"Nu uhh, I dodged it"
"Did not!"
"Did to!"
-Cops and Robbers, early childhood.

Stats are there for a reason. Primarily tied to combat.

All game mechanics should be there for a reason, yes. In a tabletop RPG, "I shot you!"/"No you didn't!" isn't the real reason to have stats, though.

The only deviation I can see is jump to Boolean type stats "Can climb, can't climb". But then you get to the unstoppable force vs. Immovable object paradox when two characters with the appropriate skills try to oppose each other.

In a video game, you've got a pretty rich ability to involve the player in real-time decision-making. Do you need to know who's the strongest when you can actually let the player dodge and parry and attack for his character in real time? (Or in a lightweight turn-based structure with rock-paper-scissors-style simultaneous actions, if you prefer.)

Putting a lot of decision-making into character creation and "level-up" time tends to detract from the variety of tactical decision-making in play. Some games even abuse these kinds of long-term reward system to distract their players from how tedious or shallow the moment-to-moment gameplay can be. (And we're seeing that kind of grindsome stuff expand into other genres, so I'd really love to see someone really, really challenge the idea that it's necessary for an RPG.)

-- Alex

 

[Dreyfuss]

The real problem isn't stats in RPGs, it's people that think they can make a better game of a certain genre by making it a different genre. F- off. You're not talking about improving RPGs, you're talking about making RPGs something completely different. Zelda is NOT an RPG, it has always been labeled what it is: an adventure game. Note that there is a difference between point-and-click adventure and just adventure. These days EVERY damn game has some kind of "rpg element" in it. It's getting out of hand. Technically EVERY game is an RPG because RPG means role playing game and you're always playing some kind of role.

It's simple, RPGs aren't defined by the fact they have stories, or parties, they're defined like every other game genre ever: by how they play. RPGs have stats, end of story. jRPGs have a lot of menus in battles, wRPGs typically have top-down views and open-ended gameplay, though the view can be changed, like Bethesda's turds-in-a-box games. Bioware makes wRPGs, Bethesda makes turds and calls them RPGs. Games like Zelda are adventure games, like Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, Jak & Daxter, or the old Banjo-Kazooie games, because they're less linear than aRPGs, and have less stats. Some would argue Banjo-Kazooie is a platformer, but platformers focus more on actual platforming, like the recent 'Splosion Man, or Mirror's Edge. Back to RPGs, you also have aRPGs, action RPGs like the Seiken Densetsu (Mana) series and Kingdom Hearts. And finally there's sRPGs, strategy RPGs like Front Mission, FFTactics, and Disgaea and all NIS's many other games. And that's just RPGs and RPG-like genres, there's way, way more genres than that, people just need to pay more attention to their language and stop being so vague. And people also need to stop trying to make a game something it isn't. As soon as you get your RPG without stats it'll no longer be an RPG. In fact we already have tons of those, you just need to get out of your hole.

 

[Alex_P]

Bioware makes wRPGs, Bethesda makes turds and calls them RPGs. Games like Zelda are adventure games, like Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, Jak & Daxter, or the old Banjo-Kazooie games, because they're less linear than aRPGs, and have less stats.

Bioware's latest offerings have:
Jade Empire -- no classes, three stats that just set how much health/mana/bullet-time you have, and a bunch of skills that you boost as you gain levels, no real equipment beyond bonus-granting jewel thingies
Mass Effect -- classes, no stats, a bunch of skills that you boost as you gain levels, a monster-leveling system that negates the weapon-leveling system
But they're still Real True Honest RPGs because...?

-- Alex

 

[Nannernade]

Don't get rid of statistics in RPG's it is what makes an RPG an RPG, the statistics provide choice if you're not some idiot who thinks only of gaining levels to become "the best in the game" that's not the point to leveling, with the stats you choose how you fit into the game's world and how successful you become while experiencing that choice. Now I have a feeling people will probably tell me duh or something like that but I found it kind of hard to follow along with the article it was a little well windbagged which really dragged me away from whatever he was saying... so this is basically just my best interpretation of what he was trying to say... or providing a good arguement why RPG's should keep statistics.

 

[adledog]

Thats great and all and ill admit that character strength doesnt have to be measured in numbers, but this article doesnt give any kind of alternative idea. It just says numbers arent the best and leaves it at that. If they arent the best, whats a better system? And personally, I would love not to have numbers because numbers are relative to the game that youre playing. the main reason i love rpgs is that they really give you a sense of investment in your character. The more time you put in trying to make them the best they can be, the more you see that they are becoming stronger. If a game can show growth without numbers, that would be a much better rpg system. Although its barely a rpg, i think crackdown started to go a little bit into what im talking about. It did show what level your at, but every time you upgraded your agility skill you could feel it in gameplay. After upgrading it became obvious that you were running faster and jumping higher, and a system like that really draws you in because you see that your improving, not just being told that. At least thats my opinion and please feel free to disagree with/poke holes in my explanation=]

 

[BloodSquirrel]

Dear god, this is a poorly written article.

First off, chimps didn't become people. We share a common ancestor. L2TheTheoryofEvolution.

Second off, stats are an important part of the game. They're not a distraction, they're a puzzle to be optimized. If anything, developers need to pay more attention to stats. They're also a way customize your character, which is a cornerstone of RPGs.

Stats change the way we experience a game. A Fallout 3 character with high speech will experience different things than one with no speech. Mass Effect plays very differently if you pick biotics rather than being a soldier.

I don't really see how this article is calling for anything more than the dumbing down of RPGs. Maybe if you had an actual idea on what to replace them with, this article would be less of a joke.

 

[Dreyfuss]

Bioware's latest offerings have:
Jade Empire -- no classes, three stats that just set how much health/mana/bullet-time you have, and a bunch of skills that you boost as you gain levels, no real equipment beyond bonus-granting jewel thingies
Mass Effect -- classes, no stats, a bunch of skills that you boost as you gain levels, a monster-leveling system that negates the weapon-leveling system
But they're still Real True Honest RPGs because...?

-- Alex

Actually I was talking about NWN and KotOR. JE and ME are more like aRPGs. JE is very light on the RPG elements but ME is definitely an RPG with aiming. The weapons aren't static, they're based on stats and skills tied to your character in a way that's deeper than selecting a few perks in a game like CoD4. I'd say it's right on the border of RPG territory and is a hybrid game. Anyway, what I really meant by that though was that Bioware is typically considered a wRPG developer, and they make good games, and meanwhile Bethesda makes tripe with boring combat and cardboard characters. Sandboxes aren't fun when all the toys are broken.

 

[Le_Lisra]

No, no, no.

Bad direction in my opinion. It would not be evolution. I like all that stuff.. some say that roleplaying shouldn't be a cross between dragon-slaying, statistics and accounting but I disagree. I like the combination of statistics and easy gameplay that the Baldur's Gate series (and later IWD and NWN). If this stuff gets cut out it wouldn't be an RPG anymore, at least for me.

Though that might be a terrible mistake to say:

Simplifying is for console players.

(Yes, I also think the more easy-to-use system in Dragon Age was a dire mistake)

 

[Alex_P]

Since this thread's back on top of the pile...

Mass Effect 2. The only thing you get from "leveling" is skill points. Base stats like health and damage improve a bit through upgrades but don't creepy up continually like in other games. Only four different skills per party member is a bit limiting, but, beyond that, nothing of values was lost.

I'm happy to see Bioware put the boots to pointless scaling numbers and I hope they keep doing it.

-- Alex