World of Goo Creator: "XBLA's Health Is Actually Flagging"

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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World of Goo Creator: "XBLA's Health Is Actually Flagging"


Ron Carmel, co-creator of the indie hit World of Goo offers up some grim statistics regarding Xbox Live Arcade developers.

According to his blog [http://2dboy.com/2011/10/03/xbla/], nearly half of the hundred-or-so indie developers Carmel questioned described working with Microsoft as "excruciating." Not just "difficult," you understand. "Excruciating," a word typically used to describe a shattered knee-cap, or particularly long episodes of Songs of Praise. Considering that "ease of working with the platform owner" was voted the most important factor in terms of platform choice by the same respondents, that doesn't bode well. Carmel suggests that Microsoft's notoriously non-developer-friendly policies are the reason indie developers are defecting to competing services such as PSN, Steam and the iTunes App store, and that this loss of talent is weakening the service.

The developers who responded to Carmel's census are only responsible for 33 of XBLA's 400-plus games, but Carmel argues that they represent the cream of the crop. The developers surveyed are responsible for three of the top five highest rated XBLA titles, 76% of their games have a Metascore of 75 or higher compared to only 31% of the non-polled developers' games, and, on average, games from these developers sell around 4.6 times as well as their non-polled counterparts. Yet, despite their success on the platform, Microsoft is losing these developers to PSN, as demonstrated by the very exciting graph in the top right there, which shows how many of the polled developers are developing games for each platform.

Carmel goes onto highlight the issues he believes are driving these developers away. He called Microsoft's boilerplate distribution contract for XBLA the "most exploitative, one-sided distribution contract [he']s seen," and points out that "we [the developers] each waste months of our time and Microsoft's time negotiating the same stuff out of the contract, over, and over again." He then blasts Microsoft's Technical Certification Requirements, arguing that they make releasing, often vital, game updates difficult and time consuming. He also argues that the current Xbox Live layout does not make it readily apparent where users can buy the games in question.

It's not all doom and gloom, though. Carmel notes that XBLA played a pivotal role in the popularization of independent games and that, with a few adjustments to the XBLA development process, namely more automation, removal of the content certification process and dropping ESRB certification in favor of a self-administered rating system - bringing XBLA more in line with the iTunes App store - could breathe new life into Microsoft's indie library.



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Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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The certification process is an interesting problem. I'm not sure how much QC there really is, and it seems to delay indie games far more than larger titles.
 

orangeban

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Uh, what does that graph actually say? I can't actually tell, from the looks of it, Sony plans to have higher numbers than Microsoft in 2012, but I don't know what the numbers mean or represent!
 

Frostbite3789

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So what I've learned recently is that indie developers who develop for more than one platform hate developing for the 360, but if they only develop for the 360, they love it. It's the best thing ever, a land of magic, happiness and rainbows!

A bit strange.
 

countzero1234

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orangeban said:
Uh, what does that graph actually say? I can't actually tell, from the looks of it, Sony plans to have higher numbers than Microsoft in 2012, but I don't know what the numbers mean or represent!
It is clear in the original article but not the recap here. Basically it is the number of developers developing games for a specific platform. The data shows PSN catching up and eventually passing XBLA meaning more PSN exclusive developers (or at least exclusive against XBLA).
 

theultimateend

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Frostbite3789 said:
So what I've learned recently is that indie developers who develop for more than one platform hate developing for the 360, but if they only develop for the 360, they love it. It's the best thing ever, a land of magic, happiness and rainbows!

A bit strange.
Ignorance is bliss.

orangeban said:
Uh, what does that graph actually say? I can't actually tell, from the looks of it, Sony plans to have higher numbers than Microsoft in 2012, but I don't know what the numbers mean or represent!
The estimations for 2012 run off the current average trend.

Given the current trends is is estimated that 360 will be on the decline and PS3 will be on the incline.

Is this true? Probably not, most guesswork is shit, otherwise the market wouldn't end up crushing so many people all the time :p.
 

theultimateend

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Frostbite3789 said:
theultimateend said:
Edit: I think I misunderstood your post and took it as abrasive instead of agreeing.
Kinda of Ironic.

I was talking about the developers. They only develop for the 360, so they are ignorant of how much better it is outside of that world of development.

But whatever, good luck looking for a fight. I'm not interested.
 

twistedheat15

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Frostbite3789 said:
theultimateend said:
Just what a response. So insightful. I feel like I understand your point now. Thanks for that. A thinly veiled insult and call it a day, eh?
where exactly did he insult you? Ignorance is bliss sums up why multiplatform indies hate ms and exclusives don't. Since exclusives are used to the supposed shit toss of ms then to them its a land of rainbows since they've never known anything else.
 

Frostbite3789

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twistedheat15 said:
Frostbite3789 said:
theultimateend said:
Just what a response. So insightful. I feel like I understand your point now. Thanks for that. A thinly veiled insult and call it a day, eh?
where exactly did he insult you? Ignorance is bliss sums up why multiplatform indies hate ms and exclusives don't. Since exclusives are used to the supposed shit toss of ms then to them its a land of rainbows since they've never known anything else.
Yeah, I screwed that one up. Misunderstood his meaning. Thought it was "You don't know what it's like. etc."
 

orangeban

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countzero1234 said:
orangeban said:
Uh, what does that graph actually say? I can't actually tell, from the looks of it, Sony plans to have higher numbers than Microsoft in 2012, but I don't know what the numbers mean or represent!
It is clear in the original article but not the recap here. Basically it is the number of developers developing games for a specific platform. The data shows PSN catching up and eventually passing XBLA meaning more PSN exclusive developers (or at least exclusive against XBLA).
Oh, right, thanks.
 

duchaked

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Dec 25, 2008
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it's likely that the 360 players are also more inclined to just play retail games. I don't know the numbers so I'm just guessing, could be wrong.

I like downloadable games often times, but indie games are just everywhere and kind of meh often times. altho there are some amazing downloadable games that really come in handy when your console decides to eat its own try...sigh lol
 

ResonanceGames

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The other graph on his blog shows that Windows spanks them both. Open platform FTW!

Seriously, indie games and high levels of control do not go well together.
 

BrotherRool

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This surprised me I though MS put more advertising into their games and had a much more varied selection. Guess I was wrong

theultimateend said:
Frostbite3789 said:
orangeban said:
Uh, what does that graph actually say? I can't actually tell, from the looks of it, Sony plans to have higher numbers than Microsoft in 2012, but I don't know what the numbers mean or represent!
The estimations for 2012 run off the current average trend.

Given the current trends is is estimated that 360 will be on the decline and PS3 will be on the incline.

Is this true? Probably not, most guesswork is shit, otherwise the market wouldn't end up crushing so many people all the time :p.
Well considering it was a poll of developers who presumably work on a game before they release them (that's only a bs hypothesis though) and also that you know 2012 is three months away.

And also the way it says "plan for 2012" and the question was "what platform are you developing games for"

.. I would say that you're guesswork as to it's meaning could be incorrect, it could be right as well but any graph which is presenting discrete data as a line could go either way. It could look like extrapolation if it wasn't and the other way round
 

Baldr

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Jan 6, 2010
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There are two types of indie game developers, the professionals, usually who have had or do have a career in the industry and then hobbyists, who usually don't have any experience in the industry. There are almost no hobbyist developers for PSN development, but there are a lot for XBLA. I think most of XBLA content management was designed with hobbyists in mind, I have known a couple hobbyists who have had success. Carmel is only taking about professional indie developers.

I think if Microsoft is smart, they would make a professional developer indie level for those developers who want more control and options, of course they would have to charge more, but it could be on par with what Sony charges.
 

Kopikatsu

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theultimateend said:
Frostbite3789 said:
theultimateend said:
Edit: I think I misunderstood your post and took it as abrasive instead of agreeing.
Kinda of Ironic.

I was talking about the developers. They only develop for the 360, so they are ignorant of how much better it is outside of that world of development.

But whatever, good luck looking for a fight. I'm not interested.
I don't think that's it. Microsoft made a huge deal about how 'Any game that comes out exclusively on another system will never come to the 360!' and other fun things (Like getting Skyrim DLC a month early), it's possible that they just treat developers that don't work exclusively for them badly.

Jealously or something.

Blank Kold said:
That is a terrible graph. People need to start labeling their shit.
More proof that school was pointless!
 

-Dragmire-

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Mar 29, 2011
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I read through some of the blog but:

3. Stop requiring independent developers to publish through MGS. All you?re doing is adding overhead to the process by assigning a producer to the game and making developers unhappy by giving them a lower rev share (to cover MGS? added overhead costs). For the most part, everyone I know who has worked with Microsoft said it was not only unhelpful to have a producer, it actually became yet another thing that needed to be managed and took focus away from developing the game. I?d like to note that Kevin Hathaway seems to be an exception. I keep hearing developers say positive things about him. Every other distribution channel allows independent developers to self publish, without a producer, and I see no evidence that having a producer on a game makes it better.

4. Drop the TCRs, make updating easy. TCRs add months to a game?s development time that could be better used polishing the game. Many of these requirements hardly ever come up or could be dealt with behind the scenes by Microsoft instead of requiring every developer to write their own solution. I don?t see any evidence that enforcing these TCRs results in better games. PC games are of comparable quality despite the much wider range of hardware they run on and there?s no TCR list. Instead of enforcing time consuming and expensive compliance testing, Microsoft could make it trivial for developers to release updates so that whatever issues come up after launch can be easily and quickly addressed by the developer. This model is working wonderfully on both Steam and the App Store.
What's a MGS and TCR?