239: Batmanalyzed
- Thread starter Allen Varney
- Start date
I also had that same problem with the article, but overall it was good.Dahemo said:
I mean could you imagine if Batman did assault a politician who raised taxes? Not only would it be the worst issue ever as far as action and plot go. But it would also establish Batman as something that he's not, a criminal. Never in any issue of the comics has Batman ever assaulted anyone who was not armed or dangerous, so its a little silly to think of Batman breaking into some politician's office and beating him, it kind of makes Batman seem like an asshole, rather than a symbol for hope and justice for Gotham.
I mean sure, you could argue with me for days about whether or not Batman is actually a criminal. However when you read the comic books, you don't think of Batman as a vigilante criminal committing heinous crimes when he stops the Joker from blowing up a TV studio, you view him as a hero. If you didn't view Batman as a hero, then why would you read the comic in the first place?
But what's interesting about well-adjusted adults?malestrithe said:
Anyway, in the films/games/comics vigilantism works, people like the idea of having someone extraordinary out there to protect them (why do you think religion exists?). Of course, as you've pointed out, in real-life it doesn't work.
The Chris Nolan films touch on those things well I think - things like the imitators at the start of The Dark Knight; the search for someone to replace Batman legally; the public's opinion of him.
[small]Dunno how much those things are taken from the comics exactly, but the films bring more realism in the sense of problems he encounters.[/small]
Interesting article... but at the same time, it seems to be placing an awful lot of demands on a character that is essentially, well, a character. Fiction. Comics. Entertainment.
Granted, Batman, for me, is one of the most realistic characters of the DC universe (not familiar enough with Marvel to comment accurately, although Lord knows I love Deadpool).
That said.. you can introduce realism, but only to a certain extent, as too much, and it falters.
A brilliant realistic portrayal of crime in Gotham City is Brian Azzarello's "Joker" comic, where Batman is a shadow, a presence, a whisp of smoke in the grim, dark setting of the Gotham he explores. Batman can only be in so many places. I also think that not enough attention was paid to the actual environment the stories take place in. For me, Batman without Gotham (and vice versa) is Superman without the Super bit. It just... doesn't work.
The prime reason for my continued semi boycott of JLA stories. Batman's motives are all about Gotham, the terrifying, half rotting urban labryinthe that seems a lost cause. Gotham city typifies everything that urban settings are reviled for- urban decay, social fractures, gang violence, rapes, murders and despair. I have only encountered Batman interacting with one or two junkies.. and even then he brought one to hospital after stabilising them, and closed the dead ones eyes.
I did get the feeling that the (admittedly idealistic) altruism that the character is also motivated by was largely passed over by this writer.
Still a good article, raising some very valid points... but I feel that these could have been applied to any superhero character, not just the Dark Knight.
Granted, Batman, for me, is one of the most realistic characters of the DC universe (not familiar enough with Marvel to comment accurately, although Lord knows I love Deadpool).
That said.. you can introduce realism, but only to a certain extent, as too much, and it falters.
A brilliant realistic portrayal of crime in Gotham City is Brian Azzarello's "Joker" comic, where Batman is a shadow, a presence, a whisp of smoke in the grim, dark setting of the Gotham he explores. Batman can only be in so many places. I also think that not enough attention was paid to the actual environment the stories take place in. For me, Batman without Gotham (and vice versa) is Superman without the Super bit. It just... doesn't work.
The prime reason for my continued semi boycott of JLA stories. Batman's motives are all about Gotham, the terrifying, half rotting urban labryinthe that seems a lost cause. Gotham city typifies everything that urban settings are reviled for- urban decay, social fractures, gang violence, rapes, murders and despair. I have only encountered Batman interacting with one or two junkies.. and even then he brought one to hospital after stabilising them, and closed the dead ones eyes.
I did get the feeling that the (admittedly idealistic) altruism that the character is also motivated by was largely passed over by this writer.
Still a good article, raising some very valid points... but I feel that these could have been applied to any superhero character, not just the Dark Knight.
well you are going to hate the new batman after bruce returns, since he is going to go international and let dick and damien be batman for gotham according to the recent interviews.
batman being gay for his robins is an old joke it is often made fun of and and sent up in shows like the venture bros. with one of the most famous voices of batman doing the voice of the parody of batman. beyond the implied jokes and whatnot there has never been any evidence at all of batman being gay for young boys. nevermind young boys he trains to be lethal fighting machines, i am sure "dick" grayson or tim drake would have come back for a can of whop ass if he had been molesting them as children.
he does in fact sleep with the occasional woman and had a few relationships over the years usually with very flawed women, catwoman, talia al ghoul, and the most normal one vicky vale.
yea he is a psychopath, i mean how many normal people get dressed up as a bat and spend every night prowling the streets for crime? even he knows it is not normal and several comics deal with that fact to some degree or another.
but what city did he become batman in? a city that was besieged with mob and gang violence, with a police force that was near thoroughly corrupt, politicians on the take, judges under the thumb of the mob and on and on. basically a hyper version of the nypd or lapd coupled with the very best capitol hill has to offer. to the point the crime lords ran the city the cops and the politicians. once he became batman yea he inspired the super criminals and psychos to erupt form the mess most famously the joker created himself to try and foil batman, riddler started doing crimes to try and outsmart the greatest detective alive, etc etc. but would they have just gone away if batman helped clean up the city and then retired or whatever?
is it realistic that someone would lose their parents, go into exile, become a master of all martial arts, forensics, mediation, yoga and on and on and them come back to fight crime in a few years? hell no but it is a bleeping comic after all.
yea he has raised 3 robins 2 or 3 of which are into full adulthood, with a teenage son now days in the mix, which would make him pretty damn old, but then again it is a comic.
if you picked apart most any comic or action hero they tend to not stand up to the harsh light of logic or common sense or realism most definately.
but we all like heroes, we need heroes weither they be comic book ones, sports ones, real life ones on occasion, comic ones barely age, they never falter, and they are rarely plagued by the reality that our sports/real life heroes are doping up or beating their gfs, or cheating on their wives.
batman is an icon because he is one of the first super heroes that lasted the ages and continues to be popular, he is one of the few super heroes that has no supernatural or inhuman abilities, he also wins most battles using his mind and his human skills and some scifi tech, but he is no superman or wonder woman or x men or 80% of all other super heroes that are super in some physical way.
he is in effect the ideal human in mental and physical diciplines, if he was not emotionally scarred he would be pretty damn boring to write about otherwise.
batman being gay for his robins is an old joke it is often made fun of and and sent up in shows like the venture bros. with one of the most famous voices of batman doing the voice of the parody of batman. beyond the implied jokes and whatnot there has never been any evidence at all of batman being gay for young boys. nevermind young boys he trains to be lethal fighting machines, i am sure "dick" grayson or tim drake would have come back for a can of whop ass if he had been molesting them as children.
he does in fact sleep with the occasional woman and had a few relationships over the years usually with very flawed women, catwoman, talia al ghoul, and the most normal one vicky vale.
yea he is a psychopath, i mean how many normal people get dressed up as a bat and spend every night prowling the streets for crime? even he knows it is not normal and several comics deal with that fact to some degree or another.
but what city did he become batman in? a city that was besieged with mob and gang violence, with a police force that was near thoroughly corrupt, politicians on the take, judges under the thumb of the mob and on and on. basically a hyper version of the nypd or lapd coupled with the very best capitol hill has to offer. to the point the crime lords ran the city the cops and the politicians. once he became batman yea he inspired the super criminals and psychos to erupt form the mess most famously the joker created himself to try and foil batman, riddler started doing crimes to try and outsmart the greatest detective alive, etc etc. but would they have just gone away if batman helped clean up the city and then retired or whatever?
is it realistic that someone would lose their parents, go into exile, become a master of all martial arts, forensics, mediation, yoga and on and on and them come back to fight crime in a few years? hell no but it is a bleeping comic after all.
yea he has raised 3 robins 2 or 3 of which are into full adulthood, with a teenage son now days in the mix, which would make him pretty damn old, but then again it is a comic.
if you picked apart most any comic or action hero they tend to not stand up to the harsh light of logic or common sense or realism most definately.
but we all like heroes, we need heroes weither they be comic book ones, sports ones, real life ones on occasion, comic ones barely age, they never falter, and they are rarely plagued by the reality that our sports/real life heroes are doping up or beating their gfs, or cheating on their wives.
batman is an icon because he is one of the first super heroes that lasted the ages and continues to be popular, he is one of the few super heroes that has no supernatural or inhuman abilities, he also wins most battles using his mind and his human skills and some scifi tech, but he is no superman or wonder woman or x men or 80% of all other super heroes that are super in some physical way.
he is in effect the ideal human in mental and physical diciplines, if he was not emotionally scarred he would be pretty damn boring to write about otherwise.
Most of the Batman comics I skim through at Chapters generally has Bruce Wayne or Batman dealing with white collar crime or helping the occasional victim of crime. One in particular had Bruce Wayne gathering intel about some counterfit merchandice that was being imported while he chatted up some snob at a party who didn't give a flip about whatever it was, so long as he saved a few bucks. A few phone calls and the goods were seized and the guy was arrested leaving the party.
Later that night as Batman he stopped a burglary, but not before the Mr. and Mrs. of the house were killed, leaving an orphan. Months later he encountered that same orphan comitting a B&E of his own, though the residents weren't at home. Batman convinced the boy not to persue a life of crime instead of just beating the snot out of him.
Wasn't it the Wayne Foundation that stopped Gotham from going under completely back-in-the-day? Pretty sure Al-Ghoul mentioned that in the first Dark Knight movie.
Later that night as Batman he stopped a burglary, but not before the Mr. and Mrs. of the house were killed, leaving an orphan. Months later he encountered that same orphan comitting a B&E of his own, though the residents weren't at home. Batman convinced the boy not to persue a life of crime instead of just beating the snot out of him.
Wasn't it the Wayne Foundation that stopped Gotham from going under completely back-in-the-day? Pretty sure Al-Ghoul mentioned that in the first Dark Knight movie.
"Why doesn't Batman beat up white collar criminals?"
Because Lex Luthor didn't shoot his parents in the face, Joe Chill did, and Joe Chill was a petty criminal, not a corrupt mortgage broker. Batman goes after muggers, carjackers, and drug dealers, because those are the violent criminals that took his parents from him. Batman didn't become Batman to break into the homes of the 1% and throw batarangs at them (as awesomely funny as that comic would be) but to prevent criminals from destroying any more lives.
I would also argue that Batman doesn't actively seek out "junkies" to punish either, as "junkies" are defined as people addicted to/using narcotics, but not necessarily violent individuals.
I've read a lot of Batman comics over the years, and I don't really recall too many instances of Batman walking into crack houses and assaulting malnourished, incapacitated drug addicts "for teh lulz".
Want the best example of Bruce Wayne ever? Read Matt Wagner's 1993 "Batman Grendel: Devils Riddle" if you want Bruce Wayne portrayed perfectly. Absentminded. Bored. Tired. Charming. Vapid. Disinterested. Shows up late for board meetings. In short, a Playboy.
When does Batman sleep? I would guess sometime between 5AM to "whenever Bruce Wayne feels like getting up". Bruce Wayne, (as everybody knows) spends his evenings drinking too much at gala events, and then going home with two models who don't speak any English. I would guess he gets up around noon, then. Seven hours of sleep sound about right to everybody?
Because Lex Luthor didn't shoot his parents in the face, Joe Chill did, and Joe Chill was a petty criminal, not a corrupt mortgage broker. Batman goes after muggers, carjackers, and drug dealers, because those are the violent criminals that took his parents from him. Batman didn't become Batman to break into the homes of the 1% and throw batarangs at them (as awesomely funny as that comic would be) but to prevent criminals from destroying any more lives.
I would also argue that Batman doesn't actively seek out "junkies" to punish either, as "junkies" are defined as people addicted to/using narcotics, but not necessarily violent individuals.
I've read a lot of Batman comics over the years, and I don't really recall too many instances of Batman walking into crack houses and assaulting malnourished, incapacitated drug addicts "for teh lulz".
Want the best example of Bruce Wayne ever? Read Matt Wagner's 1993 "Batman Grendel: Devils Riddle" if you want Bruce Wayne portrayed perfectly. Absentminded. Bored. Tired. Charming. Vapid. Disinterested. Shows up late for board meetings. In short, a Playboy.
When does Batman sleep? I would guess sometime between 5AM to "whenever Bruce Wayne feels like getting up". Bruce Wayne, (as everybody knows) spends his evenings drinking too much at gala events, and then going home with two models who don't speak any English. I would guess he gets up around noon, then. Seven hours of sleep sound about right to everybody?
Aside from the fact that a article talking about how unrealistic Batman is about as insightful as a submarine window these criticisms aren't very good anyway. Why would Bruce Wayne have to 'study' small talk? Bruce Wayne is an important identity to him, without Bruce Wayne and his careful balance of distracting celebrity personality and carefully considered business empire management there would be no Batman. Bruce is a good actor and it isn't hard to simply emulate the behaviour of other rich celebs when you are surrounded by them, and they're drunk.
The fact that Bruce never really sleeps around is more a statement about celebrity and media culture, the ease at which is is able to create wild rumours about himself is more a comment on the paparazzi than a plot hole. Just think about it, he has no consistent girlfriends, there are all famous actresses and stars, even if they did sleep with him they would deny it and the newspapers would assume they were lying. The point that Bruce Wayne's celebrity identity is so easy to maintain just goes to show how shallow these lifestyles are and how gullible the public are. Plus you fail to mention Bruce frequently hire impersonators to create alibis, I'm sure there are lots of women out there who think they have slept with Bruce Wayne.
Although by far the silliest thing here was this:
"Bruce Wayne could spend a small fraction of his fortune to buy off all the crooks in Gotham, set them up in nice apartments with a monthly stipend and make the streets safe overnight" ...I'm not sure society works like that.
What how would that work? hired killers, with criminal records, Bruce Wayne just buys them out of crime? and what? they sign a contract saying they will never be naughty again? and that all those people they've killed, well that water under the bridge? I mean seriously what kind of a solution is this? Surely an accountant or detective would get curious about all these hundreds of criminals all over Gotham getting their own houses and untraceable income? Just kill and old lady and Bruce Wayne will buy you a house and pay your bills so long as you don't do it again.
As long as Gotham is in such a dire state (and Wayne Industries works to improve it) powerful and ingenious Villains like Joker will always be able to easily find new goons. A big theme in Batman is the fact that Gotham is corrupt at it's core, Batman spends a lot of time beating up common thugs but only to get at his real targets, those at the top, corrupt politicians, officials and super villains. He can't exactly buy them out and it wouldn't be morally right to do so anyway.
The fact that Bruce never really sleeps around is more a statement about celebrity and media culture, the ease at which is is able to create wild rumours about himself is more a comment on the paparazzi than a plot hole. Just think about it, he has no consistent girlfriends, there are all famous actresses and stars, even if they did sleep with him they would deny it and the newspapers would assume they were lying. The point that Bruce Wayne's celebrity identity is so easy to maintain just goes to show how shallow these lifestyles are and how gullible the public are. Plus you fail to mention Bruce frequently hire impersonators to create alibis, I'm sure there are lots of women out there who think they have slept with Bruce Wayne.
Although by far the silliest thing here was this:
"Bruce Wayne could spend a small fraction of his fortune to buy off all the crooks in Gotham, set them up in nice apartments with a monthly stipend and make the streets safe overnight" ...I'm not sure society works like that.
What how would that work? hired killers, with criminal records, Bruce Wayne just buys them out of crime? and what? they sign a contract saying they will never be naughty again? and that all those people they've killed, well that water under the bridge? I mean seriously what kind of a solution is this? Surely an accountant or detective would get curious about all these hundreds of criminals all over Gotham getting their own houses and untraceable income? Just kill and old lady and Bruce Wayne will buy you a house and pay your bills so long as you don't do it again.
As long as Gotham is in such a dire state (and Wayne Industries works to improve it) powerful and ingenious Villains like Joker will always be able to easily find new goons. A big theme in Batman is the fact that Gotham is corrupt at it's core, Batman spends a lot of time beating up common thugs but only to get at his real targets, those at the top, corrupt politicians, officials and super villains. He can't exactly buy them out and it wouldn't be morally right to do so anyway.