270: A Knife to a Gun Fight

Fensfield

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Nov 4, 2009
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All I have to bring to this discussion is my long frustration with the irony in these games, where a knife can one-shot while a gun, in 90% of videogame cases, can't so much as make you stumble.

It's just.. well, for me it's just stupid, but then I'm not your average FPS-er.
 

Ed.

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Jan 14, 2010
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I've had experience of this from the development end as part of mod team we found to keep people at the right range it was best to scale the mele based on the optimal range of the weapon

so a pistol has really good mele (we made it fast rather than strong though)
an SMG a little slower
a carbine strong but slow
an assault rifle worse again

by the time you get the the ion cannon (rocket launcher ish thing) and the snipper there is no mele
 

Denizen

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Jan 29, 2010
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TF2 managed to make every 1 of the nine classes have each a primary, secondary, and melee. In doing so, they managed to balance the weapons against every other classes arsenal and yet still make them fun and gritty in their own way. This however may seem foreign to those who haven't experienced it's brand of genius...

(Also this was made by the people who put the crowbar on the forefront of melee combat)

O well, time to go back to being the guy with the small butterfly knife running around for people to shank...or backstab
 

radicaledward92

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Brett Staebell said:
A Knife to a Gun Fight

It seems incongruous that so many multiplayer shooter matches can devolve into fisticuffs, but Brett Staebell proves that strong melee weapons actually make shooting more important.

Read Full Article
Two words that go well with this article....S4 LEAGUE
 

kaizoman

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Sep 12, 2008
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I love stabbing people in the back in FPS's. Sniper on the ground? Stab. Guarding that door, sneak up behind, stab.

Just stabbity stabbity all the live long day.
 

GrinningManiac

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I find joy in the humilation

"Dude, you let him hit you to death? What, are you stupid? Did all your 6 guns run out of ammo suddenly? No? Did you think he wanted a hug? Moron!"
 

Dyp100

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25% increase in pleasure when you melee someone? Imagine how much more fun it'll be when you hold down melee in Reach and that little awesome animation plays out, at least 100% for me. ;P

They dumbed down the sword in Reach, because now you can block it, and the lunge is a bit smaller, also, they got ride of the double-tap melee as it was a glitch.
 

Daveman

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Jan 8, 2009
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Iron Mal said:
Daveman said:
I think instakill melee is fair enough. The whole point of it is to teach you to be aware of what's going on around you and not to put yourself in a position where you can easily be stabbed. The thing with modern warfare 2 is that ALL the weapons are powerful. Snipers can easily be 1 shot kills, rapid fire assault rifles are 2 or three shot kills guarunteed with stopping power on, guns still beat knives in almost all cases unless you weren't expecting to get knifed. The main advantage of the knife I find is that it's silent, so you don't show up as a blip on the radar, if it weren't for that I'd just shoot them.
That's easy to say when looking at gameplay on paper but when you're actually playing you'll often notice that you'll notice a lot of times that you'll be shooting someone in the torso with a light machine gun yet they will still charge foward and rip your face off in a single fell swoop, this isn't just when people aren't expecting it, it usually happens because as powerful as guns are, they often don't kill fast enough to deny the Khorne Berserker other player an oppertunity to get their instant kill (or the knife player simply moves too fast for the player to even get a shot off, this can be particularly bad if there is lag).
Well that last point could be it as I never get better than a 90ms ping when playing MW2 on my PC so I always just assume it's lag. Or Commando. What's more if you know they're coming you also have the chance to knife. I'm still convinced that in most cases it's fair, of course there are times when people get hitmarkers and people don't go down. I think it's be much better in fact if they lost the hitmarkers. I just think it's cheating being able to know if somebody is behind a wall by shooting through it or tossing a grenade round the corner.
 

Abanic

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Unfortunately, FPS melee attacks have become the most powerful weapons of the game. Designers are too focused on giving players a 'last chance' weapon and they have made these weapons too powerful, a reusable one-shot kill. I agree that the knife is designed to reset the distances between two opponents to what it should rightfully be, but just because it's designed to do that doesn't mean that is what people are using it as. A hammer is designed to drive nails, but that doesn't mean that it can't be used to bludgeon a pelican to death. NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE INGENUITY OF VIDEO GAME PLAYERS THAT ARE LOOKING FOR A COMPETITIVE EDGE.

There are players who tweak out their characters to take advantage of what the designers are offering in order to give them an advantage; there's nothing wrong with that. However, I've often wondered how a knife wound to the ankle is able to instantly kill my adversary, or how a knife can mysteriously bypass all the canteen, gear, uniform, extra ammo, secondary weapon, and body armor that protects my character from BULLETS. Aside from magic knife blades, I've often wondered why programmers/designers offer ways to enhance the close combat fights, but no ways to protect yourself from them. Hey Modern Warfare, how about next time you offer a perk (titanium/fiberglass underarmor bodysuit) that makes knife attacks mostly ineffective? It wouldn't do anything to stop a bullet, but it would force the "witch-blades", "ninjas", and "slashers" to actually shoot their guns in a First Person Shooter.

How about EMP rounds that dissipate energy swords?

How about requiring multiple knife wounds to kill an opponent (you could then add perks to decrease the number of strikes to kill or decrease the time between strikes)?

How about giving different strengths to the frying pan, crowbar, machette, katana, cricket bat, and all the rest so I know which one to use against the Tank, or Jockey, or an effective Charger?

How about giving the Modern Warfare collapsed victim 5 seconds before they die (by bleed-out) to shoot their assailant, you could call it 'knife-victim last-stand' (a additional perk could also allow the slasher to instant kill)?

How about all designers stop making bullets LESS effective than their real life counterparts, and stop making knives MORE effective than their real life counterparts?

There are things that designers can do to return balance to the popular FPSs and return melee weapons to their designed functions as 'last chance' weapons.

Another major innovation that has infiltrated its way into games is the level design has changed over the last few years. I still fondly remember a vast, horseshoe-shaped, canyon multiplayer map in the original Halo, or the sprawling areas of Battlefield 2 (for 360). It seems to me that designers are designing levels that encourage the in-your-face confrontations that make melee fights unavoidable. I understand that these levels are programmed in an effort to maximize realism and excitement while avoiding hardware limitations, but the choice of forcing all of these fights into battlefields that can be measured in acres (as opposed to miles) is that you are encouraging certain types of play by making those tactics more effective.

Players are gonna play and haters are gonna hate. We can all wish that everyone would have a sense of fair-play and fun, but many are only concerned with their win/loss ratio. Until the designers realize that players will not always use a feature for its intended purpose, we will have to suffer the wrath of the melee-focused FPS players. I just hope that the designers realize that FPS games, like real life, are in the midst of an arms-race, and will start to add some anti-melee features to our favorite games.
 

D-Ship

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Jul 13, 2007
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Not G. Ivingname said:
Brett Staebell said:
A witch blade knifing class?

Care to share?
Oh man - you're going to be disappointed if you think I'm talking about THIS [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchblade] witchblade. (note: originally did a Google image search, but discovered it might be a little too NSFW for The Escapist. Search at your own peril~)

The Witchblade is basically just the monicker for a certain set of perks you can choose in Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2. THEY ARE...

Lightweight: Lets you run faster (+quicker aim after sprinting for Pro)
Marathon: Infinite Running (+get over obstacles like ladders faster for Pro)
Commando: Melee hits at a greater distance (+no fall damage at pro)

and then, finally, any hand gun + tactical knife, which lets you stab dudes faster.

As usual, Penny Arcade puts it more eloquently than I can (see the link I put to Jerry Holkins in the article), but the gist is that you become super fast and look like you're teleporting the last ten feet or so to get that knife kill. It's called "witchblade" because it more or less looks like you're using wichcraft or some other hocus pocus to stab people nightcrawler style. It's a pretty bogus way to die...but killing the guys who are doing it is every bit as satisfying as dying by their hands is horrible.
 

bojac6

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I think the insta-kill from behind is a good tool. It keeps people (or it should keep people), on their toes and force them to find cover.

But I think melee from the front should be mostly a random affair, to make it more of a deterrent. You don't want to get into a knife fight because you can't guaranty you'll win. If you can't sneak up behind him, then you should find the range advantage with your gun and shoot him.

Though I'll be the first to admit it is a lot of fun. Melee kills are the most satisfying, except for maybe taking out a vehicle or something. But the best kill of all time was killing someone with the Prod in Worms. Not a cattle prod, mind you, you just prod the other person, and push them forward a slight bit. If you could ever kill someone like this, that was a beautiful day.

D-Ship said:
It's called "witchblade" because it more or less looks like you're using wichcraft or some other hocus pocus to stab people nightcrawler style. It's a pretty bogus way to die...but killing the guys who are doing it is every bit as satisfying as dying by their hands is horrible.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is named after this witchblade [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchblade]. Because she could do stuff like that, suddenly appear in front of you with a knife in your gut. And because it's a classic comic book example of some object giving you amazing powers and "breaking" the real world, just like the Witchblade build "breaks" the world of MW2.
 

carpathic

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My brother and I always have knife-only fights in MW2. He is an awesome sniper and it is the only way we can compete in PvP.

Also, few things beat the gravity hammer in Halo for pure fun!
 

Wrath 228

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Aug 26, 2010
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I have no problem with melee, as long as it is a situational tool. By this I mean that if someone gets behind an enemy or surprises them, they should be able to take them out quickly with a stab or bash. However, if someone takes a good 10 rounds or so from an assault rifle while charging at their target to stab them, I believe the shooter should win in this situation.

Something like this is a delicate balance. Personally, I'm able to maintain my distance from the enemy most of the time, mitigating the risk of being melee'd. Even when I'm in close quarters and the threat of being ninja'd is very real, I always travel with teammates (usually my IRL friends that I can rely on) who can spot and take out the threat before they get to us (or who can take one for the team and leave the enemy open for counter attack :D)
 

civver

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May 15, 2009
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Instant kill melee weapons turn CQC into a joke. It's alright if you have to get them from behind, since it takes skill to do that. But a one-hit kill even from the front? There's no humiliation for the enemy or pride for the victor from that. What should be a battle of wits has become a mere exercise in reflexes.

"Ultimately, the more important that melee becomes in multiplayer, the more it encourages long-range combat." Oh, really? What then of the preponderance of the Marathon-Lightweight-Command-Tac Knife combo or some variation thereof in MW2? And the point would make sense if the map encouraged long-range combat too, but often there are too many maps that don't. And long-range combat is not something to be encouraged too much or else the incidence of camping increases.
 

Sacman

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May 15, 2008
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lol the article made me think of this video...
I'm sorry...
 

kaizoman

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Sep 12, 2008
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D-Ship said:
Not G. Ivingname said:
Brett Staebell said:
A witch blade knifing class?

Care to share?
Oh man - you're going to be disappointed if you think I'm talking about THIS [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witchblade] witchblade. (note: originally did a Google image search, but discovered it might be a little too NSFW for The Escapist. Search at your own peril~)

The Witchblade is basically just the monicker for a certain set of perks you can choose in Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 2. THEY ARE...

Lightweight: Lets you run faster (+quicker aim after sprinting for Pro)
Marathon: Infinite Running (+get over obstacles like ladders faster for Pro)
Commando: Melee hits at a greater distance (+no fall damage at pro)

and then, finally, any hand gun + tactical knife, which lets you stab dudes faster.

As usual, Penny Arcade puts it more eloquently than I can (see the link I put to Jerry Holkins in the article), but the gist is that you become super fast and look like you're teleporting the last ten feet or so to get that knife kill. It's called "witchblade" because it more or less looks like you're using wichcraft or some other hocus pocus to stab people nightcrawler style. It's a pretty bogus way to die...but killing the guys who are doing it is every bit as satisfying as dying by their hands is horrible.
I too, thought you were talking about the mystical, scantily clad female witching mod. Please excuse us uninformed few. Move along, nothing to see here.
 

MinishArcticFox

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One of the better articles I've read I'm glad to see that it pointed out the flaws of melees at the end too though I'm disappointed that melees being almost as much connect based as reflex based didn't get a mention. Still a good article none the less especially the beginning talking about when melees were a humiliation tactic.
 

ZeroAE

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Jun 7, 2010
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I have always used melee in practically every game I have played , including FPS.Why?
It doesnt use ammo
It doesnt reload
It doesnt fail
It hits hard
It is fun
It is cool
It is honorable (somehow)
It makes you close to the enemy
 

Altorin

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May 16, 2008
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I like how it works in Halo/MW2, where Melee is just sort of at a fingerpress at all times. You don't need to change weapons, just tap a button and if there's a guy in your face, you can stab and kill them.

Although this article reminded me of my time playing the original Soldier of Fortune. The melee in that game was actually weaker then fighting with a gun in almost all regards, but so many players did it anyway because the unconventional strategy got them kills. I would just run around with a shotgun, and I kid you not, an "ankle-biter" (ducking and stabbing was the chief strategy for melee in that game) would run at me, start hacking at my legs, and I would have time to register this, aim my gun down, and blow their brains down into their chest cavity from above. Them running at me basically put them just at the right spot to just aim straight down and fire, getting an instant kill.