271: Red Box Renaissance

machvergil

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It really is sad that fourth edition has attracted such criticism. 4E is easily the best D&D has ever been in terms of overall fun factor and it's sad to me how much nostalgia keeps people from seeing that. Is it perfect? No, but it's much closer than any of the older editions were.
 

Slycne

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machvergil said:
It really is sad that fourth edition has attracted such criticism. 4E is easily the best D&D has ever been in terms of overall fun factor and it's sad to me how much nostalgia keeps people from seeing that. Is it perfect? No, but it's much closer than any of the older editions were.
But fun is a subjective experience, so you can't say that 4E is more 'fun' than another other edition sans your own interactions with it. So if you've had more fun with 4E and I've had more fun with another edition than we effectively just cancel each other out, but that doesn't make either one of us wrong in measuring our own enjoyment, just that we differ. I had fun with my time with 4E. I would probably even play in a campaign if given the chance, I enjoy the medium of tabletop games in almost any form. I simply prefer the experience given from older editions.

The irony here is that everyone complaining about new changes is becoming, in a way, the grognards which they scorn. At the end of the day 4E is going to change just like all the other editions did, and the new changes will have supporters and detractors like every other one did down the line.

So maybe we can all complain about 5E together?
 

doombringer333

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There are plenty of good indicators as to why 4e might have betrayed D&D's legacy. But trying to push that EN World thread as evidence of 4e's failure? Stupidfuckery.
 

Michael Mifsud

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Lets hope more of the classical D&D gaming style works its way in. 4E is the most enjoyable version of the game since 1e IMO. It has its problems but so did 1e.
 

Mutak

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Contrary to some of the hysterical posts that came before me, i felt that this interview was both honest and kind to its subject as well as informative. I am not a fan of 4th edition. I have given it a try and i like a lot of the theories that went in to it (eg everyone should always have fun stuff to do) but in the end, it just doesn't work for me. It doesn't feel like D&D. It feels like a crappy miniatures game with the option of tacking on some free-form role-playing in-between combats.

"I almost think narrative games are a different hobby, where it really is group world building or literal group storytelling. In a more traditional roleplaying game like D&D, you build it as you go and it's almost like a game of football or some sport where the action arises as you go."

This highlights what i've been feeling since the launch of 4E. It looks like there's a fundamental disconnect between the way the people in charge of D&D play D&D and the way me and my friends and every other gaming group i've ever been a part of play D&D. We don't just have cool fights - we create worlds and tell stories. We've played that way since we were playing Basic D&D, played it that way in AD&D and in 2E and 3E. 4E seems to be a game that at best does not support that style of play, and at worst, actively discourages it. It looks like 4E is designed for convention games - one-offs that highlight interesting mechanics or scenarios, but which don't make up the bulk of your gaming time.


I can accept that the game is changing and maybe i should stick with my old edition - that's fine. What caused me to write off WotC wholesale was their abortive stab at making an online table-top experience. The hobby as a whole needs to go online, but the stuff available now is a mishmash of good and bad tools that require more technical expertise than most of my table-top gaming friends possess. 4E's announcement highlighted their digital efforts, promising online tools for playing and managing games. That was more attractive than any of the rules changes they talked about.

At launch, none of it was available - not even a character generator. I stopped waiting for it after a year of almost no progress, but afaik they never got the virtual game table up and running and have largely abandoned all of their digital efforts. WotC has proven time and again that they cannot handle a programming project for D&D. If they want to have a real go at it, they need to stop trying to do it on the cheap, in-house. They need to hire real developers and devote real resources to it because the online tools are the future of their business. If they can't see that then maybe they are headed for the death spiral.
 

machvergil

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Slycne said:
machvergil said:
It really is sad that fourth edition has attracted such criticism. 4E is easily the best D&D has ever been in terms of overall fun factor and it's sad to me how much nostalgia keeps people from seeing that. Is it perfect? No, but it's much closer than any of the older editions were.
But fun is a subjective experience, so you can't say that 4E is more 'fun' than another other edition sans your own interactions with it. So if you've had more fun with 4E and I've had more fun with another edition than we effectively just cancel each other out, but that doesn't make either one of us wrong in measuring our own enjoyment, just that we differ. I had fun with my time with 4E. I would probably even play in a campaign if given the chance, I enjoy the medium of tabletop games in almost any form. I simply prefer the experience given from older editions.

The irony here is that everyone complaining about new changes is becoming, in a way, the grognards which they scorn. At the end of the day 4E is going to change just like all the other editions did, and the new changes will have supporters and detractors like every other one did down the line.

So maybe we can all complain about 5E together?
"Edition Rage" is a big part of what seems to form the discussion in gaming in general, weather it's people who loved WoW before Burning Crusade to people who'd never go back to a day before Death Knights, or arguing over editions of D&D. I agree that "fun" is subjective, but the important thing here is no one is making us play the editions of D&D we don't want to. Unlike with say WoW where I can't go back to an era before resilience, I could choose to keep playing 3.5 if I wanted to. I just choose not to, because I prefer 4th Edition.

The reason for my comment, and I see my efforts to say brief so as to not draw ire failed, was to say this: from a game design stand point, in terms of clarity of rules, options in character design and development, progression, and balance, Fourth Edition represents progress over its predecessors. I as a player feel like I don't have to put up with playing a class until I become useful, nor do I have to worry about how much my class will suck in so many levels. My casters don't have to wait forever for all the weapon-based players to resolve their extra attacks, and get to make all kinds of cool choices every time my turn comes up other than "I swing my sword."

It's not perfect. There's still a lot of stuff that's confusing, and I personally think the way encounters is handled supports dungeon grinding more than I would like, and other little nit picks, but these changes don't stop me from not being able to stomach the concept of playing an old edition of D&D again.

As a quick aside - I've been role playing since before 3rd Ed. 3rd Ed was the first time I enjoyed D&D enough for me to play it more than once. AD&D throughly disgusted me.

My concern about the naysaying isn't because I think people who think the previous editions are "wrong" so to speak as much as I am worried that it will result in the game taking steps backwards to a day when a wizard could be killed at level 1 with a single melee attack from a single Orc, and can only cast two spells a day, and therefore is helpless to all the other characters until the achieve a level of usefulness. These would represent to me a step backwards in game design, and one that I would hope that upset forum posts don't cause Wizards to take.

It is my opinion that D&D4 is more fun than previous editions, but hey, at least if they do takes steps backwards, I can keep playing 4th ed until my books decay.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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I certainly hope the new Essentials line doesn't become the dominant direction WoTC takes the D&D franchise in, because I hate with a fiery passion and fury attempts to simplify things that don't really need simplified by removing options.

4th Edition D&D isn't especially complicated - it's a highly streamlined ruleset that admittedly made individual classes seem somewhat "less distinct" by virtue of giving them all options to do badass things more often and allowing them to heal themselves in combat or whatnot, but it's disingenuous to assert that at-will, encounter, and daily powers translate into "all classes play the same now". They don't; the rule changes allow party members to be more self-sufficient certainly, and the power system definitely alters the disparity of the power level between classes like Fighters or Wizards[footnote]Where at first the latter tend to be next to useless thanks to their reliance on expendable daily abilities coupled with physical frailty and the former are awesome due to better combat survivability and the "I just hit things" principle, only for the reverse to apply at higher levels.[/footnote], but my paladin isn't anything like our party's rogue.

When 4th Edition first came out, long time D&D players lamented the dearth of Gnomes and wondered just where the hell races like Dragonborn and Eladrin came from and why WoTC seemed to think we needed them and not Gnomes, but Gnomes are in the game now. So are Githzerai, sentient collections of crystal from the Astral Plane, shapeshifters, Revenants, Devas and Shadar-kai. Old familiar classes like Monks are back in the game, and there are a bloody ton of new ones (or at least I think they're new, I'd never heard of them before anyways), some of which are really cool. There are a bloody ton of options when creating a character, and even more when leveling up and advancing them.

And then we have something like Essentials and the Red Box, where you have Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings. Fighters without daily abilities so they'll "feel more like fighters". No bloody thank you. I never played a run of the mill fighter in any CRPG system based on a D&D ruleset precisely because I didn't want to play a character who couldn't really do anything other than "hit stuff until it dies". I played Paladins, who had special abilities and could learn to cast spells, I played monks (who had all sorts of special abilities that were sort of like spells), I played elaborate multiple class/prestige class combinations, but I never just played a bloody fighter.

  • [HEADING=3]I am routinely jealous of my current party's dwarven fighter (who is playing a character I actually redesigned for him), because the stuff he can do is really damn cool[footnote]Not jealous of that fighter's player mind you, as he tends to fail miserably at doing those cool things he theoretically could thanks to abysmal dice rolls, but I still look at what he should be capable of with envy.[/footnote].[/HEADING]
Sacrificing all the nifty abilities fighters can use in 4Ed simply to make "fighters and wizards feel different" strikes me as a wrong-headed approach to a problem that isn't there - fighters do feel different from wizards. Fighters are all about getting up close and personal, acting as a bulwark against attacks on other party members, and generally singling out individual targets (or just the ones close by). In short, they pretty much just hit things, but in interesting and varied ways.

Wizards on the other hand are all about AoE, altering the battlefield environment through persistent effects, dominating enemies minds, blasting things with columns of flame, etc. They are almost never going to be in melee range of their own volition, and while 4th Edition spellcasters are a great deal more durable than spellcasters from earlier rulesets, armor restrictions and their class features still leave them "squishier" than martial classes like fighters.

Both classes have access to at-will, encounter, and daily powers, but to equate these classes with each other simply because they both have the same number of daily/encounter abilities to use is silly - wizard powers and fighter powers do very different things; the implementation of that whole power setup wasn't to make all the classes feel the same, it was to make everyone feel useful all the time by giving them more abilities to use besides the ever present "basic attack" or "die from a single blow because my class has no hitpoints oh noes".

You're not going to bring around the complainers who don't like 4th Edition now because it's more streamlined and simplistic than 3.5 by simplifying it even further, and taking away options from players like me does not endear you to us - 4th Edition is only barely complex enough now to really capture my interest, "streamlining" 4th Edition sounds to me like a recipe for making it dreadfully dull. I therefore sincerely hope that Essentials doesn't really catch on to the point where WoTC starts developing for it exclusively, and it remains forever "4th Edition for Dummies" as I perceive it, the exclusive domain of absolute beginners and nobody else.
 

Archon

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Wow, this is too intense for me. I need to find a less controversial topic. What do you guys think of Glenn Beck?

Sorry - on reflection, Gildan, you deserve a longer response, as your post was long and thought-out. I'm not really sure what to say, though, in that you and I obviously would prefer very different styles of D&D.

I think what Mearls is trying to achieve is a set of rules that is robust enough that both you and I could enjoy the game. I could run D&D with the Essentials classes and you could run it with the Core Classes and we'd both be happier. Time will tell, I suppose.
 

Norm Morrison IV

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You know, I left D&D years ago.
So I have been 'outside looking in' for a while on this. And I find it funny when anyone accuses me of a bias, since my only real stake in the game is that I really want the hobby to grow, so the more money WotC and every other company can make, the happier I am.

I think the article/interview in question was informative and fair, and I again find the obvious bias in some of these responses to be humourous. I can notate shifts in what the different editions focus on and the resultant games they create.

I was happy you mentioned the Justin Alexander stuff. I really believe that immersion is really aided by associatve mechanics, directly and indirectly.
 

Gildan Bladeborn

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Archon said:
I think what Mearls is trying to achieve is a set of rules that is robust enough that both you and I could enjoy the game. I could run D&D with the Essentials classes and you could run it with the Core Classes and we'd both be happier. Time will tell, I suppose.
That was my understanding of how things worked, they're supposed to be "compatible" with each other to the extent where you could run Essentials characters alongside standard 4Ed characters. Obviously that's not something I'd personally want to do, but the possibility is built into the system. My concern isn't that Essentials is going to ruin 4th Edition (can't really do that, as it's a parallel system running on the same underlying rules) but that increasing focus on it might slow down the ever expanding power creep to be had in the myriad 4th Edition supplements that are the lifeblood of rules lawyer min/maxing junkies like me who currently spend entire evenings concocting characters they never actually intend to play for the sheer sake of making them... and I would hate that, because I loves me some new supplements.

That last run on sentence wasn't comedic exaggeration, I treat the 4th Edition Character Creator like it was a game in and of itself, and my gaming buddies joke that I know the ins and outs of their characters better than they do [small](literally true in some cases, as I ended up redesigning their character sheets to take the core idiom they wanted to embody and make it "more awesome"[footnote]Something I was specifically asked to do by our DM when he noticed that one of the guys hadn't printed out a new sheet since 3rd level.[/footnote])[/small].
 

Michael Benensky

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I am a big fan of the simplicity of 4E. In my opinion, the new changes with Essentials are mucking up a game. Merals attempt to bring back the old players into D&D is alienating me. If they want to sell books to the old 3.5, 3.0, 2.0 and 1.0 player why don?t they print new books in those old systems. I am not going to buy many of the new essentials products and may start looking at another system to play in. He has now lost the hard-core 3.5 crowd and is working on losing players like me.
 

Archon

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Michael Benensky said:
I am a big fan of the simplicity of 4E. In my opinion, the new changes with Essentials are mucking up a game. Merals attempt to bring back the old players into D&D is alienating me. If they want to sell books to the old 3.5, 3.0, 2.0 and 1.0 player why don?t they print new books in those old systems. I am not going to buy many of the new essentials products and may start looking at another system to play in. He has now lost the hard-core 3.5 crowd and is working on losing players like me.
Michael, you raised a really good question which I asked Andy Collins earlier this year. I recommended to Wizards that they re-release one of the classic editions. From my point of view, if people want to play 3rd, 2nd, or 1st edition D&D, why have them play Pathfinder or Osric or some other clone if you can sell them the real thing? If Coca-Cola can have "Coke Classic," "New Coke" "Cherry Coke" and so on, why can't D&D have "D&D Classic" "D&D 4e", "D&D Grognard" and so on.

But their strategy seems to be to want to address all the different segments within the 4e brand.
 

Davran

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Archon said:
You're right that the "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" thread is basically a joke thread, in the same sense that the Chuck Norris threads are joke threads. But jokes are largely funny when they tug on the threads of expectations that people really do hold. Obviously, no fully informed consumer genuinely thinks "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" but the fact that the thread exists is symptomatic of real and genuine frustration on the part of people who do think D&D 4e did damage to a brand they love. Or, put another way, the thread may be poking fun of the ideas of people who genuinely DO think Mearls ruined everything, but it's only funny because some people DO think that.
The thread "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" is, of course, a satirical tribute. We get a lot of habitual complainers at ENWorld; check out the apocalyptic warnings about D&D Essentials that preceded their release.

That kind of silliness rightly deserves a good dose of satire. However, the existence of "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" in no way is meant to endorse or legitimize the complaints of the complainers it satirizes.
 

Archon

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Davran said:
The thread "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" is, of course, a satirical tribute. We get a lot of habitual complainers at ENWorld; check out the apocalyptic warnings about D&D Essentials that preceded their release.

That kind of silliness rightly deserves a good dose of satire. However, the existence of "Mike Mearls Ruined Everything" in no way is meant to endorse or legitimize the complaints of the complainers it satirizes.
Davran, thanks for dropping by from ENWorld! Linking that thread was, I thought, a quick and funny way of summarizing the "nerd rage" but it has not gone over too well.

Please tell the ENWorlders that I understand and I don't think the people posting therein actually think Mike Mearls ruined everything. Everyone here at The Escapist understands that it was actually Rob Heinsoo who ruined everything, and that Mike Mearls is going to fix it.

OMG, I kid, I kid. Please don't sick Rob Heinsoo on me.
 

4e Player Betrayed

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"So if Heinsoo just wanted to create a fun game, what did Mearls want to create?"

Obviously, something to get grognards to open up their wallets and get more market share. Essentials is nothing more than a capitulation to everyone who ever said "this is D&D WoW edition make it like the same game we've had for 30 years no changes!!!" and a big fuck you to everyone who bought 4th edition books and supported the game it was meant to be. Because make no mistake, Mearls is killing 4th edition and making something that will not support 4th edition as designed and released. People talked about 3.5 as being an unneccessary cashgrab, people talked about 3e as video-gaming the hobby, but none of those criticisms and none of that indignation was backed up by the betrayal that Mearls is conducting here.

moonkid said:
There's nothing particularly negative about this article
The dishonesty of it all. I mean, who can seriously call Tieflings new fangled? Or what about the idea of finally getting fighters out of the class ghetto being a horrible, horrible idea?
 

Archon

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Woah, 4e Player Betrayed. Nothing I heard in that interview made me think they were going to stop supporting 4th edition. I think Mearls is just trying to pitch a bigger tent, one that is inclusive of old fans as well as new.

If you think including old fans is bad, then who is really telling who to f**k off? Let's be real here.
 

Benoist

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Sep 14, 2010
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Wow.

Weren't some 4e fans pointing the finger laughing at grognards and their nerdrage over 4e?

Come on, guys. Relax.
 

Snooder

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Archon said:
I think what Mearls is trying to achieve is a set of rules that is robust enough that both you and I could enjoy the game. I could run D&D with the Essentials classes and you could run it with the Core Classes and we'd both be happier. Time will tell, I suppose.
I don't people mind that part. What gets us up in arms is the idea that the Essentials classes represent a change in the overall direction of D&D (much like Tome of Battle heralded the new era of melee classes). Letting your little bro play a gimped fighter because it's less complicated is fine. Gutting the fighter completely so that in a few years we'll be forced to play said gimped fighter is not.

Personally, I don't think what I've heard about the Essentials box is going to sway too many people into playing the game. For all its faults, 4E is a fairly easy game to pick up and play. The game could do with some pre-generated characters, and a cheaper book combining the PHB, MM and DMG with basic classes, monsters and rules would be appreciated. If Essentials can be that, then it will serve its purpose.

But to try to appease the grognards by rolling back the clock is a bad move. The new design is a BETTER design. Balance is good. Less save-or-die one-hit kills is good. Better/more streamlined combat is good. Yes, some of the mechanics are less realistic. It's a game with magic in it. Realism can only stretch so far and has to bow to the dictates of gameplay.

Ultimately, I think products like the new Ravenloft board game are probably going to be easier to get new players into the system.