I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
I guess I was pretty lucky. My Sunday school teachers were great, we had fun and it really emphasised the virtues of Christianity. The Devil didn't have any fear for me as he was always shown to be losing.
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
It always saddens me when I read about someone who fell completely away from faith later in life. It invariably is based on the most extreme aspects they were exposed to but they also lose out on the tremendous good that never seems to garner the same amount of attention.
Being a force for good and helpfulness in every community, the comfort in times of sorrow, the help in times of disaster, a group of caring friends you can count on for help. Those are also part of faith but they never seem to get mentioned.
That was an interesting article. I have never been religious, or believed in a God or a Devil or a Hell, but I can relate. When I was young, I was terrified that I'd encounter demons or monsters at night (and now that I think about it, this probably holds true for a large fraction of little kids today). Even now, I still feel scared when I'm in the dark, with this terribly, terribly irrational feeling that Pyramid Head or some shit's going to jump me when I'm not suspecting it.
I have my trusty hardback copy of Sherlock Holmes for protection, though.
I grew up under similar circumstances, but was thankfully disabused of the notion that I was being literally stalked by Satan at an early age by some fabulous parenting.
I had just finished reading The Door in the Dragon's Throat, a "Christian thriller for kids" where an intrepid archaeologist finds the door to Hell complete with winged scorpions, devils, etc. In order to close it, he commands his children, "Pray harder!" My father took me aside and explained that the entire premise was flawed, that God isn't a character from an action movie and the "Shield of Faith" wasn't going to arrive by mail next week. I never took the evangelical End Times hysteria seriously again.
My favorite conception of Satan is from Job, where he serves as God's prosecuting attorney. He still "prowls about like a roaring lion," but not to eat your soul and laugh maniacally; rather, he is looking for an excuse to bring you up on charges of pride, greed and malice.
I'm fine with religion dying.
But Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship.
You can "kill" religion all you want, but you can't kill Jesus, or what He's done.
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
Just as you spoke of the idea behind Christianity being a good one, the idea behind Communism was a good one, but it too was corrupted giving us Stalin. There's no denying that power corrupts regardless of how the power was obtained but Religion is such an easy jumping point for psychopaths to gain and abuse their power.
In my experience most religious people ended up religious under two circumstances. They were either born and raised to believe whatever religion they follow or they sought religion in a moment of weakness, be it due to a tragedy, poor decisions, whatever. Both of these make me incredibly upset.
The children of many religious parents are never even give a chance to arrive at a conclusion on the matter themselves. From the moment they are born they have their religion drilled into their heads and there is no questioning it. I had friends who routinely participated in religious activities despite thinking it was total bullshit so as not to have to confront their parents with their atheism. For many it would be like telling their parents they're gay (note: the only reason I think parents have a right to be upset about that is because they won't be getting a biological grandchild).
That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. He tells them he's an atheist and they flip a shit. Its worse in things like Mormon communities where you're essentially excommunicated if you leave the church. The kids are brainwashed from birth and any smart enough to think for themselves get a whole mess of shit on the fan.
Note that some religious communities won't let you marry outside the religion which I also think is some massive bullshit.
The other type, the person in a moment of weakness, is equally sickening to me. They take this person who is down on their luck, in a moment of desperation, and promise them nice sounding things, and essentially mold them into a follower. In their time of weakness rather than offering genuine help they turn them into a puppet.
Now I won't argue that no good comes out of religion. It can provide community, a set of morals, etc but I find the detriments far outweigh the benefits.
Religion is used as an excuse for ignorance. We use religion to fight science. NO! Fight science with better science, not the word of people who wrote a book thousands of years ago when no one knew what the fuck they were talking about. Religion is used by many evil people to gain support for things that don't benefit the world. Even Hitler, who as you said was not a believer, abused religion's power over people and used it to do some really shitty stuff.
Religion is far too powerful a force for people to dick around with, especially when everything it offers could be accomplished through other means. Community? Join some sort of club. Morals? Develop your own sense of morals, maybe with some parental influence. The idea that so many people so zealously believe this shit astounds me. If the pope said the rapture has come, everyone drink the (poisoned) kool-aid, then millions of people would fucking do it.
Its so powerful and its all bullshit and I'm terrified that some very powerful people are making some very important decisions based on a book filled with straight up bullshit.
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
Just as you spoke of the idea behind Christianity being a good one, the idea behind Communism was a good one, but it too was corrupted giving us Stalin. There's no denying that power corrupts regardless of how the power was obtained but Religion is such an easy jumping point for psychopaths to gain and abuse their power.
In my experience most religious people ended up religious under two circumstances. They were either born and raised to believe whatever religion they follow or they sought religion in a moment of weakness, be it due to a tragedy, poor decisions, whatever. Both of these make me incredibly upset.
The children of many religious parents are never even give a chance to arrive at a conclusion on the matter themselves. From the moment they are born they have their religion drilled into their heads and there is no questioning it. I had friends who routinely participated in religious activities despite thinking it was total bullshit so as not to have to confront their parents with their atheism. For many it would be like telling their parents they're gay (note: the only reason I think parents have a right to be upset about that is because they won't be getting a biological grandchild).
That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. He tells them he's an atheist and they flip a shit. Its worse in things like Mormon communities where you're essentially excommunicated if you leave the church. The kids are brainwashed from birth and any smart enough to think for themselves get a whole mess of shit on the fan.
Note that some religious communities won't let you marry outside the religion which I also think is some massive bullshit.
The other type, the person in a moment of weakness, is equally sickening to me. They take this person who is down on their luck, in a moment of desperation, and promise them nice sounding things, and essentially mold them into a follower. In their time of weakness rather than offering genuine help they turn them into a puppet.
Now I won't argue that no good comes out of religion. It can provide community, a set of morals, etc but I find the detriments far outweigh the benefits.
Religion is used as an excuse for ignorance. We use religion to fight science. NO! Fight science with better science, not the word of people who wrote a book thousands of years ago when no one knew what the fuck they were talking about. Religion is used by many evil people to gain support for things that don't benefit the world. Even Hitler, who as you said was not a believer, abused religion's power over people and used it to do some really shitty stuff.
Religion is far too powerful a force for people to dick around with, especially when everything it offers could be accomplished through other means. Community? Join some sort of club. Morals? Develop your own sense of morals, maybe with some parental influence. The idea that so many people so zealously believe this shit astounds me. If the pope said the rapture has come, everyone drink the (poisoned) kool-aid, then millions of people would fucking do it.
Its so powerful and its all bullshit and I'm terrified that some very powerful people are making some very important decisions based on a book filled with straight up bullshit.
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
Just as you spoke of the idea behind Christianity being a good one, the idea behind Communism was a good one, but it too was corrupted giving us Stalin. There's no denying that power corrupts regardless of how the power was obtained but Religion is such an easy jumping point for psychopaths to gain and abuse their power.
In my experience most religious people ended up religious under two circumstances. They were either born and raised to believe whatever religion they follow or they sought religion in a moment of weakness, be it due to a tragedy, poor decisions, whatever. Both of these make me incredibly upset.
The children of many religious parents are never even give a chance to arrive at a conclusion on the matter themselves. From the moment they are born they have their religion drilled into their heads and there is no questioning it. I had friends who routinely participated in religious activities despite thinking it was total bullshit so as not to have to confront their parents with their atheism. For many it would be like telling their parents they're gay (note: the only reason I think parents have a right to be upset about that is because they won't be getting a biological grandchild).
That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. He tells them he's an atheist and they flip a shit. Its worse in things like Mormon communities where you're essentially excommunicated if you leave the church. The kids are brainwashed from birth and any smart enough to think for themselves get a whole mess of shit on the fan.
Note that some religious communities won't let you marry outside the religion which I also think is some massive bullshit.
The other type, the person in a moment of weakness, is equally sickening to me. They take this person who is down on their luck, in a moment of desperation, and promise them nice sounding things, and essentially mold them into a follower. In their time of weakness rather than offering genuine help they turn them into a puppet.
Now I won't argue that no good comes out of religion. It can provide community, a set of morals, etc but I find the detriments far outweigh the benefits.
Religion is used as an excuse for ignorance. We use religion to fight science. NO! Fight science with better science, not the word of people who wrote a book thousands of years ago when no one knew what the fuck they were talking about. Religion is used by many evil people to gain support for things that don't benefit the world. Even Hitler, who as you said was not a believer, abused religion's power over people and used it to do some really shitty stuff.
Religion is far too powerful a force for people to dick around with, especially when everything it offers could be accomplished through other means. Community? Join some sort of club. Morals? Develop your own sense of morals, maybe with some parental influence. The idea that so many people so zealously believe this shit astounds me. If the pope said the rapture has come, everyone drink the (poisoned) kool-aid, then millions of people would fucking do it.
Its so powerful and its all bullshit and I'm terrified that some very powerful people are making some very important decisions based on a book filled with straight up bullshit.
Yes but atheism isn't a thing that can give an individual power (or abuse it) over a large group. Religion is not only capable of that but has been used in exactly that way countless times. Religion demands a certain amount of following blindly (actually a whole lot of that). Atheism is just the state of not believing in a higher power. Atheists think for themselves.
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
Just as you spoke of the idea behind Christianity being a good one, the idea behind Communism was a good one, but it too was corrupted giving us Stalin. There's no denying that power corrupts regardless of how the power was obtained but Religion is such an easy jumping point for psychopaths to gain and abuse their power.
In my experience most religious people ended up religious under two circumstances. They were either born and raised to believe whatever religion they follow or they sought religion in a moment of weakness, be it due to a tragedy, poor decisions, whatever. Both of these make me incredibly upset.
The children of many religious parents are never even give a chance to arrive at a conclusion on the matter themselves. From the moment they are born they have their religion drilled into their heads and there is no questioning it. I had friends who routinely participated in religious activities despite thinking it was total bullshit so as not to have to confront their parents with their atheism. For many it would be like telling their parents they're gay (note: the only reason I think parents have a right to be upset about that is because they won't be getting a biological grandchild).
That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. He tells them he's an atheist and they flip a shit. Its worse in things like Mormon communities where you're essentially excommunicated if you leave the church. The kids are brainwashed from birth and any smart enough to think for themselves get a whole mess of shit on the fan.
Note that some religious communities won't let you marry outside the religion which I also think is some massive bullshit.
The other type, the person in a moment of weakness, is equally sickening to me. They take this person who is down on their luck, in a moment of desperation, and promise them nice sounding things, and essentially mold them into a follower. In their time of weakness rather than offering genuine help they turn them into a puppet.
Now I won't argue that no good comes out of religion. It can provide community, a set of morals, etc but I find the detriments far outweigh the benefits.
Religion is used as an excuse for ignorance. We use religion to fight science. NO! Fight science with better science, not the word of people who wrote a book thousands of years ago when no one knew what the fuck they were talking about. Religion is used by many evil people to gain support for things that don't benefit the world. Even Hitler, who as you said was not a believer, abused religion's power over people and used it to do some really shitty stuff.
Religion is far too powerful a force for people to dick around with, especially when everything it offers could be accomplished through other means. Community? Join some sort of club. Morals? Develop your own sense of morals, maybe with some parental influence. The idea that so many people so zealously believe this shit astounds me. If the pope said the rapture has come, everyone drink the (poisoned) kool-aid, then millions of people would fucking do it.
Its so powerful and its all bullshit and I'm terrified that some very powerful people are making some very important decisions based on a book filled with straight up bullshit.
Yes but atheism isn't a thing that can give an individual power (or abuse it) over a large group. Religion is not only capable of that but has been used in exactly that way countless times. Religion demands a certain amount of following blindly (actually a whole lot of that). Atheism is just the state of not believing in a higher power. Atheists think for themselves.
So, as I understand you, all atheists are completely free thinking? They're not affected by society, or the economy, or even the state of nature around them?
I'm replying in regards to the snowman thread, below
snowman6251 said:
twistedmic said:
snowman6251 said:
I am an atheist and I have strong feelings about religion in that I think its one of the worst things ever to scourge the Earth. It starts out simple enough, preaching that you should be a good person, etc, but gets warped into terrible bastardized versions of itself by asshole priests and the like and becomes a tool to control and manipulate people.
In my belief, religion by itself is not the problem. The main problem is the people that hi-jack religion and use it o further their own causes, the small-minded bigots and the extremists that use religion to justify their hatred and violence.
And those types of people can take anything and warp it into something bad. Listen to some of the politicians in America talk (I'm pretty sure politicians the world over behave in similar ways). They use their political beliefs to mask ignorance, hatred and distrust.
Movie and television producers can fall into the same problems.
snowman6251 said:
Something must be pissed here take this goat) not to mention all the different religions we've had throughout history (Egyptian thing, Greek thing, Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology (lol), etc) that completely contradict each other.
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated).
Scientology, as I see it, is more of a cult than a true religion, while the Egyptians and Greeks skirted between true religion and cults.
People are perfectly capable of following moral guidelines without the fear of an everlasting torment or promise of an everlasting euphoria. We don't need Religion to do that. While that is often the intent of religion it DOES get warped and more often than not allows some twisted people to amass many followers because they believe a higher power is involved.
Regardless of intentions religion does more harm than good and that's why I think the human race should get past religion. Its done nothing but hold us back as a group.
Religion is only contains an aspect of the problem.
Religion has a terrible polarizing effect on people. It can draw clear lines for who is on one side, and who is on another. Who is part of an in-group, and who differ absolutely. This polarization allows for people to work with with cooperation against outside forces. That is the true power of humanity, and religion is one of the ways to harness it.
There are examples of people using this aspect of religion to organize very horrible, wide-scaled assaults against humanity, which have nothing to do with religion
I would contend that ANY idea or property which organizes people in such a way can cause normal people to commit terrible atrocities to others; it's the power itself that attracts hate-driven people to guide others toward their own nefarious goals. Communism itself is based on the idea of having rational people working for the good of each others, and often completely discourages or outlaws people from religious practice. In spite of this, communistic governments tend to be as corrupt and abusive as any others in the world. Hitler himself had no love for Christian ideology, aside from using it as propaganda in order to not alienate faithful German people. a quote of himself, according to http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hitler-quotes/
"The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew."
Now, I don't mean to compare your beliefs to Hitler, so I apologize that this may strike someone initially that way. What I'm saying is that the absence of religion, and even zeal against the perversion of religion that both you and I share, will not keep humanity from unifying into its own terrible stumbling block. There are plenty of examples of ideas taken from scientific inquiry that were adapted socially to do terrible things, such as Darwinism being favored as an ideal in Socialist Germany and in Fascist Italy.
Even if religion isn't for you, there is still a use for religion in society.
Despite this, the ideas HAVE merits on their own. That's why they are powerful for unifying people. It's obvious why science is good for humans in the knowledge and abilities we gain for it. Perhaps I can make a case for the good of religion for you as well. Excuse me for using Christianity; it is only what I am most familiar with. I am certain that there are other beliefs that have a base that would illustrate the idea just as well, but I don't mean to offend anyone with the inaccuracies I would produce in talking about them.
Putting all your distaste for Christianity aside, as well as the unbelievability of the claims of what Christ was able to do, ponder the idea behind his life. He was a man, who lived simply until he was 30, and then walked across the land gathering people, helping who he could with his abilities and teaching people to be kind and patient, accepting of others regardless of what they have done. His ministry was in leading people to understand kindness to others by being kind to them, himself. He continued, disrupting his own religion to the point where he was tortured and killed. Instead of inciting his followers to violently resist what happened to him, (and the supposed ability to stop it himself), he chose instead to commission his followers to teach the rest of the world the kindnesses he had shown them, and accepted his death.
It's the story of a man so committed to the good of others and teaching others to work towards the good of others, that it was more important to him that he die without resisting than to try to save his own life. It's the idea that a man can stand for the common good even when there is no gain for himself to be had (rather, he gave up his very life and died in a humiliating way, as the story goes), it's the ultimate idea that altruism doesn't have to be naturally selfish for its object.
I'm not asking you to believe the story as an instance. I'm asking you to consider the idea, and to honestly consider how it might inspire people to think about what it means to be good for others. You don't need to believe the story to understand the goodness of morality, but I would contend that the idea is a catalyst for people who hadn't given it much thought to develop an interest in becoming moral people.
I believe that your anger comes from a good basis, and I respect you for it. But I feel that your antipathy towards all religion is misguided.
In regards to the basis of good religions, it's sickening that people can try to unite behind such a figure or idea, and then profess hate against others. I am as upset about it as you are. But to abandon religion and the basis of good which can still be found within will not get rid of the corruption which you so hate.
Conclusion
So long as men can find power behind ideas, we will always have hate-driven individuals hungry for the reigns.
Just as you spoke of the idea behind Christianity being a good one, the idea behind Communism was a good one, but it too was corrupted giving us Stalin. There's no denying that power corrupts regardless of how the power was obtained but Religion is such an easy jumping point for psychopaths to gain and abuse their power.
In my experience most religious people ended up religious under two circumstances. They were either born and raised to believe whatever religion they follow or they sought religion in a moment of weakness, be it due to a tragedy, poor decisions, whatever. Both of these make me incredibly upset.
The children of many religious parents are never even give a chance to arrive at a conclusion on the matter themselves. From the moment they are born they have their religion drilled into their heads and there is no questioning it. I had friends who routinely participated in religious activities despite thinking it was total bullshit so as not to have to confront their parents with their atheism. For many it would be like telling their parents they're gay (note: the only reason I think parents have a right to be upset about that is because they won't be getting a biological grandchild).
That's the kind of thing we're talking about here. He tells them he's an atheist and they flip a shit. Its worse in things like Mormon communities where you're essentially excommunicated if you leave the church. The kids are brainwashed from birth and any smart enough to think for themselves get a whole mess of shit on the fan.
Note that some religious communities won't let you marry outside the religion which I also think is some massive bullshit.
The other type, the person in a moment of weakness, is equally sickening to me. They take this person who is down on their luck, in a moment of desperation, and promise them nice sounding things, and essentially mold them into a follower. In their time of weakness rather than offering genuine help they turn them into a puppet.
Now I won't argue that no good comes out of religion. It can provide community, a set of morals, etc but I find the detriments far outweigh the benefits.
Religion is used as an excuse for ignorance. We use religion to fight science. NO! Fight science with better science, not the word of people who wrote a book thousands of years ago when no one knew what the fuck they were talking about. Religion is used by many evil people to gain support for things that don't benefit the world. Even Hitler, who as you said was not a believer, abused religion's power over people and used it to do some really shitty stuff.
Religion is far too powerful a force for people to dick around with, especially when everything it offers could be accomplished through other means. Community? Join some sort of club. Morals? Develop your own sense of morals, maybe with some parental influence. The idea that so many people so zealously believe this shit astounds me. If the pope said the rapture has come, everyone drink the (poisoned) kool-aid, then millions of people would fucking do it.
Its so powerful and its all bullshit and I'm terrified that some very powerful people are making some very important decisions based on a book filled with straight up bullshit.
So I suppose I can summarize your feelings on this topic in that you feel that religion is that it is too powerful in that you can convince people to do your will by conversion through social/emotional ostracism, that you can convince people to follow your directive without the requirement of reason, and that it would be better to get rid of it in totality even if those who practice religion responsibly and for good causes were no longer able to keep their traditions.
My question is, were there no religion, what would fill in the void? There's people in this world who will wrest any hold they can on the minds of people in order to fulfill their selfish goals, to prosper at the expense or death of others. These people have made themselves the head of a religious state, and used psychological methods to bind their people to religion (as was attempted and failed by the mother in the youtube video.) The fear of the unknown and social ostracism are the tools these detestable priests use in order to keep those born under their rule subjugated to them.
Free from the fear of what tortures could or could not await you after death, or some omnipotent being that sees all you do and is waiting to smite you the second you do 'wrong' (which is an ironic belief, logically... if that were the case, why would you ever have enemies?) How about propaganda, and extremist nationalism? For as much as Hitler used religion as a stepping stone to power, his focus was to eventually free people from the bonds of Christianity, which he perceived as a detriment to true society. How fare the druglords in third world nations, who intimidate those who won't cooperate directly, and addict others to their wares as a means to control them? How about African warlords, who can engender a sense of fear in people who resist them and can draw boys as young as 12 years old in, convincing them that the only reason other people don't join is because they are too weak, and therefore deserve to die if they get in the militant's way?
I think that depriving the world of religion would get rid of a single tool that is used to do these evil things. But it would not get rid of the will to do them.
There may be a better solution than eradicating religion entirely. In America and other free nations of the world, freedom of religion and separation of church and state are mighty tools which keep a lot of the worst abuses of religion from manifesting on a wide scale. I think that if every people of the world were extended the freedom to choose their religion without retribution from those above or around them, the world would eventually likewise settle to a point that people would gravitate towards religion that they could identify with personally for moral and traditional reasons. Without any cruel methods for keeping people in the church like excommunication/social ostracism/et cetera, people will eventually believe because they want to, and not because they have to.
But certainly, the methods of fear in religion, as the OP has described, should go. I can't say it's completely wrong to give someone a new way to think about things when they're at a life crisis, because that could be a source of comfort and lead them in a new direction which helps them avoid the problems they've fallen into.
This freedom would require all people to think about their beliefs and choose, as both you and I have, ultimately binding them to religious belief tempered by reason. I think it could be a way to remove the problems religion is a part of while still retaining the good parts for those who enjoy it.
Also "the enemies you face are possessed human soldiers, fireball tossing imps, and giant demons with laser guns for right arms - as if Satan co-wrote a story with Philip K. Dick" is an awesome quote
My general view on religion is that you can believe whatever the hell you like, as long as it doesn't (negatively) affect other people.
That was a strange story, thanks for sharing it. I personally have never been believed that Satan was real, despite a Christian upbringing (albeit, a lazy one) and always seemed to think that the stories...were stories. Were you really taught to think that Satan had demons ready to attack? Why?...because I never really got that impression from my youth....it also didn't help that I had a tenancy to over-think it.
Robyrt said:
I grew up under similar circumstances, but was thankfully disabused of the notion that I was being literally stalked by Satan at an early age by some fabulous parenting.
I had just finished reading The Door in the Dragon's Throat, a "Christian thriller for kids" where an intrepid archaeologist finds the door to Hell complete with winged scorpions, devils, etc. In order to close it, he commands his children, "Pray harder!" My father took me aside and explained that the entire premise was flawed, that God isn't a character from an action movie and the "Shield of Faith" wasn't going to arrive by mail next week. I never took the evangelical End Times hysteria seriously again.
My favorite conception of Satan is from Job, where he serves as God's prosecuting attorney. He still "prowls about like a roaring lion," but not to eat your soul and laugh maniacally; rather, he is looking for an excuse to bring you up on charges of pride, greed and malice.
I read The Door in the Dragon's Throat a few days ago as well...and it was bad. Did you notice how the author kept on altering Gozan's character so he would flip from bing scared (and accidentally spoiling the ending mid way through. He actually said that there were demons behind the door at more than one point, and later flipped to saying there was treasure) to greedy (despite his loyalty to the president guy) to Christian (because it's always nice for a climax to feel completely rushed).
The author was also has amazing skills at writing characters by making every character, including the president, believe that Christianity is the right religion...but they don't believe...or something...it was interesting the way the author handled non-believers by making them believe while also not. I think it was because the author didn't want any of the characters to call Christian faith into question, but if that was the case, why even include them. There was some really sloppy writing in that 'book'.
"Dear Lord: please protect me from your followers..."
At their heart, most religions have some good ideas and founding principles that helped to shape many aspects of our modern civilisation. As an earlier poster suggested, there are some people who have a hunger for power and control who have taken people's faith and the words of various holy texts and twisted it for their own purpose... This has resulted in a lot of the backwardness and horror throughout history.
I look forward to the day when we can move forward as a species without needing the spiritual crutch that religion provides. Holy texts I think were always supposed to be guidelines on how to live a good life (at their heart), but people who take the translation of a translation of a translation (often done by people with an agenda of their own) as a literal rule-book... scary mo-fo's
This was a fantastic article though - quite intriguing to see the different aspects that strike people when they play various games though, depending on who they are as people. Especially when you take the whole faith aspect into account.
Out of interest, why do you believe this? I have friends who believe they've witnessed miracles or seen God himself (though naturally, they lack any kind of proof) and even they don't believe in demons. It doesn't seem like a very popular concept these days except with the militant right-wing fundie types.
twistedmic said:
And of the religions you've listed, most of them seem to preach the importance of preforming good deeds, being kind to others, etc (basically- don't murder, don't steal and treat others the way you want to be treated)
Sure, they preach that, but they also preach the "Do what we tell you or face punishment" part. It all depends on what an individual believes; more liberal types will emphasize Jesus' teachings about loving thy neighbour, and play down Hell as being a misunderstanding to try and make it seem as if the religion is all about peace and love. The more right-wing Christians will give much more time to the fire & brimstone aspects, with less time for tolerance and love. Very few people accept their religion as a whole, without trying to put a personal spin on it to write out the bits they don't really like.
Prince Poetic said:
I'm fine with religion dying.
But Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship.
You can "kill" religion all you want, but you can't kill Jesus, or what He's done.
It's a religion. I'm pretty sick of hearing this excuse - "Oh yeah, religion is bad. Luckily, my beliefs aren't a religion, they are a personal relationship with a spiritual being who very definitely exists". It's very smug, a way of saying that what you believe is true and that what others believe can merely be dismissed as 'religion'. It also ignores the fact that people of every religion believe they have a personal relationship with their deity which is every bit as valid as yours is.
FYI, killing Jesus is easy. You just need a tree, a hammer and four nails. Getting him to stay dead is the tricky part ;-)
TheTygre said:
So, as I understand you, all atheists are completely free thinking? They're not affected by society, or the economy, or even the state of nature around them?
Being an atheist has nothing to do with free thinking. You either believe or you don't, and no amount of wishing can change that. It's my belief that the majority of people who self-identify as Christian, Muslim, Hindu and so on are atheists; they were raised in the faith, some may practice it's rituals out of tradition or to be seen doing it, but few ever take the time to question whether they believe in the mythology of their faith. Many people in the UK or the US, when asked, will tell you they're Christians. To many, this is just because they were raised by people who called themselves Christians, or a result of being told they live in a "Christian country" or whatever. In reality, they're probably just saying it out of habit.
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