Valve Claims VR Motion Sickness is "Bullshit" - Blames Developers

[Steven Bogos]

Valve Claims VR Motion Sickness is "Bullshit" - Blames Developers

Valve's Chet Faliszek says that any motion sickness caused from VR is always an issue with the software, as the hardware is flawless.

Ever since VR started making waves with the Oculus Rift, the weak-stomached among us only had one question: "How sick is this thing gonna make me?" Indeed, my own expereince with the the Vive [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/previews/14640-Gear-VR-S6-Oculus-Rift-Crescent-Bay-Hands-On-Preview-TGS#&gid=gallery_4722&pid=1], has come out and said that the idea that VR must cause motion sickness is bullshit, placing the blame squarely on the software, rather than hardware.

"The idea that VR must get you sick is [bullshit]," Faliszek said at EGX last week. "We have people come in who don't want to do demos. In a party of ten people there will be someone who says, 'I'm gonna be sick, I'm gonna be sick, I can't do this.' That expectation is based on either what they've seen before or what they've heard."

But my, and countless others, experiences with VR have proven that it most certainly can cause motion sickness, to which Falisek explains: "It's no longer the hardware's fault any more. It's the developers making choices that are making you sick," urging us to "Tell them that you don't want that."

He especially points out that tying movement in a VR game to traditional gaming movement - the WASD keys or a thumbstick - is the biggest culprit of motion sickness, explaining that Valve's "lighthouse" system - which allows the user to move within a 5 metre by 5 metre space - is exponentially better.

This philosophy is part of the reason the Vive will ship bundled with it's own special trackable controllers, compared to the Rift and the PlayStation VR which will rely on customers to purchase special controllers themselves.

Source: Gamesindustry.biz [http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2015-09-28-valve-the-idea-that-vr-must-get-you-sick-is-bullshit]

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[sonicneedslovetoo]

I'm certain this will catch on if everybody has to clear out a 5 by 5 meter space near a computer for it to work, speaking of things that take up too much room how is the Kinect doing? Not so well because lots of people don't have living rooms THAT big without things like couches and coffee tables in them? Who'd have thunk.

In all seriousness how is clearing out a 5 by 5 meter space a solution? How do you move if you need to be outside that space, the games cant all be "escape the room" flash games after all. How do you manage the cables without stetting something into the ceiling or just trying not to trip on something you can't see? If the headset is battery powered how long does the battery last and how fast does it recharge? How many people are willing to drag their desktop tower into their special "VR holodeck" every time they use it or is that just going to regale VR to the same place everybody puts their 3ds 3d switches?

 

[dangoball]

"It's no longer the hardware's fault any more. It's the developers making choices that are making you sick,"
...
He especially points out that tying movement in a VR game to traditional gaming movement - the WASD keys or a thumbstick - is the biggest culprit of motion sickness...

So... it's the hardware's fault? Sure, maybe the headset is perfect (ha!), but compatibility of input/output devices is still a hardware issue, no? If current input devices just don't work with a VR headset without making at least someone sick, it's still something for the engineers to work out, not game devs.

But hey, blame game it is, cause Valve is faultless. I mean I like Steam and all, but for some reason it seems that as of late if anyone other than the one and only Gaben, Lord of the PC gaming master race, praise be unto him, makes any public announcement, Valve's PR department is on a break.

 

[NLS]

I'd like to chime in that he's got a point there.
I've spent countless of hours with my Oculus Rift strapped on in Elite: Dangerous without feeling a single thing. It works splendidly, as you can clearly see your virtual body sitting inside the cockpit of a spaceship. As long as you're aware of your body sitting still, while your vehicle/ship is moving, you're not gonna feel motion sickness at all, unless you also get sick while driving a car IRL. Driving games/simulators with a good seat view are the same, you feel aware of your body being inside something you control.

Meanwhile, playing Quake 2, HL2 or any other quick paced FPS with mouse controls is accurate, but your body is non-existent, you look down and there's nothing there. Running around and controlling your own body with keyboard/gamepad while keeping a good 1-1 head movement feels disorienting. I can play for about 15-20 minutes at a time before I need a pause, versus the many hours that can fly by in one sitting of Elite: Dangerous.

As long as the VR hardware specs are good, with high refresh rate and resolution plus latency free head tracking, it's up to the game developers to make sure the experience is pleasant.

 

[inmunitas]

"It's no longer the hardware's fault any more. It's the developers making choices that are making you sick,"
...
He especially points out that tying movement in a VR game to traditional gaming movement - the WASD keys or a thumbstick - is the biggest culprit of motion sickness...

So... it's the hardware's fault? Sure, maybe the headset is perfect (ha!), but compatibility of input/output devices is still a hardware issue, no? If current input devices just don't work with a VR headset without making at least someone sick, it's still something for the engineers to work out, not game devs.

But hey, blame game it is, cause Valve is faultless. I mean I like Steam and all, but for some reason it seems that as of late if anyone other than the one and only Gaben, Lord of the PC gaming master race, praise be unto him, makes any public announcement, Valve's PR department is on a break.

Hardware compatibility is a software issue, presumably he's referring to VR games that don't support motion controls and rely on more traditional input devices, or have gameplay mechanics/visual effects that simply don't work well in VR.

 

[Vigormortis]

Question to the OP: Why is bullshit in brackets? Is that actually what Chet said or is that what someone interpreted him to mean?

Chet is Valve's head PR guy. I don't see him being quite that crude with his language. I could be wrong, but this wouldn't be the first time a news post misquoted someone for dramatic effect.

So... it's the hardware's fault? Sure, maybe the headset is perfect (ha!), but compatibility of input/output devices is still a hardware issue, no? If current input devices just don't work with a VR headset without making at least someone sick, it's still something for the engineers to work out, not game devs.

I think you've misunderstood what he's saying. Specifically, Chet is referring to poor movement systems or wonky camera controls being programmed into the VR games/experiences.

What he's saying is, the issues with frame latency and screen stutter are no longer an issue with the coming hardware. These were the primary culprits in giving users motion sickness when using older versions of VR HMDs.

I'm certain this will catch on if everybody has to clear out a 5 by 5 meter space near a computer for it to work, speaking of things that take up too much room how is the Kinect doing? Not so well because lots of people don't have living rooms THAT big without things like couches and coffee tables in them? Who'd have thunk.

You do realize there's a dramatic difference in the technologies behind the Kinect and Lighthouse, right? They're not even on the same level, so I don't see the comparison you seem to be trying to make.

In all seriousness how is clearing out a 5 by 5 meter space a solution?

The space doesn't actually have to be 5x5 meters. It can be smaller. It can even be larger. (if one uses more than one pair of Lighthouse base stations)

How do you move if you need to be outside that space, the games cant all be "escape the room" flash games after all.

One dev is already experimenting with a 'port to' feature wherein the player chooses a new location and the game "teleports" the room-space to that location. Effectively allowing the user to move the room to whatever point they want in the game space. Think of it like the teleport power in Dishonored.

Others are experimenting with other ideas as well.

And again, there's still the possibility of linking multiple Lighthouse spaces together.

As for the danger of moving outside the Lighthouse room space, the system has a built safety feature that displays a grid-like wall inside the VR space, giving the player a sense of where the outer spaces and any potential real world obstacles are.

How do you manage the cables without stetting something into the ceiling or just trying not to trip on something you can't see?

A stand is an option, but for now the simplest solution is to minimize the number and size of the cables coming out of the headset. The final build of the Vive is said to have only one cable coming out the back.

For now, there's simply too much data that needs to be transferred to the HMD for it to be done wirelessly. Wireless option simply don't have the speed nor the bandwidth.

If the headset is battery powered how long does the battery last and how fast does it recharge?

They aren't battery powered.

How many people are willing to drag their desktop tower into their special "VR holodeck" every time they use it or is that just going to regale VR to the same place everybody puts their 3ds 3d switches?

With in-home streaming (for example, with the Steam Link) you won't need to "drag" your desktop to where ever you plan to setup and use your Lighthouse space. You can have the desktop in any room of the house and simply 'stream' the game to your VR space.

All that aside, you don't have to stand up and move around inside the VR space. You can use the Vive sitting down. It can function just like any of the other VR HMDs.

 

[Janichsan]

As long as you're aware of your body sitting still, while your vehicle/ship is moving, you're not gonna feel motion sickness at all, unless you also get sick while driving a car IRL.

That's not really true. What causes motion sickness is a disparity between the perceived motion by the eye and by the inner ear. You see motion, but the inner ear does not register it? That can cause motion sickness. Also the other way around: your inner ear perceives motion, but your eye does not? Motion sickness. The latter is the reason why you can get sea sick easier when under deck (without being able to see the horizon), or why you can get motion sickness while reading in a car.

The "virtual body" can help, but it's no sure-fire method to prevent motion sickness.

If you never experienced motion sickness with your Oculus, you are simply relatively little prone to motion sickness. Besides: Elite turns off head bobbing and shaking in VR mode, so that's also a big factor.

 

[Jadak]

Well, yeah... I mean, the software is the part that puts you in a virtual environment, so...yes? I don't think anyone ever really thought there was some issue intrinsic to the hardware.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I have a very high degree of spatial awareness, trying to fool my brain with "real" 3D is what causes the headaches for me, not nausea (I don't get that), just the headaches.

 

[JenSeven]

Normal 3D tv already gives me a massive migraine, so I'm actually curious how bad it gets for me with VR goggles.
And combine that with an eye defect that makes it near impossible for me to actually have normal depth perception in every day life, so yeah, that could be interesting.
So, let Valve contact me and we'll see if there is any truth in their claims.

 

[EndlessSporadic]

While I'd love to agree with Chet I feel like he is slightly passing off how motion sickness actually works. The reason people get motion sickness is because the visual input is different from the input picked up by the fluid in your ears (which is responsible for balance). He did mention that traditional motion controls are a huge culprit and while I do agree with that to a certain degree I don't believe the new system he is talking about will improve things much. As long as the user is put in a situation where "the world is not as it is in reality", this will always be an issue.

"The world is not as it is in reality" is defined as one or more of the following:

1) The orientation of the player in game is not the same as the orientation of the player in the physical world.
2) The horizon changes vertically without user input (either via camera or player orientation changes).
3) The camera turn degree angle is not 1:1 with the physical world (i.e. a turn of the head 1 degree does not turn 1 degree in the game).

Specifically with point 1 if there is some kind of unnatural movement, either via grappling hook or some similar mechanism, there will be motion sickness that comes with it. You can try to reduce the chances of it happening but it will always exist.

 

[tacotrainwreck]

The tool versus the user. It's just that same 'Guns don't kill people. People kill people' argument on a different platform.

'VR doesn't make people sick. People who make VR make people sick.'

 

[FoolKiller]

I have a very high degree of spatial awareness, trying to fool my brain with "real" 3D is what causes the headaches for me, not nausea (I don't get that), just the headaches.

Me too. I get sick from a lot of games. It's caused me to stop playing more than one game.

For those not in the know, the simple version of why some get nauseated is that the brain can't deal with the fact that your body says you're motionless while your eyes tell your brain that you're moving.

Having said that, it could actually be the software. Head bob and field of view are the two usual culprits that cause nausea.

 

[CrystalShadow]

I think I'm going to have to say...
No.

I mean, I get the point being made, but it turns it into an either/or thing, when in my experience (with the admittedly limited Oculus DK1], it is the combination of Software+Hardware that does it.

Simple example: The headset can do 90fps with low latency, but the dev chose to pile on too many visual effects, and the game only runs at 40 fps.

Probable result? Nausea.

Normal 3D tv already gives me a massive migraine, so I'm actually curious how bad it gets for me with VR goggles.
And combine that with an eye defect that makes it near impossible for me to actually have normal depth perception in every day life, so yeah, that could be interesting.
So, let Valve contact me and we'll see if there is any truth in their claims.

It's not comparable. I don't get sick from 3D tv, cinema or anything like that.
I have had some serious bouts of simulator sickness after even just 10-15 minutes of badly configured VR.

A key point is if you were to disable the 3D effect in VR (like, say, black out one eye) it would make no difference to how likely you are to get nauseous.

The main culprit with nausea in VR isn't the '3D effect' it's the difference between your actual head movements, and what your eyes see.

The headset does a fairly good job of tricking your brain into thinking the virtual scene is 'real'.

But, if your brain sees something which it thinks is 'real', but then has it's other senses (particularly balance) tell it something that contradicts what it's seeing, the end result is usually nausea.

A 3d TV won't cause that effect, because the TV, and the 3D content it displays are at a fixed point in space relative to you. If you move your head, the image you are seeing moves along with the rest of your environment.

With a VR headset if you were to disable tracking completely, you would feel your head move, but the image you see wouldn't change at all.
Not even a tiny bit.

And what does your body think that means? That you've ingested some kind of poison with hallucinogenic properties.
The natural response to that is to want to throw up the poison.
Even though there isn't any in this case.

Has nothing to do with 3D effects whatsoever.

Still, it makes for a very irritating problem.
And a lot of it is software, indeed.
But it really isn't going to be all or nothing.
The hardware and software interact, which causes the problems, in the end.

 

[Hairless Mammoth]

So, they blame developers for using input hardware that most people are likely to have, especially if many of those potential adopters could spend much of their disposable income on a VR headset and a machine to run the software? It makes sense to want to match the input to the output, but the way I'm reading this sounds kind of like blaming a dev for not making their game require the latest $1000 graphics card to run at low settings.

And their solution to that is to make a system that requires a large room, clear of obstacles, where the player moves around in real time. Advanced VR systems are already sounding pricey (Though, I understand it's emerging tech.), and Valve's way to beat motion sickness is to limit the potential install base down to the few who also have the floor space for the Vive. If that is the only solution the motion sickness issue, first person VR games might be limited to activity centers that rent out VR areas for a hour or two and enthusiasts with the space and money. Only applications where walking around with a headset on is useless would be viable without the 5m square space. I doubt that is the case, though. I think a Valve PR guy is just trying to sell his company's new product.

Clever programming of how a player's camera moves can probably eliminate the sickness issue in traditional VR systems for a lot of people with VR interests. At the same time, I'd bet a poorly made/ported game (or just a glitch that screws up the 1 to 1 tracking) for the lighthouse setup can easily make someone feel uneasy. I'll believe this statement from Valve when multiple VR offerings are on the market and independent groups can compare the Vive to other VR technology and they find the Vive's method is the best.

 

[Something Amyss]

On the one hand, it's a stupid comment. On the other hand, Valve can still do no wrong, right? So we must rewrite reality to fit within the framework the God-King GabeN has laid out.

(Before anyone says it, I know Gabe didn't say this. That wasn't what I said, either)

 

[MonsterCrit]

SPme logic to that. A headset isn't like a monitor, you really can't design for one in the exact same way.

 

[Ukomba]

This kind of thing has been know for decades when it came to motion simulators. The more instinctually familiar you are with the environment being simulated the worse the motion sickness if the visual stimuli don't match the physical. A professional pilot, for example, would get motion sick in a flight simulator that wasn't matching the feel of the aircraft well. For something as simple as looking around, everyone has a high gain on how it should feel.

There is also a sort of uncanny valley issue here when a motion kind of but not quite mimics your own movement. I wonder what the term for that is/will be.

 

[Sarge034]

Valve's Chet Faliszek says that any motion sickness caused from VR is always an issue with the software, as the hardware is flawless.

And right there is where his credibility reaches 0. Nothing is flawless and the fact he not only works for Valve but is also talking about something HE helped make only adds to the obvious bias. Weak sauce story is weak sauce.

It's not the software or the controller making people sick, it's the fact that the eye is being told it's moving but the inner ear isn't. A 5x5 "get your ass up and move too" space will alleviate the sickness but you'll still get kindda lightheaded or dizzy because the inputs are still going to be different.