Valve Claims VR Motion Sickness is "Bullshit" - Blames Developers

[Steve the Pocket]

Blatant self-aggrandizement aside, it seems awfully hypocritical for someone from Valve to be criticizing other developers for making games that cause motion sickness, since I've heard plenty of reports from people saying that Valve's games are the only ones that have ever caused them to get motion sick. And that was before VR entered the equation.

Question to the OP: Why is bullshit in brackets? Is that actually what Chet said or is that what someone interpreted him to mean?

I too am wondering about this. It's the only word in quotes in the title, but then it's bracketed out in the actual quote. So did he use the word in a line that doesn't appear in the article, or what?

 

[Vigormortis]

Valve's Chet Faliszek says that any motion sickness caused from VR is always an issue with the software, as the hardware is flawless.

And right there is where his credibility reaches 0. Nothing is flawless and the fact he not only works for Valve but is also talking about something HE helped make only adds to the obvious bias. Weak sauce story is weak sauce.

I re-read the article here and at the Gameindustry.biz site, and even read through some of the related articles, but I have yet to find that quote.

If you can point me to it I'd appreciate it. He's being absurd for making such a claim.

I too am wondering about this. It's the only word in quotes in the title, but then it's bracketed out in the actual quote. So did he use the word in a line that doesn't appear in the article, or what?

Well, given that this article is taken almost verbatim from the Gameindustry.biz article I doubt Mr. Bogos can shed any light on this question.

I'm also noticing that some are taking Chet's comments out of context when reporting on the story. What his EGX speech explained was that the inherent limitations of older VR hardware (that lead to motion sickness) are no longer an issue. It now comes down almost entirely to how developers utilize the hardware.

He never said the hardware was perfect, nor that Valve is exempt from these coding issues. All he said was that the hardware-centric issues of motion sickness have been addressed.

Whether it's true or not I can't say but, given the advances made with the technology in the last three years, I'm not ready to call his claim bullshit by default.

I remain skeptical, but open-minded.

 

[Gennadios]

@Vigormortis I'm not sure if that lengthy post of game space setup clusterfuckery was meant to be a defense of the system or not, but that was the anti-sales pitch of the century.

This might be the first time I've heard Chet Faliszek in a decade, and all I can think of is how much I miss oldmanmurray.

 

[truckspond]

They make a good point. A good VR experience is going to keep you seated and have mechanisms to prevent the virtual chair from moving while the physical chair remains stationary because unless you have that VR treadmill thing you will be seated. This way you don't get the dissonance with your eyes telling you one thing and your sense of balance telling you another. That very same mechanism is responsible for sea sickness in real life.

 

[Vigormortis]

@Vigormortis I'm not sure if that lengthy post of game space setup clusterfuckery was meant to be a defense of the system or not, but that was the anti-sales pitch of the century.

This might be the first time I've heard Chet Faliszek in a decade, and all I can think of is how much I miss oldmanmurray.

You know you can just click the "Quote" button to respond to my posts, right? You've been here since 2009 so I assume you do. Responding with the "Quote" button alerts me to your comment. Doing it the way you've done it is tantamount to talking to yourself. The only reason I even saw your comment was because I thought I'd made a spelling error in my other post and came back to check.

And I'm curious, what is it exactly that you're taking issue with in my post? Your comment is confusing. Part of it even sounds like an insult.

Mind elaborating?

 

[Strazdas]

i doubt hardware is flawless, but motion sickness is most definitely a software issue. First of all its a framerate issue (as in unstable or low framerate causes motion sickness, which is why sonys VR is going to fail regardless of the tech and why smartphone VR is shit in comparison). the rest os entirely dependent on software design. head bobbing for one is a massive cause of this if your mind does not get tricked into thinking your head is bobbing, which it likely wont be sitting on a chair. This is why VR works for "strapped in a cabin" style fames (Elite, racing games, ect) and doesnot work for FPS games.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

"Flawless", huh? So I guess they're ready to ship their systems out for mass marketing, right?

I mean, I'm sure that bad mechanics can be a problem, seeing as I just tried to get back to Dead Island and almost immediately got a headache from all the camera swinging, but I think Mr. PR man is ruining his own credibility by trying to sell his weird "basically a Kinect that's not shit" gimmick in the middle of that statement.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I was worried for a moment this is an actual lead tech guy of their but he is their PR/writer guy, and he told you exactly what a PR guy is suppose to tell you: "Everything of ours is perfect and our particular tech makes it so!"

Ofcourse the bloody hardware isn't perfect, but neither is software, and it doesn't even take VR to induce simulation sickness in some people.
"Oh but you can walk around the room..." and do what exactly? For that shit to be all you need we require a new genre called post box shooter, because that is about the space your average player will have.

Valve stick your writer guy back into his writing booth, we don't need more "30 fps is so cinematic" donkeys running loose.

 

[Gennadios]

And I'm curious, what is it exactly that you're taking issue with in my post?

No real issue with the post, I was reading about SteamVR for the first time, picturing setting up the border pylons or whatever those things look like, and then running around a 5x5 room like a hamster, in-game teleporting to other 5x5 grids so I dont have to move too far. And I saw in my mind the future of flight, driving, and walking simulators, and no real use for other genres.

 

[Lightknight]

*sigh* Isn't this a hardware issue then? The current hardware setup doesn't allow for easy tracking and the hardware that let's us move on an omnidirectional treadmill is hellaexpensive.

So developers are opting to do the best they can and let us sit on our ass. I can't imagine how tired a game like Oblivion would make me.

 

[Vigormortis]

No real issue with the post, I was reading about SteamVR for the first time, picturing setting up the border pylons or whatever those things look like,

Lighthouse is two small boxes, each small enough to fit in your hand.

Spoiler: Here are the much larger prototype versions of the base units. The final consumer version should be much smaller.

and then running around a 5x5 room like a hamster, in-game teleporting to other 5x5 grids so I dont have to move too far. And I saw in my mind the future of flight, driving, and walking simulators, and no real use for other genres.

That just seems like a failure of imagination, if you don't mind my saying. Already there are numerous devs working on strategy games, puzzle games, SIM games, god games, adventure/RPG games, and a host of other titles in a wide range of genres.

There are short lists here [http://www.roadtovr.com/category/htc-vive-compatible-games/] and here [https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/wiki/games_and_experiences] of a few of the known titles coming to the Vive. Those lists aren't complete as they exclude a number of other known titles as well as excluding 'officially' unannounced titles and whatever the projects are that Valve says they are working on in-house.

But look, all of that aside, I'm not saying you have to like the idea of VR nor that you have to accept its existence within the industry (hell, you're free to hate it for all I care), but to blithely dismiss its potential just because you personally don't see many ways in which the technology can be used seems a bit hasty to me.

On a final note: There are already experiments being done with the tech to eliminate the wires from the setup. One solution being tested is placing the computing hardware needed into a backpack which the user wears along with the HMD and hand controllers. This removes the need for wires entirely since it leaves all of the required tech either on the user or allows any remote devices to communicate wirelessly, including the the Lighthouse units. The only issue remaining is power, which...frankly....is a big one.

i doubt hardware is flawless, but motion sickness is most definitely a software issue. First of all its a framerate issue (as in unstable or low framerate causes motion sickness, which is why sonys VR is going to fail regardless of the tech and why smartphone VR is shit in comparison). the rest os entirely dependent on software design. head bobbing for one is a massive cause of this if your mind does not get tricked into thinking your head is bobbing, which it likely wont be sitting on a chair. This is why VR works for "strapped in a cabin" style fames (Elite, racing games, ect) and doesnot work for FPS games.

I was starting to wonder if anyone actually understood the crux of Chet's argument.

 

[Vigormortis]

*sigh* Isn't this a hardware issue then? The current hardware setup doesn't allow for easy tracking and the hardware that let's us move on an omnidirectional treadmill is hellaexpensive.

Huh? Which hardware are you referring to that doesn't allow for easy tracking? Oculus' setup tracks it's HMD and hand units fairly accurately and Valve's Lighthouse system is accurate down to sub-millimeter units.

Are you talking about PlaystationVR?[footnote]I still don't know why Sony dropped the Morpheus moniker. It was catchy.[/footnote]

 

[Sarge034]

I re-read the article here and at the Gameindustry.biz site, and even read through some of the related articles, but I have yet to find that quote.

If you can point me to it I'd appreciate it. He's being absurd for making such a claim.

I went no further then the OP (though I guess "original" is a stretch) as I don't really give a shit enough to check beyond it. So either the article is shit, which is very possible seeing the state of the escapist "news", or he said it. Idk.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

He especially points out that tying movement in a VR game to traditional gaming movement - the WASD keys or a thumbstick - is the biggest culprit of motion sickness, explaining that Valve's "lighthouse" system - which allows the user to move within a 5 metre by 5 metre space - is exponentially better.

Oh, well that's okay then. Never mind the fact that even if I removed every single piece of furniture from my apartment along with all the internal walls, I would barely have enough space in one direction, let alone two. My apartment is roughly the shape and size of a shipping container.

As for this business with controls, from everything I've read it seems like they're pitching this with motion controls. I know that this is supposed to get us excited for VR, since they've apparently fixed the motion sickness, but saying that traditional controls are an inherent problem with VR has done far more to dampen what little enthusiasm I had for the technology. Call me stubborn, but I'm not dreaming of the days when I can play the VR equivalent of Wii Sports. Before people take offence to that, understand that I don't personally have any problem with the existence of motion controlled games, and I think you're welcome to enjoy them if that's your thing, but I have no interest in these types of games. I was already rather iffy about VR even in its best of hypothetical forms, what with the annoying and expensive headset, and the sensory deprivation. If it's motion controls or sickness, then I chose my regular monitors thank you very much.

Wake me up when they invent a VR system that allows me to use a keyboard and mouse or controller without my entire apartment smelling of vomit.

 

[Vigormortis]

I went no further then the OP (though I guess "original" is a stretch) as I don't really give a shit enough to check beyond it. So either the article is shit, which is very possible seeing the state of the escapist "news", or he said it. Idk.

Me neither. There seems to be a lot of misquoted lines in the article.

The more I dug the more this all felt like another click-bait-y story. Take someone's comment about the state of the technology, blow it out of proportions, and let the bickering commence.

Wouldn't be the first time from this 'contributor'.

Oh, well that's okay then. Never mind the fact that even if I removed every single piece of furniture from my apartment along with all the internal walls, I would barely have enough space in one direction, let alone two. My apartment is roughly the shape and size of a shipping container.

The thing people seem to be misunderstanding is that Lighthouse doesn't have to utilize a 5m by 5m space to work. Smaller spaces are fine. And more over, the Vive doesn't have to use Lighthouse to function as a VR HMD.

As for this business with controls, from everything I've read it seems like they're pitching this with motion controls. I know that this is supposed to get us excited for VR, since they've apparently fixed the motion sickness, but saying that traditional controls are an inherent problem with VR has done far more to dampen what little enthusiasm I had for the technology. Call me stubborn, but I'm not dreaming of the days when I can play the VR equivalent of Wii Sports. Before people take offence to that, understand that I don't personally have any problem with the existence of motion controlled games, and I think you're welcome to enjoy them if that's your thing, but I have no interest in these types of games. I was already rather iffy about VR even in its best of hypothetical forms, what with the annoying and expensive headset, and the sensory deprivation. If it's motion controls or sickness, then I chose my regular monitors thank you very much.

There's a dramatic difference between the hand controls coupled with the Vive (and Rift and PSVR) and the Wii-motes. They're not even built around the same technology. Not even the most basic foundation of each tracking system is similar.

The wii-motes used rather primitive IR triangulation, abysmal tilt sensors, and barely functional accelerometers to track the controllers movements. The Vive's hand devices use the Lighthouse tracking system, which provides true 1-to-1 movement in a 3D space down to sub-millimeter accuracy. They're not "motion controls", they're literally your hands in the VR space. Where ever you move your hand, that's where it goes in the VR space. You're not spazzing out, flailing your arms, in the hopes that the game recognizes a movement.

The difference is the equivalent of trying to perform open heart surgery with your tools dangling from marionette strings (Wii-motes) or your actual hands holding the tools(Lighthouse, etc).

Wake me up when they invent a VR system that allows me to use a keyboard and mouse or controller without my entire apartment smelling of vomit.

Those...already exist? Hell, I've played Elite: Dangerous with a K&B on a colleague's Rift DK1. That was the point of Chet's presentation at EGX. Explaining that the issues have been addressed and that it now comes down to how the software is coded.

 

[Gennadios]

But look, all of that aside, I'm not saying you have to like the idea of VR nor that you have to accept its existence within the industry (hell, you're free to hate it for all I care), but to blithely dismiss its potential just because you personally don't see many ways in which the technology can be used seems a bit hasty to me.

As far as VR goes, when theres a chip that can be embedded into my brain that can produce a dreamlike state with all the latest games, I'll be the first person to go under the knife.

I'm not displaying imagination because stuff that's being shown has all been done before. "Now in glorious HD" will not solve the core failures of the motion sensors and baby walker harnesses and headsets of yore..

The human body is a bulky, slow, and terrible controller. If you work a terrible menial job, at the end of the day you want intense firefights and brawls to be as physically undemanding as possible. When I do want to be active, I have my DDR mat and I dont see a headset adding to the experience.

 

[Dragonbums]

I'm sorry but there will always be an issue of motion sickenss regardless of how much of it is the fault of the game devs and the hardware.

At the end of the day it's the disparity between you knowing your not moving but your brain is insisting that your moving. As long as the VR consists of moving within internal screens someone is going to get motion sick. With proper programming and hardware you can greatly diminish how many people will get motion sick, but it won't ever go away.

Quite frankly I don't think I would get motion sickness. But I can feel myself getting a headache if I play it for too long. I also just don't like being unable to see my environment in peripheral while doing anything. You have to be in complete control of your surroundings and sometimes this just isn't possible.

 

[Vigormortis]

As far as VR goes, when theres a chip that can be embedded into my brain that can produce a dreamlike state with all the latest games, I'll be the first person to go under the knife.

I 'unno. I'm a futurist/transhumanist and all that, but the idea of having a chip implanted in my head, a chip from today's game makers, just seems.....

Ew.

Oh gods, just imagine...EA and Activision could project day-1 DLC ads directly into your brain....

I'm not displaying imagination because stuff that's being shown has all been done before. "Now in glorious HD" will not solve the core failures of the motion sensors and baby walker harnesses and headsets of yore..

But the tech being shown now isn't the "harnesses and headsets of yore". They are a quantum leap (pardon the idiotic jargon) ahead of the VR tech from they 90's and early 00's. The tech uses entirely new methods of rendering and tracking that the old devices could never have done.

This isn't like a new, shinier version of the old engine. This is the Saturn-V rocket to the first steam locomotive.

And I'm not sure where you've been looking, but outside of lofty promises of crappy movies from the 80's and 90's I've never seen anyone demonstrate technology that functions like Lighthouse and it's ilk do. In fact, outside of science fiction, I can't think of a single instance where this tech existed.

If I'm wrong, please enlighten me. I'm fascinated by the progression of VR tech, so learning of a part of its history I was unaware of would be fantastic.

The human body is a bulky, slow, and terrible controller. If you work a terrible menial job, at the end of the day you want intense firefights and brawls to be as physically undemanding as possible. When I do want to be active, I have my DDR mat and I dont see a headset adding to the experience.

You still seem to be conflating the hand devices being used by the Vive, etc, with the abysmally inaccurate devices used by the Wii and it's ilk. They aren't just on different levels, they're on different worlds.

The Wii-mote could barely tell if you were tilting your hand left or right. Devices like Lighthouse can tell when something moves a fraction of a millimeter in any direction within a 3D space.

But even so, as I'd said before, you can still use the Vive, Rift, and PSVR without having to stand up and walk about. You can just sit in a chair and look around. Hell, if you want to be completely lazy, you don't even need to move your head.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

All that said, I'm not trying to convince you to love VR. I'm not trying to sell you on the coming products and I'm not trying to 'convert' you. All I'm saying is: A lot of progress has been made with the technology and having tried the Rift and Lighthouse personally I can attest to many of the claims being made by Valve, HTC, Oculus, and Sony. It's up to you to decide if you're willing or unwilling to try these devices when they launch. Either choice is a valid one.

Still, I personally believe a combination of VR and AR is the real future of the technology. However, despite the lofty promises of HoloLens, AR is still a long way off from truly viable.