287: Second-Hand Elf

[Jonas Kyratzes]

Second-Hand Elf

Videogame designers should embrace the opportunity to give us new worlds, rather than relying on watered-down Tolkien and Lovecraft.

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[Vault101]

Very good point, this is what tends to turn me off fantasy in general to an outsider it looks like the same as lord of the rings and I'm not even such a fan of LOTR (But I do LOVE dragon age)

 

[Throwitawaynow]

Lets not leave the Elves in Middle-Earth, maybe we should leave them in Ireland. The Tuatha de Danann?

 

[Rawle Lucas]

Very good point, this is what tends to turn me off fantasy in general to an outsider it looks like the same as lord of the rings and I'm not even such a fan of LOTR (But I do LOVE dragon age)

Agreed. If I seek a fantastic story, similarity to LOTR turns me off too, though I am a big fan of Fire Emblem (I like that series in spite of it's setting, not because of it -- mostly because it uses monsters sparingly.)

 

[Petromir]

Everyone borrows from somewhere, even Tolkien. That doesnt excuse poor rehashes of existing ideas, but dismissing something because its reused an idea, while holding up a masterpiece that has done just that is foolish.

Theres pleanty of good things that borrow from other places, if its done well it can create some fine works, of which the Lord of The Rings demonstrates well.

Using and imitating are different matters, borrow by all means, but make it your own rather than attempting a homage or a faxcimile, as that will likley fail.

The other thing is to develope your charecters, races and other ideas, even if you don't intend on putting them in. So many IPs are poor because they just cut and copy races, without their own identites.

 

[CaptainStupid]

Yes, but creating a new world that rivals all those Lord of the Rings ripoffs requres time and effort. Developers are intellectually lazy, or under the pressure of deadlines, which makes the ripoff route an obvious path to choose. Human nature does not change (pick the path of least resistance), so the solution is for consumers to stop buying "me too" Lord of the Rings knock-offs.

 

[Yelchor]

It was mentioned that Elves in the Elder Scrolls franschise was somehow better than other interpretations of Elves after The Lord of The Rings, from what I understand. I haven't played that serie enough to understand what was reffered to, though I have played Dragon Age which was among the "copy/pasting" ones in this article apparently. Why? I found the concept of an oppressed, second-class people to be quite refreshing. It added tension.

Come to think of it, Dragon Age is the first and only real fantasy RPG in a western-medieval setting that I have played so far. But the issues addressed here have been obvious many times over for anyone. One should indeed spend more time on creating a unique setting, that is still recognizable in its own way once you've settled within the world it offers you to experience.

It is disappointing to see games where they're lazy and just go with the whole "Dwarf: scottish accent. Elf: flower protector. Orc: rawr smash. And so on..." thing. It's quite a common business strategy, which is the drawback due to money playing such a huge roll in it. If they make it look like The Lord of the Rings, maybe some clueless consumers will provide with cash should you market it enough.

 

[Grouchy Imp_v1legacy]

Videogame designers should embrace the opportunity to give us new worlds, rather than relying on watered-down Tolkien and Lovecraft.

My personal favourite re-imagining of stereotypes in the Elder Scrolls is the case of the Dwemer - Tamriel's 'dwarves' that are in fact a species of subterrainian elf. That was one of the things I loved about Morrowind - the different creatures like Nix Hounds and Kagouti. It was such a shame to see Bethesda go back to Minotaurs and Trolls in Oblivion. Unfortunately, 'generic' sells better than 'creative' because more people recognise (and are therefore more comfortable with) it. Oh well...

 

[SamElliot'sMustache]

It's curious that you included Lovecraft's cosmic beings in the article in the same vein as Tolkien's elves, because there has been an explosion of Cthulhu-esque imagery popping up in the last ten (maybe twenty?) years. Unfortunately, most of those uses miss the whole point of Lovecraft by treating them as yet another beast (yet the so-called "fans" eat it up, because...well, "Hey, look! It's Cthulhu! Yay!").

I'm not against borrowing concepts from other stories, especially if you can bring something unique to it, but it's getting to the point nowadays where it just devalues the original work.

 

[kingcom]

Maybe its because its 1am here at the moment but am I the only one who finds it kinda counter productive to have an article about blame reproductions of tropes and then have pictures of some of the more unique elves they've done in a while (okay fine the dragon age elves are straight from a Game of Thrones style though I would hardly call that standard) but I don't exactly call the race of addicts who depend on feeding thier own addiction in order to defend themselves to be stock standard. Maybe they are supposed to be ironic and Im just too tired to get it but they stuck out so much I felt the article itself was a bit silly.

 

[Loonerinoes]

Let's not forget that the only race Tolkien invented were the Hobbits. The Elves, Dwarves, Trolls and Goblins all came frm Germanic myths. Orcs? Orc or Orch were just Elven words for Goblin. Remember Thorin's sword? Orcrist, the Goblin Cleaver. Tolkien never claiemd to have invented them, but he personalized the, fleshed them out with his own history and color. It's ok to use Elves. Just make them unique. Don't make them Tolkien Elves. Deffinately don't make then D&D Elves.

I wish people would keep this much in mind whenever screaming "UNORIGINAL". Though I'd go even a step further...

Not to say that I wouldn't prefer to see a bit more of a diverse array of fantasy worlds...but you know what? I loved the Warcraft universe and its standard tropes just fine during the time of Warcraft RTSes. I liked it, because with Warcraft 3 they decided to spin it into a direction that I was genuinely invested in.

I also ultimately liked the Dragon Age universe, because for all the crying about the many tropes it borrowed (moreso from Thrones as was mentioned before), it also surprised me with things like Broodmothers or Awakening's final decision and actually giving the Darkspawn some context as opposed to just painting them in the style that I saw Orcs presented in LOTR (ala THEY'RE EVIL! PURE MINDLESS EVIL THAT WAS ONCE GOOD!).

For me art is ultimately about exploring something unfamiliar or about exploring familiar themes in a different way. So there is nothing wrong with a universe starting with the familiar. What is wrong, however, is that you don't take that universe somewhere genuinely interesting. And that is something that can only be shown time and again rather than through an in-depth critique of a single example.

So please...withold your thunderous judgements and cries of "YOU STOLE THAT FROM X" next time. It's getting moreso tiresome than the unoriginal approaches you criticize tbh.

 

[jez29]

My personal favourite re-imagining of stereotypes in the Elder Scrolls is the case of the Dwemer - Tamriel's 'dwarves' that are in fact a species of subterrainian elf. That was one of the things I loved about Morrowind - the different creatures like Nix Hounds and Kagouti. It was such a shame to see Bethesda go back to Minotaurs and Trolls in Oblivion. Unfortunately, 'generic' sells better than 'creative' because more people recognise (and are therefore more comfortable with) it. Oh well...

I agree with you that Oblivion was something of a backward step in terms of originality, but it was good to see Bethesda experimenting in the Shivering Isles expansion pack, though that was still nothing next to Morrowind. Your point about 'generic' selling better than 'creative' also stands, but Bethesda have gained such a following through Oblivion and Fallout that whatever they release will sell. With TES V Skyrim they have a real chance to create a unique world in the vein of Morrowind that will also be a commercial success.

On the article itself, its always been the way of art to imitate and improve on what's gone before, be it in music, literature, film or games. Tolkien had his sources and those before him had theirs. Originality isn't about creating something brand new, but fusing older elements together with fresh ideas to make a new mixture.
That said, in today's market-driven world art must sell, which has put something of a premium on creativity. Dragon Age is used in the argument as an example of over-reliance on 'classic fantasy', yet this is a game that not only sold well but received extremely good reviews. Sure, the world wasn't the most original, but it was very well implemented and so people loved it. This is no criticism of reviewers or consumers, since its impossible to tell within a week of release whether any artwork is truly 'great'. In my opinion, Dragon Age will be largely forgotten in the future (I'm talking 50-100+ years from now when there has been time for real critical appreciation), whereas games like Planescape: Torment and Morrowind will be remembered, not because they were 'unique', but because they were 'unique enough', whilst also being supremely well crafted.

Random musings over. Did any of the above make sense?

 

[Nocta-Aeterna]

Lets not leave the Elves in Middle-Earth, maybe we should leave them in Ireland. The Tuatha de Danann?

Weren't Tolkien's elves based on Norse mythology?

OT: It would be nice to see a fantasy setting with only minor influences of others, but it takes time and dedication to create one that's vibrant and believable.

I remember reading the Sovereign Stone, which also had the Tolkien species of humans/elves/dwarves/orks but significantly different. It's been some time ago, so I had to look some things up on how they were organised. The orks are a seafaring people and engineers, and not evil. They are actually on pretty good terms with the rest. Dwarves are horsemen nomads instead of miners. The elves are political schemers with a dash of east-asian society mixed in.

Speaking of elves, it would be nice to once see them as the evil conquerors with a total alien set of morals, but without all the Drow backstabbing.

 

[Loonerinoes]

My personal favourite re-imagining of stereotypes in the Elder Scrolls is the case of the Dwemer - Tamriel's 'dwarves' that are in fact a species of subterrainian elf. That was one of the things I loved about Morrowind - the different creatures like Nix Hounds and Kagouti. It was such a shame to see Bethesda go back to Minotaurs and Trolls in Oblivion. Unfortunately, 'generic' sells better than 'creative' because more people recognise (and are therefore more comfortable with) it. Oh well...

I agree with you that Oblivion was something of a backward step in terms of originality, but it was good to see Bethesda experimenting in the Shivering Isles expansion pack, though that was still nothing next to Morrowind. Your point about 'generic' selling better than 'creative' also stands, but Bethesda have gained such a following through Oblivion and Fallout that whatever they release will sell. With TES V Skyrim they have a real chance to create a unique world in the vein of Morrowind that will also be a commercial success.

On the article itself, its always been the way of art to imitate and improve on what's gone before, be it in music, literature, film or games. Tolkien had his sources and those before him had theirs. Originality isn't about creating something brand new, but fusing older elements together with fresh ideas to make a new mixture.
That said, in today's market-driven world art must sell, which has put something of a premium on creativity. Dragon Age is used in the argument as an example of over-reliance on 'classic fantasy', yet this is a game that not only sold well but received extremely good reviews. Sure, the world wasn't the most original, but it was very well implemented and so people loved it. This is no criticism of reviewers or consumers, since its impossible to tell within a week of release whether any artwork is truly 'great'. In my opinion, Dragon Age will be largely forgotten in the future (I'm talking 50-100+ years from now when there has been time for real critical appreciation), whereas games like Planescape: Torment and Morrowind will be remembered, not because they were 'unique', but because they were 'unique enough', whilst also being supremely well crafted.

Random musings over. Did any of the above make sense?

It certainly made sense I think. I dunno what game will be 'moreso remembered' in the future, but as I said - it also depends on future iterations of the same universe. Planescape: Torment got only one iteration, but it was unique as heck and fairly well executed too so - it was remembered. DA:O was certainly nowhere near as original, but as I said...it's a matter of time and if they decide to do something interesting with it with DA2 I suppose. Isn't that kinda their whole theme? About 'change' driving it? I say give it a bit of time and judge over time...

Certainly moreso preferrable to the THUNDEROUS JUDGEMENTS that so many like to throw about the internet like they're part of the opposing personal army or as if they're these high-browed intellectuals who have the right to tell everyone else what's best. *sigh*

 

[DannibalG36]

I think I just cried tears of joy upon realizing that someone else had bothered to read the Silmarillion.

 

[Jumwa]

It was mentioned that Elves in the Elder Scrolls franschise was somehow better than other interpretations of Elves after The Lord of The Rings, from what I understand. I haven't played that serie enough to understand what was reffered to, though I have played Dragon Age which was among the "copy/pasting" ones in this article apparently. Why? I found the concept of an oppressed, second-class people to be quite refreshing. It added tension.

Morrowind was very much a trip through the land of the Dunmer, experiencing their own second-class status. They lost their independence to the Cyrodiilians and now, divided into numerous factions, they squabble and plot against the Empire and each other immersed in their own poverty and impotence while clinging desperately to their old ways.

You saw the tribal Dunmer of the Ashlands, the mighty Telvanni wizards in their giant spiraling fungal towers. Rode giant skittering bugs, their shells partly hollowed out for the driver to sit and manipulate their brains. Saw the halls of Ald'ruhn built beneath the shell of some giant ancient mudcrab and housing the noble but downtrodden House Redoran warriors.

Like the author of this article said, Morrowind wasn't perfect, but it was an extremely good breath of fresh air. From the bonemould armour crafted from the carapaces of Morrowind's bizarre insect creatures to the rusting metal ruins of the extinct Dwemer it was quite a curious adventure.

 

[Jumwa]

I think I just cried tears of joy upon realizing that someone else had bothered to read the Silmarillion.

I always keep a copy of the Silmarillion on my computer desk for some inspiration when RPGing or crafting new characters and stories.

Whoso hideth or hoardeth a Silmaril, this swear us both brother:
Death we will deal him ere Day?s ending, woe unto world?s end!

 

[Deviluk]

I've always been annoyed that Santa has 'elves'. They're not elves. Will Ferrell is not an Elf. That film should've had Orlando Bloom skipping around NYC, shooting hobos with his bow and saying vague things about the meaning of the countenance of the sky.

But seriously, yes! I think this is partly why they took fantasy elements into sci-fi, so that there is more to play with, but still has the core goodness.