291: Secrets of the Guild

[Plurralbles]

shouldn't the goals and work of the SMU program for game design be the kind of thing ALL schools all over the world in EVERY field should be doing?

This is supremely frustrating.

What do I get for a BA in economics in four years? A fucking piece of paper. What do they get in 2? 1-5 year industry experience.

Bullshit.

 

[Nutcase]

@Nutcase - Out curiousity. Do you now or did you ever work in the digital game industry? Do you still work in it? Did you work for more than one employer or on more than one project?Has your life actually been damaged by "crunch?" Do you have stories you can share? You don't need to out yourself or reveal employer specific details.

I have worked in mobile games and a middleware company. I currently do non-game application development under tight deadlines. I have never been in crunch mode and would not work in a company where it was the norm. I can understand unforeseen circumstances leading to people doing 60 hours for a few weeks or something, but even then of course I would expect to be fully compensated for it. In my current work it's rare we do overtime at all.

Like I said, research shows that over a longer time anything over 50 hours per week doesn't even help in producing more. It's merely stupid for everyone involved.

I choose to work in the game industry. It's what I know and love and has been my career long enough for me to be one of those clueless old-timers. Every digital game development company that I have ever worked for has required some kind of crunch time, ranging from scheduled pushes at the end of a milestone deadline, to months-long unmanaged "death marches" brought on by poor decision making. I don't love EXTENDED crunch periods, but managed crunch time not only can bring in projects under deadline (or ensure that features are completed, rather than dropped), but can also be a morale builder, if handled properly.

I have worked and made people work long periods under all kinds of stress, sleep deprivation and overall discomfort. That was in the army, and it had a purpose: teaching people mental toughness with which to maintain minimal effectiveness in crappy circumstances which cannot be prevented. Anything other than that is most efficiently done in full health and comfort, fully rested and fed. There are no truly uncontrollable circumstances in software development, just unprofessionalism and fuck-ups.

Frankly, it sounds to me like Guildhall is perpetuating low expectations and stupid ways of working for no reason, and in doing so, setting up its students for exploitation.

 

[BizRodian]

Sounds like tuition would cost more money than I'll likely ever see.

It's actually a good idea. If you go to school to get into an industry, that school should be like the industry. This is true in any field, but especially in something like game design of which so much skill is based on actual experience. This makes people who are very good in this industry field. Does this mean it makes good game designers? It's not the same thing. But I'm sure it produces more than its fair share.

If crunch is a standard in the industry, it would be against Guildhall's purpose to not include it in the program. Too bad that by including it, it does in some way condone it.

 

[teh_Canape]

Why does this place have to all the way down it Texas?

better question:

why does this place have to be all the way up in USA?

 

[bobisimo]

... research shows that over a longer time anything over 50 hours per week doesn't even help in producing more. It's merely stupid for everyone involved. ... perpetuating low expectations and stupid ways of working for no reason, and in doing so, setting up its students for exploitation.

I've worked in the industry for many years and am now an instructor at a similar game school, and I agree with you completely. People within the industry need to fight the senseless practice of "crunch" and work toward creating more efficient practices and better-organized scheduling. Every time a team has an extended crunch, it shows the project has undergone failures. I warn my students that crunch is a likely possibility, but I don't force them to endure it in preparation of that possibility. I'd rather spend my time encouraging them to help the industry grow in its maturity and stability by resisting antiquated conventions, and educate them on all the reasons why crunch doesn't work.

 

[Jumplion]

I am an aspiring film director/video game director (either one is fine to me, hoenstly), so I will definitely look into this school.

Some other posters do raise a good point, however, with the "crunch time"mentality. In my opinion, I think the games industry needs a good overhaul in it's development procedure. As far as I know, there is no "Pre/Pro/Post-Production" procedure system in video games. There's "Alpha/Beta/Gold" phases, but those steps and what happens in them can vary drastically from developer to developer. Having to constantly to "crunch time" doesn't make for a good situation.

 

[Nutcase]

It's actually a good idea. If you go to school to get into an industry, that school should be like the industry. This is true in any field

Nope.

If crunch is a standard in the industry, it would be against Guildhall's purpose to not include it in the program. Too bad that by including it, it does in some way condone it.

Wrong. You can't learn to be a "better cruncher". All it means is staying at work stupidly late and not getting paid for it. What can be taught is scheduling and project planning that prevents having to overwork at the end.

If the school is resigned to the idea that its students will crunch in the future no matter what, then what the school should do to prepare them is to teach them normally, plus train their physical fitness because that, unlike "practicing crunching", actually helps to lessen the effects of stress and fatigue. Only slightly, but still.

 

[Nutcase]

I've worked in the industry for many years and am now an instructor at a similar game school, and I agree with you completely. People within the industry need to fight the senseless practice of "crunch" and work toward creating more efficient practices and better-organized scheduling. Every time a team has an extended crunch, it shows the project has undergone failures. I warn my students that crunch is a likely possibility, but I don't force them to endure it in preparation of that possibility. I'd rather spend my time encouraging them to help the industry grow in its maturity and stability by resisting antiquated conventions, and educate them on all the reasons why crunch doesn't work.

Thank you for the work you do for your students and the industry as a whole.

I believe it's also important for game developers to have a good idea about what the wages, working conditions and best practices for someone of their skillset are outside the game industry. No matter how much you love games, if things are bad enough, jumping ship is likely the most effective way to both improve your conditions and force the studio to think about changing their ways.

 

[Drake_Dercon]

... Two years left of high school. Must continue superior grade average. Must get into good university. Must fucking ace development course.

Must attend this school.

 

[Jumplion]

... Two years left of high school. Must continue superior grade average. Must get into good university. Must fucking ace development course.

Must attend this school.

Boy, you've just listed all of my concerns in a good 3 statements >_< God, the future never slows the fuck down, does it?

 

[Chemical Alia]

It's actually a good idea. If you go to school to get into an industry, that school should be like the industry. This is true in any field

Nope.

If crunch is a standard in the industry, it would be against Guildhall's purpose to not include it in the program. Too bad that by including it, it does in some way condone it.

Wrong. You can't learn to be a "better cruncher". All it means is staying at work stupidly late and not getting paid for it. What can be taught is scheduling and project planning that prevents having to overwork at the end.

If the school is resigned to the idea that its students will crunch in the future no matter what, then what the school should do to prepare them is to teach them normally, plus train their physical fitness because that, unlike "practicing crunching", actually helps to lessen the effects of stress and fatigue. Only slightly, but still.

I don't believe that "conditioning students to accept crunch" is exactly the reason why crunch exists at the GH. For the most part, it's a simple matter of having only the duration an 18-month program (I think it might be something like 22 months now) to learn a trade often time completely from nothing.

An artist, for example, may have had no knowledge of 3d modeling, Photoshop or digital art at all when they started. I had never modeled a single object before, and had no knowledge of the game development pipeline. But by the time you are five or six months out from graduating, you need to have not only gained those foundational skills, but developed into an artist who can not only compete with experienced professionals, but have built up a solid portfolio to prove it. It's only in the last few months that you may be strong enough in your skills to create work worth showing to a recruiter, and the students find that it's when they're busiest with their MIT testing, final game projects, and the rest of their courses.

We have specific courses on rapid application development, the pros and cons of different lifecycle models and the best practices/mistakes that lead to crunch, death marches, and failed projects. But in the end, if you really want to get a job and compete with experienced people with shipped titles and awesome skills, you have to be willing to put in as much time as you must. Especially in this economic state, and with so many talented people laid off from their jobs. It's not simply about accepting that you'll be exploited in some way and that you must get used to it before it even starts. I think just about everyone knows that extended crunch is terrible, destroys morale and does little to improve productivity. Except maybe for those who find it necessary to require it, anyway v:

 

[Drake_Dercon]

snipped because of embarrassing statement.

Boy, you've just listed all of my concerns in a good 3 statements >_< God, the future never slows the fuck down, does it?

Yeah, that didn't come out right.

My whole idea is that where I live (that would be Canada in general), there aren't really any good schools geared towards video game design. Then, reading this article, I found a "dream school". Your concerns are quite important, I admit, but I personally have turned out most of my best work while working through fatigue (and not stopping long enough to lose where I left off). The whole idea of working through the crunch, for me, is a fantastic one because my own thought process functions better when I don't give it time to stop or become distracted.

I also recognize that it's not for everyone and different people work better under different circumstances. I was merely stating that for my personal path, this seems a great option.

 

[DiscoChild]

... research shows that over a longer time anything over 50 hours per week doesn't even help in producing more. It's merely stupid for everyone involved. ... perpetuating low expectations and stupid ways of working for no reason, and in doing so, setting up its students for exploitation.

I've worked in the industry for many years and am now an instructor at a similar game school, and I agree with you completely. People within the industry need to fight the senseless practice of "crunch" and work toward creating more efficient practices and better-organized scheduling. Every time a team has an extended crunch, it shows the project has undergone failures. I warn my students that crunch is a likely possibility, but I don't force them to endure it in preparation of that possibility. I'd rather spend my time encouraging them to help the industry grow in its maturity and stability by resisting antiquated conventions, and educate them on all the reasons why crunch doesn't work.

I notice a lot of people questioning the Guildhall's use of crunch as part of the curriculum. I think that an important point about that is being missed here. Namely, that crunch is a necessary evil for a student.

For the record, I also am a Guildhall graduate who is now gainfully employed at a AAA studio as a designer/scripter. In fact, ChemicalAlia and I were in the same cohort (C11 represent). I also had little-to-no experience in level design prior to attending.

No one here is trying to argue that crunch is a good thing, or that it's an optimal (if sometimes necessary) working condition. Here are a couple of things to consider, though:

1) Anyone who goes to the Guildhall is extremely passionate about making games. In fact, during the admissions process one thing that they try to make sure of is that the people who start the program are certain about this. This isn't a program for people who think that making games "sounds like it could be pretty cool." It's for people who know that what they want to do more than anything is work in this industry. Keeping this fact in mind,

2) Guildhall is an arms race. Now, I met some great people while attending--people I'm delighted to call my friends--but at the end of the day I knew that, along with everyone else in in the mod community and other experienced devs, these friends were also my competition. So while it was always friendly and everyone was ALWAYS helpful, everyone's constantly trying to top each other.

Combine extreme passion with heightened competition, and suddenly this thought starts popping into your head on a regular basis: "Aw crap. It's midnight. Now, technically I am done with this assignment, but I bet if I did [something] it would be so much better...plus I bet [classmate] is still up working." Next thing you know it's 12:50PM and you're racing to zip up and submit your assignment that's due at 1PM. That or you're working on a group project and you think to yourself, "Yeah, I could stop now, but it's not the best level it could be. I feel like I'd be letting my teammates down if I didn't do everything that I could." No sleep yet, and you've got another thing due the next day. Rinse, repeat. "Should I keep going?" ceases to be an issue, and it becomes more a question of "Can I keep going?" If yes, keep going.

For the record, the Guildhall NEVER forces people to work any certain amount of hours outside of class. There is no "20-hour lab time." In fact, the building shuts down at 1AM to encourage students to stop working for the day (a policy we'd bemoan and petition to change over and over again to no avail). They do, however, give you plenty of work. Some students could call it quits at midnight and be perfectly happy with what they've done. The rest of us got hired. Ultimately, the guy sitting across from us in the interview wasn't going to know or care how much sleep we needed to get while finishing whatever portfolio piece. All he cares about is how good your stuff is when compared to everybody else's that's out there.

So yeah, there's crunch, but it's self-induced 99.9% of the time (as Drew Murray would say, "Hard Work > Talent"). The students at the Guildhall are passionate about making games and want to work in this industry literally more than just about anything. This can easily translate to "I will work insane hours to achieve my goal." At the same time, my tenure there contains some of the most fun I've ever had. I was glad to do the work and lose all that sleep for the right to be where I am, and *gulp* I'd probably do it all again if I had to.

 

[Jumplion]

snipped because of embarrassing statement.

Boy, you've just listed all of my concerns in a good 3 statements >_< God, the future never slows the fuck down, does it?

Yeah, that didn't come out right.

My whole idea is that where I live (that would be Canada in general), there aren't really any good schools geared towards video game design. Then, reading this article, I found a "dream school". Your concerns are quite important, I admit, but I personally have turned out most of my best work while working through fatigue (and not stopping long enough to lose where I left off). The whole idea of working through the crunch, for me, is a fantastic one because my own thought process functions better when I don't give it time to stop or become distracted.

I also recognize that it's not for everyone and different people work better under different circumstances. I was merely stating that for my personal path, this seems a great option.

I don't I really get the misinterpretation, but regardless I wish you luck with your ventures. Right now I'm keeping my options open for the future as I'm going into film making/video games, so this school does pique my interests as well.

 

[Drake_Dercon]

I don't I really get the misinterpretation, but regardless I wish you luck with your ventures. Right now I'm keeping my options open for the future as I'm going into film making/video games, so this school does pique my interests as well.

More a misspeaking on my part. I didn't say enough.
I really have no trouble with any of the things I noted in my first post, so I'll probably apply at some point and if it falls through, it falls through.

Best of luck to you, too. I don't know about where you live, but up here in the land of polar bears and igloos, we have a program that helps students find good schools within the country and determine career options if they are unsure of where they ought to go. Something about "all the smart kids going south because we have no good schools". If you're unsure of where you want to go, see if there's some sort of equivalent program where you live. Some idiot decided career cruising was a good name for ours.

Edit: That was incredibly off-topic, so I'll post a tie-in.

The Guildhall layout might not be the best for everyone. If you are unsure of which school you want to go to, check to see if you have a similar program to career cruising where you live. I'm sure that there's a good school for everyone somewhere, hopefully. I still can't find one that teaches physics, computer courses and video game design courses (which is strange, given that I can see a good number of ways for all of those to connect).

 

[Jumplion]

I don't I really get the misinterpretation, but regardless I wish you luck with your ventures. Right now I'm keeping my options open for the future as I'm going into film making/video games, so this school does pique my interests as well.

More a misspeaking on my part. I didn't say enough.
I really have no trouble with any of the things I noted in my first post, so I'll probably apply at some point and if it falls through, it falls through.

Best of luck to you, too. I don't know about where you live, but up here in the land of polar bears and igloos, we have a program that helps students find good schools within the country and determine career options if they are unsure of where they ought to go. Something about "all the smart kids going south because we have no good schools". If you're unsure of where you want to go, see if there's some sort of equivalent program where you live. Some idiot decided career cruising was a good name for ours.

Edit: That was incredibly off-topic, so I'll post a tie-in.

The Guildhall layout might not be the best for everyone. If you are unsure of which school you want to go to, check to see if you have a similar program to career cruising where you live. I'm sure that there's a good school for everyone somewhere, hopefully. I still can't find one that teaches physics, computer courses and video game design courses (which is strange, given that I can see a good number of ways for all of those to connect).

Ha, right now I'm getting a dozen e-mails or letters from random Universities with the standard "This place provides unique opportunities, innovative environments, and so much more!", the problem is sifting through the bullshit ones that have nothing to do with my interests. This Guildhall does look interesting, but I doubt I have the actual skills (coding, art design, etc...) to go through with it. I'm reading into it, however.

 

[nebtheslayer95]

why must I wait another six years before attending... WHY!?

 

[Ghost29]

I graduated from the Guildhall back in 2005. It was a great experience and I met some wonderful people. That said, those thinking about attending, please adjust your expectations. It is not "Hogwarts". It is not a magical mecca of open minded, free thinking creativity. It is expensive, it is very hard work, and you may well disagree with a good deal of the policies and practices of the school.

Even if you do make it through the program, finding an industry job is not guaranteed. The placement percentages speak for themselves, but they don't tell you that it might take a year for a grad to find their first industry job - and that job may very well be working extended crunch on a project you care nothing about, for a company that couldn't care less for your well developed sense of "ethics".

Would I recommend Guildhall to someone trying to get into the games business today? Absolutely, but be prepared for a long and difficult road that will probably break your heart more than once.