312: A Bigger Universe

Snowy Rainbow

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SteelStallion said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
You forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of your sentence. Because obviously, if people find something interesting in it and its garnered a large fanbase, there is something compelling about it that you're not seeing.
It's a forum and the topic is a purely subjective. That my comment is opinion is obvious and implied. In fact, one cannot offer an objective 'fact' in this discussion. Your statement is as relevant as adding "fish breath in water" after an in-depth summary of a species of fish.

Stating the obvious - it's bad.

P.S: you forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of your sentence.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Snowy Rainbow said:
SteelStallion said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
You forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of your sentence. Because obviously, if people find something interesting in it and its garnered a large fanbase, there is something compelling about it that you're not seeing.
It's a forum and the topic is a purely subjective. That my comment is opinion is obvious and implied. In fact, one cannot offer an objective 'fact' in this discussion. Your statement is as relevant as adding "fish breath in water" after an in-depth summary of a species of fish.

Stating the obvious - it's bad.

P.S: you forgot to add "in my opinion" at the end of your sentence.
But what you said was a straight statement, 'Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling'. If you'd ended that sentence with 'to me', then that would have been an opinion. Instead you chose to phrase it as a total and all encompassing statement that implies that while it may be your opinion, your opinion is obviously better. Also he doesn't have to add 'in my opinion' to the end of his post because it was a logical argument rather than him just giving his view on a subject.

And you don't find anything compelling about the idea that the main protagonist of the series is actually the indoctrinated victim of his superiors? That thanks to the military he so diligently serves he has no understanding of normal social interaction and the closest thing he has to a mother figure is the women who abducted him at the age of six?
 

Snowy Rainbow

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Geo Da Sponge said:
Consider this statement:

[HEADING=3]Apples are very yummy, especially the crunchy ones.[/HEADING]

Now this one:

[HEADING=3]Cake is much more delicious than pie.[/HEADING]

And finally this one:

[HEADING=3]Rainbow Six: Vegas had way more fun multiplayer than Call of Duty![/HEADING]

Now, tell me, are those statements implying a fact? Or is it someone offering their opinions?

Ding, ding, ding! It is obviously subjective and therefor opinion!
 

Sir Ryan Ward

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Jan 29, 2011
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Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
Out of curiosity, is there anything specific about the Halo universe that turns you off or makes you disinterested?
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Snowy Rainbow said:
Geo Da Sponge said:
Consider this statement:

[HEADING=3]Apples are very yummy, especially the crunchy ones.[/HEADING]

Now this one:

[HEADING=3]Cake is much more delicious than pie.[/HEADING]

And finally this one:

[HEADING=3]Rainbow Six: Vegas had way more fun multiplayer than Call of Duty![/HEADING]

Now, tell me, are those statements implying a fact? Or is it someone offering their opinions?

Ding, ding, ding! It is obviously subjective and therefor opinion!
Oh for goodness sake...

Those are all opinions, but saying there is nothing unique about the Halo universe is quite clearly a blanket statement that is very easy to prove false. The amount of expanded information there is on the Covenant for exmaple; Lekgolo poetry, Unggoy birth control, the evolution of the position of Arbiter, military discrimination against the Jiralhanae by the Sangheili, the unusual mercernary role of the Kig-Yar and so on.

Look, it's all very well you prancing about laughing about how you can talk whatever bollocks you want because it's your opinion, but sooner or later you're actually going to have to back them up or explain them, otherwise you'll just look ignorant. But no, you'd much rather dance around the actual issue that's meant to be debated here in favour of some rambling nonsense about how unassailable your position is because it's your opinion. Now perhaps it was foolish of me to try to argue with you over that subject, so I'm just going to present a nice simple question for you instead; can you actually expand and explain your opinion on the subject, or would you rather not have to think?
 

Snowy Rainbow

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Rynwrd said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
Out of curiosity, is there anything specific about the Halo universe that turns you off or makes you disinterested?
Nothing is really a turn off ; It's all just very uninspired and nothing about it grabs me. It's all well enough developed I suppose, but none of it feels unique. It isn't offering anything worth looking into or that can't be gotten elsewhere and better. There are specifics that are certainly unique to the Haloverse (that was terrible - I'm sorry) but when I look at the world on a whole I just shrug. Which is odd, because I grew up on sci-fi with my dad, watching SG1 and Star Trek, and one of my favourtie games is not completely unlike Halo (that being Mass Effect, with my favourite shooter being Rainbow Six: Vegas). The games themselves aren't what I'd call bad. Mediocre, yes. Not bad. Halo 3 is actually the arena to the most fun I've ever had in co-op; a friend and I played through the entire campaign from start to end on legendary. Taken on its merit alone (casting aside the fun my friend and I generated outside of the actual mechanics and story of the title) it was just another shooter. Nothing to say and nothing to contribute. The first two felt the same; though slightly more fresh, they were no more engaging to me.

I suppose "meh" is the right word.
 

Theron Julius

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I've read Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, and the Cole Protocol and I enjoyed every one of them. They add so much more depth to the story which you couldn't really get across through the games. Honestly, I just don't get the trolls who can utterly denounce Halo without having read the books, although I will admit that I'm a poor judge on this matter, since I'm biased myself.
 

Snowy Rainbow

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Geo Da Sponge said:
Can you actually expand and explain your opinion on the subject, or would you rather not have to think?
If you'd simply asked politely for me to further expand my opinion, I would have.

See my above post.
 

Geo Da Sponge

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Snowy Rainbow said:
Rynwrd said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
Out of curiosity, is there anything specific about the Halo universe that turns you off or makes you disinterested?
Nothing is really a turn off ; It's all just very uninspired and nothing about it grabs me. It's all well enough developed I suppose, but none of it feels unique. It isn't offering anything worth looking into or that can't be gotten elsewhere and better. There are specifics that are certainly unique to the Haloverse (that was terrible - I'm sorry) but when I look at the world on a whole I just shrug. Which is odd, because I grew up on sci-fi with my dad, watching SG1 and Star Trek, and one of my favourtie games is not completely unlike Halo (that being Mass Effect, with my favourite shooter being Rainbow Six: Vegas). The games themselves aren't what I'd call bad. Mediocre, yes. Not bad. Halo 3 is actually the arena to the most fun I've ever had in co-op; a friend and I played through the entire campaign from start to end on legendary. Taken on its merit alone (casting aside the fun my friend and I generated outside of the actual mechanics and story of the title) it was just another shooter. Nothing to say and nothing to contribute. The first two felt the same; though slightly more fresh, they were no more engaging to me.

I suppose "meh" is the right word.
Well apparently you have now actually answered my question and proven you've thought about the subject more than I gave you credit for. How infuriating.
 

Daaaah Whoosh

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I like the way Halo feels old, even though it's in the future. It reminds me a lot of Star Wars, where swordfighting was a legitimate skill in interplanetary warfare. However, I don't know if everyone who expands the universe really appreciates that. The only thing that everyone seems to agree on is that the Covenant is damn near impossible to kill, which I have never agreed with. I like to think of the Human-Covenant war as something like the American Civil War, where the bigger army just keeps on pushing until the smaller army is overrun.
 

Jabberwock xeno

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I am disspointed by the lack of intrest in this article.

Many people don't realize just how much story halo has to it.
 

ZeroMachine

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Kermi said:
Nicolaus99 said:
Continuity failure. Halo: Reach bore no resemblance to the Fall of Reach book. The game was a total ret-con.
In reality only the games are canon. The authors get access to the Halo story bible and talk to the game writers etc., but at the end of the day what they're writing is fan-fic based on facts, and Bungie weren't obliged to stick to facts established in the novels when they started making Reach.
Wrong.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

It has always, ALWAYS, been stated that the books and the games are both 100% canon. There have been some retcons, there is no doubting that, but only some of the animes, the book based off the first game (The Flood) and a short story present in the Evolutions collection are considered "secondary canon".

Want proof? The Fall of Reach came out sixteen days before the original Halo game.

Also, to the writer of the article... there are seven books, a short story collection that can be considered an 8th book, and five more books on the way. Just sayin'. :p

Also, a beautifully written article. I've been trying to say this for years, and although I've gotten my friends to see it (and turned some into major fans, in fact) people on the internet are much less willing to give things a try even when presented evidence.

At least some people, though:

Snowy Rainbow said:
Rynwrd said:
Snowy Rainbow said:
Nothing about the Halo universe is unique or compelling. Never understood what people see in it.
Out of curiosity, is there anything specific about the Halo universe that turns you off or makes you disinterested?
Nothing is really a turn off ; It's all just very uninspired and nothing about it grabs me. It's all well enough developed I suppose, but none of it feels unique. It isn't offering anything worth looking into or that can't be gotten elsewhere and better. There are specifics that are certainly unique to the Haloverse (that was terrible - I'm sorry) but when I look at the world on a whole I just shrug. Which is odd, because I grew up on sci-fi with my dad, watching SG1 and Star Trek, and one of my favourtie games is not completely unlike Halo (that being Mass Effect, with my favourite shooter being Rainbow Six: Vegas). The games themselves aren't what I'd call bad. Mediocre, yes. Not bad. Halo 3 is actually the arena to the most fun I've ever had in co-op; a friend and I played through the entire campaign from start to end on legendary. Taken on its merit alone (casting aside the fun my friend and I generated outside of the actual mechanics and story of the title) it was just another shooter. Nothing to say and nothing to contribute. The first two felt the same; though slightly more fresh, they were no more engaging to me.

I suppose "meh" is the right word.
present good, solid arguments, that are summed up by effectively saying "it doesn't do it for me" rather than outright saying "no lawlz halo suxorz and has no story, fag".

People like you, Snowy, have my respect and gratitude. If only we could all be so well spoken, thought out, and civil XD
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Nicolaus99 said:
Continuity failure. Halo: Reach bore no resemblance to the Fall of Reach book. The game was a total ret-con.

This article smells like something I'd expect to find in the "Official Xbox Magazine" as a shallow corporate shill. Should have branched out, touched on books/media expansion from several titles and some mention of their shortcomings rather than this seeming Halo fanboyism advertisement. Shortcomings like the zero in-game explanation of what a Spartan III is and the difference thereof between them and Spartan IIs. It just leaves the gamer with a big hollow. Undecided whether that's just laziness or some kind of wordless manipulation to get the curious to look it up themselves and get into the side media. Maybe an omission to placate tea-bag players who don't give a damn.

Own 5 halo books. Haven't read 2 of them, stopped when I played through Reach. If they care so little about the lore that they'll reboot it at will whenever it strikes their fancy, I don't see why fans like myself should care either.
Oh no! How dare a journalist have the gall to like something? And without feeling the need to bash on any potential shortcomings just for the sake of it rather then it being necessary to what the article was trying to say? He must be a FANBOY!

Also, Halo: Reach wasn't a total ret-con. It told a story of a different group of Spartans with a connected but different mission at a different point in the battle, but that doesn't mean the stuff in the book didn't happen. Apart from a few minor details that seem not to match but were not very important anyway (continuity for long running sci-fi series' are used to much bigger changes than these) there were no major clashes.
 

thepyrethatburns

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Theron Julius said:
I've read Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, and the Cole Protocol and I enjoyed every one of them. They add so much more depth to the story which you couldn't really get across through the games. Honestly, I just don't get the trolls who can utterly denounce Halo without having read the books, although I will admit that I'm a poor judge on this matter, since I'm biased myself.
Jabberwock xeno said:
I am disspointed by the lack of intrest in this article.

Many people don't realize just how much story halo has to it.
In fairness, most people don't care.

It's like if I told you that Star Wars Episode III is much better if you read Labyrinth of Evil or how the Dark Horse comics really expanded the prequel universe. While that's true, most people don't really take that into account when they discuss the prequel trilogy. In all honesty, they shouldn't have to. If Lucasarts/Bungie is unable to make the primary canon source interesting, then stating that the secondary material expands the universe is not a valid defense. It doesn't make someone a troll if they don't read/watch/play every piece of a game universe before they denounce it.

I watch Waypoint and I've played the games (of which the side games are actually more interesting than the trilogy) but that's about it. If someone started talking about Lekgolo poetry, my attention span would check out probably faster than if I talked to either of you about Quinlan Vos. That doesn't make people trolls. It just acknowledges that different people have differing bandwidth for various fictional universes.
 

YodaUnleashed

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thepyrethatburns said:
Theron Julius said:
I've read Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, and the Cole Protocol and I enjoyed every one of them. They add so much more depth to the story which you couldn't really get across through the games. Honestly, I just don't get the trolls who can utterly denounce Halo without having read the books, although I will admit that I'm a poor judge on this matter, since I'm biased myself.
Jabberwock xeno said:
I am disspointed by the lack of intrest in this article.

Many people don't realize just how much story halo has to it.
In fairness, most people don't care.

It's like if I told you that Star Wars Episode III is much better if you read Labyrinth of Evil or how the Dark Horse comics really expanded the prequel universe. While that's true, most people don't really take that into account when they discuss the prequel trilogy. In all honesty, they shouldn't have to. If Lucasarts/Bungie is unable to make the primary canon source interesting, then stating that the secondary material expands the universe is not a valid defense. It doesn't make someone a troll if they don't read/watch/play every piece of a game universe before they denounce it.

I watch Waypoint and I've played the games (of which the side games are actually more interesting than the trilogy) but that's about it. If someone started talking about Lekgolo poetry, my attention span would check out probably faster than if I talked to either of you about Quinlan Vos. That doesn't make people trolls. It just acknowledges that different people have differing bandwidth for various fictional universes.
Your pretty much right on here. The extra material does certainly help flesh out and enrich the primary experience whether it be film or game but you shouldn't have to go to a book or a comic or a piece of fan theory for something to be explained that happened in the film or game. They need to stand on their own two feet and present their material in a concise and understandable manner and not leave any major elements of plot, story, character etc for these secondary sources to explain.

Now personally, I believe the main three Halo games don't fall into this trap; you certainly don't have to read the books or comics to understand what's going on so long as you follow the story closely. That stuff only gives you a greater insight, it only enhances your experience not defines it.

Reach on the other hand assumes a lot about the person playing it, and it's less about information from the books and comics than information from previous games which is the problem. It assumes that they know what the covenant are, that they appreciate why their fighting them and what ultimately happens to the planet Reach. Such assumptions are fine for the opening of any story; it's a common device to throw your reader, viewer or player right into the action and explain things from there. However, in Reach's case, these assumptions carry on throughout the entire game and if I'd never played a halo game before never mind read all the extra material, my understanding of the events around me would be limited to a basic "we human ,we fight evil aliens, we must save planet".

With the trilogy and even with ODST such knowledge is presupposed because it's part of a series: if you play Halo 2 and are confused about what's going on, then it's probably because you haven't played the first game. The reason such an explanation cannot be applied to Reach is because it isn't part of a over-arching storyline, it's a standalone story, and if your a new player to the Halo franchise things really ought to be explained a little more. Now of course, even the games within the trilogy need to, as I said earlier, stand alone on their own two feet, but if something isn't clear within the storyline it's probably more likely due to a lack of knowledge of previous installments than a failing in the story-tellers ability to convey said knowledge in the current game. It's like jumping into 'The Empire Strikes Back' without having seen 'A New Hope', sure it will still be one helluva ride, but the characters, universe and story all had their introduction in the first movie and blaming the second film for not adequately informing the audience about all that information is unfair.

There is of course a tipping point where one can explain things too much and too clumsily at that. Halo can be a bit guilty of just laying things out in speeches of exposition but thankfully it leaves just enough elements rooted in mystery without de-stabalising the story. The Forerunners are a good example of this- their form, their mission, their fate are all left in a rather vague ambiguity and another gaming franchise, Half-life, also effectively does this with the enigmatic G-man. Some would criticise such elements as being lazily or poorly written if their not defined enough and such people generally like things to be put in a little box and nicely wrapped in a red bow. What they don't realise or fail to accept, is that not everything can be explained, if it could, we wouldn't have the word inexplicable now would we. Sometimes things are ambiguous and mysterious and often we have to create our own meanings or make our own judgments on things, creating, in the case of fiction, another form of engagement and a very important one. For whilst we not only fear the unknown, we also find it tantalisingly irresistible to explore.

Such is why the Forerunners, G-man and even more so in the case of Star Wars, The Force, are all fascinating if not enthralling because they each require us as individuals, and as a community, if we so choose to become a part of one, to scrutinise, analyse and perhaps even define (though only in loose, rather indeterminate terms). Hence this is the purpose that extra materials serve: to allow those interested enough in the universe to explore it further and give them even more to chew on.

Well I seem to have got a bit off topic there but I feel you get my point, whatever it was.
 

imnot

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Someone on the Escapist agrees that Halo has lots of backstory?
Mind = Blown.

[small]I regret pressing the red button, and recognising people via avatars rather than names XD[/small]
 

DJ Jack

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I really cannot agree more with your feelings here Ryan. When I was a kid, I used to be a fan of this one NES game called "Blaster Master" by Sunsoft. At first glance the game seemed to be nothing more than a rather difficult rip-off of Metroid, save for technology advanced super tan of course. It was until after I read the book of the same name that I deeply fell in love with game and it's crazy universe:
http://www.amazon.com/Blaster-Master-Worlds-Power-Nine/dp/059043778X

It's unfortunate that it hasn't received a worthy sequel since its debut on the NES, but man has the feeling of wonder stayed with me ever since then. Hell, it's half the reason why I looked into the Halo books in the first place! My point here is that if one book can leave a lasting memory for a little kid, its anyone's guess what the Halo book series will do for the franchise in the upcoming years. Which is a future I am very much looking forward too.
 

Jabberwock xeno

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YodaUnleashed said:
thepyrethatburns said:
Theron Julius said:
I've read Fall of Reach, The Flood, First Strike, Ghosts of Onyx, and the Cole Protocol and I enjoyed every one of them. They add so much more depth to the story which you couldn't really get across through the games. Honestly, I just don't get the trolls who can utterly denounce Halo without having read the books, although I will admit that I'm a poor judge on this matter, since I'm biased myself.
Jabberwock xeno said:
I am disspointed by the lack of intrest in this article.

Many people don't realize just how much story halo has to it.
In fairness, most people don't care.

It's like if I told you that Star Wars Episode III is much better if you read Labyrinth of Evil or how the Dark Horse comics really expanded the prequel universe. While that's true, most people don't really take that into account when they discuss the prequel trilogy. In all honesty, they shouldn't have to. If Lucasarts/Bungie is unable to make the primary canon source interesting, then stating that the secondary material expands the universe is not a valid defense. It doesn't make someone a troll if they don't read/watch/play every piece of a game universe before they denounce it.

I watch Waypoint and I've played the games (of which the side games are actually more interesting than the trilogy) but that's about it. If someone started talking about Lekgolo poetry, my attention span would check out probably faster than if I talked to either of you about Quinlan Vos. That doesn't make people trolls. It just acknowledges that different people have differing bandwidth for various fictional universes.
Your pretty much right on here. The extra material does certainly help flesh out and enrich the primary experience whether it be film or game but you shouldn't have to go to a book or a comic or a piece of fan theory for something to be explained that happened in the film or game. They need to stand on their own two feet and present their material in a concise and understandable manner and not leave any major elements of plot, story, character etc for these secondary sources to explain.

Now personally, I believe the main three Halo games don't fall into this trap; you certainly don't have to read the books or comics to understand what's going on so long as you follow the story closely. That stuff only gives you a greater insight, it only enhances your experience not defines it.

Reach on the other hand assumes a lot about the person playing it, and it's less about information from the books and comics than information from previous games which is the problem. It assumes that they know what the covenant are, that they appreciate why their fighting them and what ultimately happens to the planet Reach. Such assumptions are fine for the opening of any story; it's a common device to throw your reader, viewer or player right into the action and explain things from there. However, in Reach's case, these assumptions carry on throughout the entire game and if I'd never played a halo game before never mind read all the extra material, my understanding of the events around me would be limited to a basic "we human ,we fight evil aliens, we must save planet".

With the trilogy and even with ODST such knowledge is presupposed because it's part of a series: if you play Halo 2 and are confused about what's going on, then it's probably because you haven't played the first game. The reason such an explanation cannot be applied to Reach is because it isn't part of a over-arching storyline, it's a standalone story, and if your a new player to the Halo franchise things really ought to be explained a little more. Now of course, even the games within the trilogy need to, as I said earlier, stand alone on their own two feet, but if something isn't clear within the storyline it's probably more likely due to a lack of knowledge of previous installments than a failing in the story-tellers ability to convey said knowledge in the current game. It's like jumping into 'The Empire Strikes Back' without having seen 'A New Hope', sure it will still be one helluva ride, but the characters, universe and story all had their introduction in the first movie and blaming the second film for not adequately informing the audience about all that information is unfair.

There is of course a tipping point where one can explain things too much and too clumsily at that. Halo can be a bit guilty of just laying things out in speeches of exposition but thankfully it leaves just enough elements rooted in mystery without de-stabalising the story. The Forerunners are a good example of this- their form, their mission, their fate are all left in a rather vague ambiguity and another gaming franchise, Half-life, also effectively does this with the enigmatic G-man. Some would criticise such elements as being lazily or poorly written if their not defined enough and such people generally like things to be put in a little box and nicely wrapped in a red bow. What they don't realise or fail to accept, is that not everything can be explained, if it could, we wouldn't have the word inexplicable now would we. Sometimes things are ambiguous and mysterious and often we have to create our own meanings or make our own judgments on things, creating, in the case of fiction, another form of engagement and a very important one. For whilst we not only fear the unknown, we also find it tantalisingly irresistible to explore.

Such is why the Forerunners, G-man and even more so in the case of Star Wars, The Force, are all fascinating if not enthralling because they each require us as individuals, and as a community, if we so choose to become a part of one, to scrutinise, analyse and perhaps even define (though only in loose, rather indeterminate terms). Hence this is the purpose that extra materials serve: to allow those interested enough in the universe to explore it further and give them even more to chew on.

Well I seem to have got a bit off topic there but I feel you get my point, whatever it was.
Oddly, I feel the opposite:

The Halo games are just a small snapshot the the universe, and are actually the least insightful parts of the series.

I view Halo as a canon universe, which the games are just a part of.

You can't appreciate the universe unless you know the context of all the other pieces.

imnotparanoid said:
Someone on the Escapist agrees that Halo has lots of backstory?
Mind = Blown.

[small]I regret pressing the red button, and recognising people via avatars rather than names XD[/small]
We are more common than we appear to be, try the Halo fan group that i'm apart of, or just look for halo threads, you'll find us.

--------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, i'm dissucisng this in more detail in my ask a Halo fanboy thread, but I won't link it due to fear of being reprimanded by a mod for advertising, which is not my intention.