40k: Anti-Tau Riptide Tactics? Is there even one?

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Okay so I'm really struggling against my friends Riptide. I've played about 7 games against it, and I've never once taken a single wound off, nor actually won when its fielded. Once it lost a wound itself from Gets Hot, but other than that it seems, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. 5W, 2+/5++, T6 Monstrous creature? Not only that, but its weaponry? An AP2 Large blast? REALLY?!

I've played against it with Death Guard 30k Legion and Space Wolves. I tried teleporting a kitted out Wolf Guard terminator squad in, and the damn Interceptor rule landed an AP2 Large Blast right on my Terms, killing them all. 5++ is not reliable enough. I've tried shooting it with a 10-man Legion Rocket squad, but hey, guess what? 2+ armor save. I tried charging it with Thunderwolves but they never got within 12' before being blown apart. Basically my friend camps the damn thing on the center of the board and you either crash against it like water on rocks, or swarm around it, getting shot to pieces by it and the rest of the Tau.

And I've tried what I'm convinced is the single worst tactical advice I've ever gotten: Ignore it. I really think whoever first wrote 'Ignore the Riptide' was himself a Tau player, laughing and snickering at the gullibleness of other players. "Sure, ignore the monstrous creature with an AP2 Ion Canon! Yup, you got it! That'll teach me a lesson, boy howdy! *snicker snicker*"

I mean a 5w Monstrous creature with an AP2 large blast canon? Even with Gets Hot, and its relatively bad WS(except for Marker Lights, so there's that) you can't ignore that. If its ignored, it just rampages across an entire half of the table, obliterating anything in its path, be they ThunderWolves, Rhinos, Grey Hunters, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Terminators, hell even W2 Deathshroud terms crumpled like old paint under its stupid weight of fire.

I've been playing 40k since 4th edition. I know what can be ignored, what units you just have to tank damage from, and whats grossly unfair. The Riptide is grossly unfair.
And apparently it gets worse on the tournament stage, with players legally taking 3 riptides.

So is my understanding of the Riptide simply off? Has my friend been getting too good of rolls, or does everyone else just cringe and consider forfeiting the match before Turn 1 even starts when its on the table? Is this a unit that's gonna get nerfed hard in the next codex update? I can't see how it won't! My guess is it will either become a Lord of War, or get a 0-1 Elite option, like Obliterators. No spamming anymore, and a huge point up-cost.

 

[Muspelheim]

I imagine the real intention is to make you buy a Tau army yourself.

If you're mostly having Riptide woes while playing with your friend, you could probably work out some houserules nerfing it slightly. That or you could beat him with it until he promises not to field it anymore.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Games Workshop adheres to the League of Legends style of balancing: keep an overpowered unit/hero in your newest codex to entice players to buy the new hot item, and then "fix" it in the next codex by making a new completely overpowered unit.

Less facetiously, but more entertainingly, I suggest taking up Imperial Guard and bombarding the piss out of everything with Basilisks and squadrons of pie plate dropping Russes.

 

[Lilikins]

hmmm I havent played Warhammer in ages..literally not for about ehh..10 years or so I believe hehe, and even then it wasnt 40k, but the fantasy version.

Nevertheless though I still enjoy looking at the models and stuff. But, to get to your question, upon checking up what that unit looked like/did, I stumbled upon this... its basically just an explanation of what the unit is, what its streangths and weaknesses are...etc etc. Theres quite a few folks speaking about tactics at the lower portion, mainly -against- it.

Maybe one of them can give you an indication of something you can do with the units at your disposal?

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/11/tau-codex-review-xv104-riptide/



Offtopic: That unit does look pretty cool though hehe..I must admit.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Best way to beat it is not play 40k. Its currently an awful game.

I retired a 15,000pt nid army, 5000pt Inquisition army and 5000pt Necron army at the introduction of 7th and haven't regretted it.

 

[Lotet]

I've tried shooting it with a 10-man Legion Rocket squad, but hey, guess what? 2+ armor save.

You're using a Legion Heavy Support Squad with Rockets against a 2+ Sv target? Why? Use lascannons man. 10 Lascannons would average 3.7 wounds on a 2+ 5++ target. 15 could take it down in a single volley. Though they would cost >600 points so it's not a cheap or efficient (or good) choice, but really, rockets?

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Just be a mega dick.

Reaver Titan, 2 x laser blaster and 1x vortex missile, just for that extra "fuck you". Proxy it with a cardboard cutout that looks like it was drawn by a 5 year old.

Under the new rules, Destroyers roll to hit, then do D3+1 automatic wounds on a roll of 2+ with no saving throw of any kind allowed (6+D6w if you roll a 6), the 2x turbo lasers will give it 6x5" blast Destroyer templates per turn plus the vortex gives a 1 off 10" "everything touching this that is not a super heavy or gargantuan creature is dead, no arguments" blast.

[edit: huh...7th ed has saving throws allowed against the 2-5 roll, Escalation doesn't. Nice job GW {edit 2, ok, they've done an errata on it, 7th ed is correct, carry on}]

You'll probably only get away with it once, but it'll be funny.

 

[Mangod]

Snip

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All of this just makes me wonder how the game can even be fun any more? If you need to sink this much into killing a single model, perhaps it's time to start homebrewing army construction rules, or switch to a different game altogether.

But I suppose if I have to give some constructive advice, then I'd suggest Thunderwolf Cav to lock the Riptide down with melée. As long as the bloody thing can't fire, it's basically useless to your opponent. Still, yeah... the Riptide is really cheesy, and not in the good way.

 

[L. Declis]

I have chosen to sign back in just to help you here, because of the unhelpful attitude of the posters.

Rather than simply join the Waaagh of people for whom anything that isn't whatever edition they joined is wrong, I thought I'd try to give you constructive advice.

First things first; there is the "You're friends" option. Tell your friend that the Riptide just isn't fun to play again, and could he please try using a different unit? The Riptide is the old Daemon Codex, the 3.5 Chaos Codex, the old Mephiston rules (just face-rippingly powerful and hard to lose with). You need to remember that GW expects players to play with friends and work it out amongst yourselves. That said...

Take out the Markerlights. That helps for starters. Removing the Markerlights removes the Cover Save removal, and that will drastically help against that AP2.

Secondly, try taking the Assault Ramp options, such as the Land Raider or that Flyer; jumping into Assault quickly can REALLY mess them up. Assault in general will hurt them. Try taking multiple fast units such as Blood Claws on bikes or Assault Packs, as these armed with Plasma Weapons or Grav Weapons (If you can take them) will really hurt the Riptide over time, and a single Power Fist will mess them up.

Thirdly, a Riptide has REALLY poor leadership. If you can get it into combat, you can sweep it. And it has poor Initiative, so if you can win combat, you'll REALLY easily sweep it. Which leads to...

Psykers. One thing that Tau do not have. The Primaris Power (Psychic Scream) will probably kill it instantly. Anything which uses Initiative or Leadership to hurt it will hurt it. Also, consider taking Invisibility on as many psykers as you can, because then he can only Snap Shot. Which means, he cannot drop a Pie Plate on you or your very painful unit of death about to wreck his shit. If you're taking a big unit, make sure to bring a Psyker or two. Have a look in the psychic section, see what you can do. Get creative.

Fourthly, anything which can swing an AP2 at Initiative will wreck him. Remember that an Ion Cannon, despite being Str 9, is now actually kinda bad against vehicles so try to pod in a Dreadnought or two and force him to engage or flee, perhaps flee into another unit ready to tear him a new one?

A mass Drop-Pod drop-podding is a nightmare for Tau, who only get a single turn to react before mass-close combat face tearing, so there is a tactic. If he is relying on a huge amount of Interceptor, remind him that he cannot fire then AND the following turn. Also, make sure he isn't using that Ion Accelator during Snap Fire.

Regarding Death Guard, you have flying Deamon Princes who will swing at AP2 and tear his face off, Chaos Spawn who don't instant death, move as quickly as he does and will kill him easily, Chaos Bikers toting Plasma and lots of it, Chaos Terminators in Land Raiders, Chaos Terminators as a suicide Combi-Plasma unit, Chaos Chosen infiltrating with Plasma, Rhinos full of Death Guard shooting Plasma out of the top (and that Str9 gun will take a while to pop ALL the Rhinos) so Drive-by him and shoot him up, Predator Annihilator in Cover, the Maulerfiend can be equipped to charge or at least distract him, a Deamon weaponed Chaos Lord on a bike with the Chaos Spawn to make sure death happens, bring about 100 cultists for 400pts, spread them out and force him to flee or risk being swamped all game before eventually being run down by them, a Chaos Sorcerer who ALSO is playing around with the same Psychic tricks I mentioned above...

And then if we begin to include allies like Chaos Daemons or Imperial Knights...

 

[Mangod]

I have chosen to sign back in just to help you here, because of the unhelpful attitude of the posters.

Rather than simply join the Waaagh of people for whom anything that isn't whatever edition they joined is wrong, I thought I'd try to give you constructive advice.

First things first; there is the "You're friends" option. Tell your friend that the Riptide just isn't fun to play again, and could he please try using a different unit? The Riptide is the old Daemon Codex, the 3.5 Chaos Codex, the old Mephiston rules (just face-rippingly powerful and hard to lose with). You need to remember that GW expects players to play with friends and work it out amongst yourselves. That said...

I'm gonna assume that the "unhelpful attitude" was directed, partially or indeed entirely, at me. And you're right, I was being rather unhelpful, which I blame on my increasingly poor perception of Games Workshop, which is in large part due to your own statement about needing to fix the rules I've payed 60$ for myself, because GW can't be bothered to make sure their own product works... sorry, Finecast flashbacks.

Still, you're right; I was being unhelpful, and I apologize for that. Frienemies?

 

[Megalodon]

L. Declis has solid points. Removing Markerlight support is one of the bets ways to scupper the Tau. It's also worth remembering that the counters go away at the end of the phase (which some players can forget, both legitimately and not), so a mass pod assault, even with interceptor is going to cause issue, as you opponent has to sacrifice better shooting in his turn to intercept you.

Other good counters include Knights, as they're fast and will really ruin the Riptide's day with their Reaper Chainswords. Another good shout is the Culexus assassin. They're twisted. Only 140 points, and as a single model are relatively easy to keep out of LOS. He will ruin pretty much anything in the Tau book if he gets close, and it should take a disproportionate (relative to his cost) amount of fire to put him down at range.

 

[Cerberus_2.0]

I have wracked my brain and busted out my Dice and I think I have a viable tactic for you for the space wolves.

Here are the thing's you'll need.

3 drop pods, 4 rune priests (minimum) taken with a squad of grey hunters (with plasma or melta). Longfangs (missile launchers). 1-2 squads of wolf scouts.

Now kit the 2 drop pod rune priests with mastery 2, and have them both take 2 divnation powers, Your Ideal result have a 5 in the divination roll. also take combi plasmas

Now you perform a drop pod assault on your first turn, landing as close as you can to the riptide ensuring that the pods are between you and any fire warriors or pathfinders. (3 pods mean you drop 2 units on the first turn)

The key here is after disembarking to spread your marines as far as coherency allows, while having the hunters encircle the riptide at point blank. Doing this ensures that when the riptide attempts to intercept fire, he has 4 targets to shoot at with minimal chances of hitting your grey hunters hard (as he can't fire his ion accelerator in such a way it'll hit him) and as this is an alpha strike he cannot benefit from markerlights. (as there are no marker lights on the units). if you got the first turn before him you'll catch him without his nova charge.

The psychic phase is critical, You want to cast misfortune on the riptide, then the primaris power on your 2 grey hunters. this shouldn't be too much of a difficult task, as with 4 rune preists you can easily have 6 warp charge advantage before the warp charge roll. Misfortune is a malediction that gives all weapons firing on the riptide rending, and the primaris powers give rerolls to hit for your squads. If you manage to roll it, then after those try casting the 4+ invuln power.

Any remaining preists that have a witchfire power should take pot shots with them.

once you get to the shooting phase, unload. assuming the ideal case, you will unleash 8 plasma shots, 32 bolter shots, 4 storm bolter shots all with re-rolls to hit and with rending, from the drop pod assault alone. under this barrage, the plasmas will cut through the AP2 and with so many bolter rounds a good number of rending hits will seep through. Unless your opponent nova charges his sheild generator that onslaught will if not destroy it outright cripple it for your longfangs to finish off.

The wolf scouts should be a full squad kitted with flamers.

If you gain the first turn, have them infiltrate and scout towards the nearest pathfinders unit and let lose with the promethium. you should be in good range for many hits if you maximise movement.

The third drop pod should contain a unit of wolfguard with combi plasmas. their priority will be if needs be deliver the coup de grace. Even if you don't get the misfortune power or fail to kill the riptide in 1 turn, the riptide will be unable to intercept the wolfguard (if they've intercepted the first strike) and with a simple reuse of the re-roll to hit psychic power on them should finish off the riptide. here using scriers gaze (a possible roll on the divination table) will be of benefit as it'll allow re-rolls of reserve rolls ensuring their arrival. this assault will be overkill, but afterwards you'll likely have a strong body of divination buffed space wolves to continue fighting the tau. this tactic employs the use of the space wolve FOC that allows 2-6 HQ's to be taken.

a sillier tactic is to take as many lone wolves as possible, with power axes or fists, jump packs, and then spread them accross the battle line and have some deep strike. with each of them as a seperate unit the riptide can't shoot them all down before reaching him, and if the tau gunline shoots them down, they've wasted their firepower.

hopefully that'll help. really you just want to engage in complete overkill of the target. Dont as you corrrectly mention ignore it or spread the love. but focus down 1 unit at a time with just enough firepower to kill it.

 

[xaszatm]

Okay so I'm really struggling against my friends Riptide. I've played about 7 games against it, and I've never once taken a single wound off, nor actually won when its fielded. Once it lost a wound itself from Gets Hot, but other than that it seems, for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. 5W, 2+/5++, T6 Monstrous creature? Not only that, but its weaponry? An AP2 Large blast? REALLY?!

I've played against it with Death Guard 30k Legion and Space Wolves. I tried teleporting a kitted out Wolf Guard terminator squad in, and the damn Interceptor rule landed an AP2 Large Blast right on my Terms, killing them all. 5++ is not reliable enough. I've tried shooting it with a 10-man Legion Rocket squad, but hey, guess what? 2+ armor save. I tried charging it with Thunderwolves but they never got within 12' before being blown apart. Basically my friend camps the damn thing on the center of the board and you either crash against it like water on rocks, or swarm around it, getting shot to pieces by it and the rest of the Tau.

And I've tried what I'm convinced is the single worst tactical advice I've ever gotten: Ignore it. I really think whoever first wrote 'Ignore the Riptide' was himself a Tau player, laughing and snickering at the gullibleness of other players. "Sure, ignore the monstrous creature with an AP2 Ion Canon! Yup, you got it! That'll teach me a lesson, boy howdy! *snicker snicker*"

I mean a 5w Monstrous creature with an AP2 large blast canon? Even with Gets Hot, and its relatively bad WS(except for Marker Lights, so there's that) you can't ignore that. If its ignored, it just rampages across an entire half of the table, obliterating anything in its path, be they ThunderWolves, Rhinos, Grey Hunters, Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Terminators, hell even W2 Deathshroud terms crumpled like old paint under its stupid weight of fire.

I've been playing 40k since 4th edition. I know what can be ignored, what units you just have to tank damage from, and whats grossly unfair. The Riptide is grossly unfair.
And apparently it gets worse on the tournament stage, with players legally taking 3 riptides.

So is my understanding of the Riptide simply off? Has my friend been getting too good of rolls, or does everyone else just cringe and consider forfeiting the match before Turn 1 even starts when its on the table? Is this a unit that's gonna get nerfed hard in the next codex update? I can't see how it won't! My guess is it will either become a Lord of War, or get a 0-1 Elite option, like Obliterators. No spamming anymore, and a huge point up-cost.

...People can't be having THAT hard of a time with the Riptide. It could have been considered broken when the damn thing came out. Now? Imperial Knights, Lords of War, Almost any other long-ranged Monstrous Creature with a Ranged Weapon, and the Dark Eldar in general can run circles around that Riptide. Furthermore, I think people have been giving you the wrong information.

Marker Lights only affects BS, and only for that phase. After that, they go away. So a Tau player cannot use Markerlights in overwatch. So the first thing is to eliminate all pathfinders or any other markerlight-making unit first. Yes, even at the cost of ignoring the Riptide. The Riptide's Large Blast doesn't mean anything if it has to rely on its paltry BS3 with a Large Blast weapon.

The second thing to realize is that Interceptor and Overwatch has restrictions. If a person uses Interceptor, they cannot fire in their next Shooting Phase. Similarly, Overwatch can only be done once per unit in that phase. This means that a unit cannot support Overwatch an ally and then Overwatch a unit coming after them. Take advantage of that and have more than one unit assaulting at once. For interceptor, use Drop Pods. The Drop Pod counts as an immobile open-topped vehicle. As long as you didn't land right in front of a flamer (and even then you have 3+ Armour), all Interceptor shots hit the vehicle, not you. Plus, now they cannot fire at you in their next Shooting phase and, since Markerlights don't last the entire turn, you relieve pressure from your other units.

The Riptide is definitely not an impossible beast. I know this because I am one of the Tau players in my group (though I play the Dark Eldar more). And guess what? The Riptide is laughably easy to kill if you know what you're doing. Even baring every Lord of War Unit (seriously, why the hell do you think that a Riptide belongs there? Everything there solidly beats it down into the dust) or most other Monstrous Creatures, here a some Space Wolf and Death Guard units that can give a Riptide a hard time

- Wolf Guard in Drop Pods. Get a unit of Wolf Guard. Equip them with Combi-Meltas. Give them a Drop Pod. For extra fun, guarantee that two appear on the first turn. For 150 points, you can utterly destroy the Riptide, or at least heavily distract it from attacking your other units.

- Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods. Same Idea really, just with you getting into Melee combat. Remember that the Riptide cannot use it's Large Blast weapon against an assaulting opponent. And your armour makes it so that the Heavy Burst Cannon has to work to even scratch you. Get into Close Combat and use your higher initiative to shred the Riptide.

- Wolf Scouts. Get 10 Wolf Scouts and give them all Sniper Rifles. It is a gamble but remember that a 6 is considered an AP2 shot. Apply enough pressure and the Riptide will go down.

- Vehicles. A Predator or some Forgeworld Land Raiders can make short work of a Riptide. Hell, if you're legion, take a Predator Strike Armour Squadron. Laugh as you destroy that Riptide (and any other thing) into pieces)

The Riptide is definitely not an unstoppable beast. It seems that someone is taking advantage of their Army Specific rules in order to give them an edge. The most important thing to realize about the Tau is that they work well as an army, but poorly individually. Eliminating key units is how you destroy them. Pathfinders and any Markerlight unit gets highest priority. After that, you need to asses on your own which unit is the biggest threat and figure out what to do. After that, you can watch as the rest of the army crumbles.

Another solution is to not play for kill points. Or use Fantasy's Each unit is worth their cost in kill points. Games in which the goal is to hold the line is surprisingly easy to win despite you losing units left and right. I can't tell how many games I've lost simply because my opponent had more objectives than me, despite me destroying 75% of his army.

Hopefully these tips help.

 

[Paragon Fury]

There is no defeating the Tau. Join us, and serve the Greater Good.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

That's actually not how Interceptor works. Interceptors allows you to fire one weapon at a single target that has arrived from reserves(within range and LoS of course). This shot takes place after your opponents movement phase, but before his shooting phase. Now when it comes to drop pods and dudes inside, they arrive as one unit, for scatter dice sake and all. But immediately upon landing, all units disembark the drop pod immediately, which is now an open-top transport for all intents and purposes. That squad, say a Grey Hunter squad(And let me just say I am speaking for experience here, because I tried this exact tactic!) with a pack leader with a combi-melta and power fist, and two Hunters with melta guns. They arrive from Reserves, via Deep Strike, using a Drop pod. BOTH units count as having arrived from Reserves. They land and they disembark. Interceptor now takes affect and the Riptide can target either the Hunters or the Pod, not both. He targets the squad with his blast. Direct hit. Lose 5 men, including both melta guns and the pack leader. Take a leadership test. Fail. Retreat. They can't fire in my Shooting Phase now. Tau turn rolls around, and the Riptide still has twin-linked pulse rifles
The Hunters died before they got a single shot off. No joke. Massacred. Not that it would have done any good really, because bolters need a 6+ to Wound and it still has a 2+ save.

And lets not forget the Ion Cannon is range 72' for what, 5pts? 5pts for a Range72, S9, Ap2, Large Blast...okay that's Baneblade territory! And you don't think that belongs in the Lords of War?! I can point to dozens of Lords of War that don't have that firepower for that cheap, or at all. Not even the Primarchs get Ap2 large blast 72' range guns! And this a single Elite choice. Players can take 3 in a Bound Army!
Others have posted using Guardsmen and their ranged guns. I don't think they realized the Ion Canon's range. Even if you have artillery with 100' range, you'll never find a table that accommodates that, much less get someone to agree to playing on an eight foot long table! You are, for all intents and purposes, always within range of the Ion Canon.

Maybe a Riptide is technically kill-able, if you're willing to spend some 500+ points on glory squads with land raiders or super heavies to kill a >200pt model. And at 5w, I wouldn't get a FellBlade tank just to spend the entire game shooting at the damn Riptide. That would be a disgusting waste of a Super Heavy!

And to a larger point, if people have to come up with absurd shenanigans, like taking Eldar allies for Fire Prisms and Avatars(basically starting an entire new army!) or sending half their point cost against a relatively cheap unit, don't you see a problem with that? What if everyone needed to take Imperial Guard allies to get multiple Leman Russ Annhilators just to deal with a single Space Marine dreadnought? Or hell, make it a Contemptor Dreadnought! I doubt everyone would be as live and let live about that.

Something is wrong with a unit when the best tactic out there is keep buying models and Codexes until you find something that can, maybe, eventually kill it. Maybe I'm being an idealist, but every Codex should be able to beat any other Codex, within reason. Balance and all?

TL/DR: Riptides are not balanced, points or otherwise.

 

[xaszatm]

SNIP

That's actually not how Interceptor works. Interceptors allows you to fire one weapon at a single target that has arrived from reserves(within range and LoS of course). This shot takes place after your opponents movement phase, but before his shooting phase. Now when it comes to drop pods and dudes inside, they arrive as one unit, for scatter dice sake and all. But immediately upon landing, all units disembark the drop pod immediately, which is now an open-top transport for all intents and purposes. That squad, say a Grey Hunter squad(And let me just say I am speaking for experience here, because I tried this exact tactic!) with a pack leader with a combi-melta and power fist, and two Hunters with melta guns. They arrive from Reserves, via Deep Strike, using a Drop pod. BOTH units count as having arrived from Reserves. They land and they disembark. Interceptor now takes affect and the Riptide can target either the Hunters or the Pod, not both. He targets the squad with his blast. Direct hit. Lose 5 men, including both melta guns and the pack leader. Take a leadership test. Fail. Retreat. They can't fire in my Shooting Phase now. Tau turn rolls around, and the Riptide still has twin-linked pulse rifles
The Hunters died before they got a single shot off. No joke. Massacred. Not that it would have done any good really, because bolters need a 6+ to Wound and it still has a 2+ save.

And lets not forget the Ion Cannon is range 72' for what, 5pts? 5pts for a Range72, S9, Ap2, Large Blast...okay that's Baneblade territory! And you don't think that belongs in the Lords of War?! I can point to dozens of Lords of War that don't have that firepower for that cheap, or at all. Not even the Primarchs get Ap2 large blast 72' range guns! And this a single Elite choice. Players can take 3 in a Bound Army!
Others have posted using Guardsmen and their ranged guns. I don't think they realized the Ion Canon's range. Even if you have artillery with 100' range, you'll never find a table that accommodates that, much less get someone to agree to playing on an eight foot long table! You are, for all intents and purposes, always within range of the Ion Canon.

Maybe a Riptide is technically kill-able, if you're willing to spend some 500+ points on glory squads with land raiders or super heavies to kill a >200pt model. And at 5w, I wouldn't get a FellBlade tank just to spend the entire game shooting at the damn Riptide. That would be a disgusting waste of a Super Heavy!

And to a larger point, if people have to come up with absurd shenanigans, like taking Eldar allies for Fire Prisms and Avatars(basically starting an entire new army!) or sending half their point cost against a relatively cheap unit, don't you see a problem with that? What if everyone needed to take Imperial Guard allies to get multiple Leman Russ Annhilators just to deal with a single Space Marine dreadnought? Or hell, make it a Contemptor Dreadnought! I doubt everyone would be as live and let live about that.

Something is wrong with a unit when the best tactic out there is keep buying models and Codexes until you find something that can, maybe, eventually kill it. Maybe I'm being an idealist, but every Codex should be able to beat any other Codex, within reason. Balance and all?

TL/DR: Riptides are not balanced, points or otherwise.

OK, now you're pissing me off. Because now you have put me in a position where I have to "defend" GW's awful AWFUL balance system. Because it sucks. It sucks horribly. But you are clearly over-valuing the Riptide here. I use a Riptide occasionally. Sometimes I use 2. I have yet to win as well as you say. I win maybe...3 out of every 10 games with the Tau in compared to my 5 of of 10 with my Dark Eldar. I am utterly baffled at your screaming how "broken" the Riptide is. My Riptides never last the first half of the game. Hell, most of the time, they are gone by turn two OR the do the tactic "made by a Tau troll" and "ignore it".

What they mean is focus on getting the objectives over killing the Riptide. Remember that, unless you're playing kill points (which you REALLY shouldn't be doing), you win as long as you control the most objectives. Making objectives secured should be a higher priority than eliminating a target. I'm not saying to not pay attention to it, but when crossed between securing an objective (which usually are protected by cover and you should have been focusing all of your attack power in killing any Markerlight Squadrons to avoid losing that) and popping a shot at the Riptide, it usually pays to go for the objective instead. Keep in mind that when I say "securing the objective" I don't mean running blindly to said objective. I mean eliminating enemy units near objectives, moving units into proper position, taking advantage of cover, and elimanting the largest threats to yourself (usually Markerlights in the case for Tau, followed by flyers, followed by the Crisis Suits).

Also, you do not need 500+ points to kill a Riptide, you need 125. A predator can scare a Riptide any day of the week. Baring that, you are SPACE MARINES, you have some of the best flyer options available. The Riptide is useless against the air. Blasts can't affect flying units unless you go to hover mode. And if you know your opponents carries Broadsides in order to deal with flyers, then KILL THEM FIRST and ignore the Riptide so the flyer can get it unimpeded. You don't need a Lord of War to kill it. A Lord of War WILL kill it easily but that is overkill for something that isn't as powerful as you say.

And furthermore, you are telling me that after one try, you gave up a tactic? Really? You didn't think that maybe you should try it again? Because I played that exact scenario and I ended up missing. Guess what was a giant hole in the ground once the shooting phase was done? Actually, tell me how you lost all 7 matches? Did he table you all 7 times? Did you play kill points? Did you ignore all other units in favor of blasting the hell out of the Riptide? Because you shouldn't have lost that many times.

And yes, GW's tactic of making new models overpowered in order to force you to buy new ones is STUPID and SHADY. But you're going on the wrong model if you still think the Riptide is worth anything. Use Flyers or Predators. If anything the AX-01 is more broken. Or the Revnant Tian, Or an Imperial Knights Army allied with any other Imperial Army, or any Lord of War (baring Primarchs...maybe).

TL/DR: Riptides aren't as broken as you think. They are simply an old part (as in better units already exist) of GW's scheme to get you to buy more models. It sucks, but that's how GW rolls. Try playing Warmachine/Hordes or Firestorm Armada.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

SNIP

Tabled 7/7 games? No. Tabled 3/7 games. With Death Guard and twice Space Wolves. The others were, as far as my memory serves(it being between Thanksgiving and now) victory points: 7/0. 10/0, 4/3, 7/0 again. We go by actual rolls on deployment and objective charts with random onjectives/night fighting/etc...(you know, the rules as the book describes!), which as far as I know, is the most fair way of doing things. Saves anyone the punch in the head from playing a Kill-Points match and taking only a Legion Praetor and 10 Cataphratcii Terms. At best your opponent gets 2 points, where you get however many units he bothers to field.

I don't know how you play Riptides(Seriously not a dick at you, but my companion really plays them to their strengths, which happen to be killing anything that is less than 1+ armor...so everything), but a monstrous creature that can claim an objective and use a blast template with marker-lights to completely dislodge my Wolves from a 2nd objective by turn 2 really changes the game. To me that is, in a single shooting phase, the difference between a "Good game, first rounds on me boys! Hey, how about that Riptide?! Cheers!" and a "I got stuff to do. See you next month...maybe" Call me a sore loser, but I don't like 50% of my army being dead by turn 3. That's not fun for me, even if the points are balanced.

And before you ask, YES I DID TRY DROP PODS AND TELEPORTING IN MULTIPLE GAMES! Even tried 2 Wolf Guard Terms with thunder hammers/storm shield, wolf with cyclone launchers/storm bolter/wolf claw and 2 with wolf claws and storm bolters. All of them died before a single shot got off. And combi-weapons would have costed even more, for the same number of non-shots.

 

[L. Declis]

Blessed is the mind too small for snip

I'm gonna assume that the "unhelpful attitude" was directed, partially or indeed entirely, at me. And you're right, I was being rather unhelpful, which I blame on my increasingly poor perception of Games Workshop, which is in large part due to your own statement about needing to fix the rules I've payed 60$ for myself, because GW can't be bothered to make sure their own product works... sorry, Finecast flashbacks.

Still, you're right; I was being unhelpful, and I apologize for that. Frienemies?

Dude, I have made a few Hitler videos back in the day about Games Workshop, and especially Finecast. I have my own set of reasons to hate them as well.

I just get irritated that a lot of the older vets just cannot accept anyone enjoying GW anymore and spend their time in 40k threads telling people to quit (See Dakka Dakka, Warseer, etc).

Honestly, it wasn't really directed at you, so much as most of the comments before me as some kind of mass. Totally understand your position, and I don't blame you for not throwing your money down the GW rabbit hole. Frenemies *high five*

SNIP

SNIP

Tabled 7/7 games? No. Tabled 3/7 games. With Death Guard and twice Space Wolves. The others were, as far as my memory serves(it being between Thanksgiving and now) victory points: 7/0. 10/0, 4/3, 7/0 again. We go by actual rolls on deployment and objective charts with random onjectives/night fighting/etc...(you know, the rules as the book describes!), which as far as I know, is the most fair way of doing things. Saves anyone the punch in the head from playing a Kill-Points match and taking only a Legion Praetor and 10 Cataphratcii Terms. At best your opponent gets 2 points, where you get however many units he bothers to field.

I don't know how you play Riptides(Seriously not a dick at you, but my companion really plays them to their strengths, which happen to be killing anything that is less than 1+ armor...so everything), but a monstrous creature that can claim an objective and use a blast template with marker-lights to completely dislodge my Wolves from a 2nd objective by turn 2 really changes the game. To me that is, in a single shooting phase, the difference between a "Good game, first rounds on me boys! Hey, how about that Riptide?! Cheers!" and a "I got stuff to do. See you next month...maybe" Call me a sore loser, but I don't like 50% of my army being dead by turn 3. That's not fun for me, even if the points are balanced.

And before you ask, YES I DID TRY DROP PODS AND TELEPORTING IN MULTIPLE GAMES! Even tried 2 Wolf Guard Terms with thunder hammers/storm shield, wolf with cyclone launchers/storm bolter/wolf claw and 2 with wolf claws and storm bolters. All of them died before a single shot got off. And combi-weapons would have costed even more, for the same number of non-shots.

Right, rather than us all arguing about hypotheticals, Silent Pony, could you please post a list of what units you have and what equipment you have, as well as what your opponent typically fields in an average army. We can start to give actual responses in what units or loadouts to use, as well as what things you may wish to purchase in the future.

Because we are all now starting to shout over each other, and it's not being helpful. Let's do less theoretical, and more practical.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I just get irritated that a lot of the older vets just cannot accept anyone enjoying GW anymore and spend their time in 40k threads telling people to quit (See Dakka Dakka, Warseer, etc).

While there is an element of that, I think many older players are unhappy at the new fans continuing to support GW, despite what GW is doing, which validates what GW is doing. As long as people are happy with GW, it won't need to improve or repair itself.

 

[L. Declis]

I just get irritated that a lot of the older vets just cannot accept anyone enjoying GW anymore and spend their time in 40k threads telling people to quit (See Dakka Dakka, Warseer, etc).

While there is an element of that, I think many older players are unhappy at the new fans continuing to support GW, despite what GW is doing, which validates what GW is doing. As long as people are happy with GW, it won't need to improve or repair itself.

Well, I know a lot of older fans who have returned to GW and find it fun (yes, I know, anecdotal).

As an old vet myself (started in 3rd), I am unhappy with some things (I still miss Necromunda and Mordheim) and a decent White Dwarf (Oh, Fat Bloke, you will be missed. And Guy Haley, you were my favourite).

But GW's movement away from competition and just making a flavourful, "beer and pretzels" hobby game serves me precisely for what I want.
Personally, I think that people who want to play 40k for competition are 'doing it wrong'; there are plenty of companies who put a lot of effort into that and if you believe in the invisible hand of the market, then buy their stuff.
But I don't think any company has the lore or look of Games Workshop, which I love, and so I am quite happy to support them.
If people are happy to buy it, then that is the market. I see it in the same light as people who tell other people to stop enjoying Mass Effect or Assassin's Creed; if people like it, let them like it.