48 FPS movies. Better than 24 FPS?

XMark

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I've been following the production of the Hobbit movie for a while now, and I'm intrigued by the fact that they're filming it in 48 FPS video. I've seen discussions on it, but I'm not really sure what 48 FPS will actually look like for a high-budget movie.

Whenever I walk into an electronics store, there's always videos playing in the TV section with framerate upsampling (or whatever they call that technology), and I always think it looks really weird and unnatural.

However, I know I'm actually seeing movies which were filmed and released at 24 FPS and what I'm seeing is an artificial morphing between frames, so that probably introduces lots of false movement artifacts that feel wrong.

Video games running at 60 FPS look totally smooth and natural to me, so I'm inclined to think that a well-produced movie will look good running higher than 24 FPS. In fact, if a game fell to 24 FPS you'd consider it to be a slow and choppy frame rate. Then again, you're looking at a game in a completely different way than you'd look at a movie. Processing movement-related information is more important when you're interacting with what's going on, whereas in a Movie you're sitting back and experiencing it, so maybe games aren't a good comparison to work from.

I've seen the complaint that 24 FPS has a "cinematic" feel that would be lost if the frame rate was higher, and that a 48 FPS movie would end up looking like a TV soap opera. And maybe if you've grown up watching 24 FPS movies, 48 FPS would look worse to you even if it WAS objectively better.

TV runs at 30 FPS I think, but typically TV shows have lower budgets and lower-quality cameras than blockbuster feature films. So that may account for the less cinematic look more so than the frame rate. Besides, some of the more high-budget TV series look pretty darn nice and cinematic to me anyways.

Anyhoo... I guess I'll just have to wait for the Hobbit to come out to really see for certain if 48 FPS is actually good or not. Have there been any other high-budget major feature films at that frame rate?
 

FEichinger

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... Rip-off. Same goes for games at high framerates. You don't actually see the higher framerate ... You only see the short drops in framerate, when referring to games, which causes the choppy feel with 24 FPS. 60 FPS in games, for instance, have much more buffer downwards, so ... even if you get a one third drop, it's still smooth. That doesn't work with 24 FPS.
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
I will give you a bump because this interests me greatly. If anyone can name a few movies shot at 48 FPS (if they exist) I would be thankful.
Wasn't Collateral one? If anyone remembers that movie. I remember liking it and thinking it was a beautiful looking film, despite it being another one set in LA. I don't remember if it was that or something different about the filming...
 

Hoplon

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FEichinger said:
... Rip-off. Same goes for games at high framerates. You don't actually see the higher framerate ... You only see the short drops in framerate, when referring to games, which causes the choppy feel with 24 FPS. 60 FPS in games, for instance, have much more buffer downwards, so ... even if you get a one third drop, it's still smooth. That doesn't work with 24 FPS.
Yeah, human eyes can see the difference up to around 110 fps.
 

XMark

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This page has a nice little app showing the visual differences.

http://www.boallen.com/fps-compare.html

There's a definitely noticeable difference between 30FPS and 60FPS there. What I can't tell from just a bouncing and rotating cube, though, is whether any kind of cinematic feel is lost.
 

Fat Hippo

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I've never seen one, and I'd be surprised if any of the cinemas around where I live would even be capable of showing a movie with 48 fps, so I'll have to reserve judgment until I get the chance. Still, I'm more interested in the idea than movies in 3D, which, aside from Avatar, have all been pretty 'meh.'
 

kurupt87

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The "cinematic feel" of 24fps is the motion blur that occurs on a panning shot or fast paced action scene.

OP is right that these only seem "cinematic" because that is what the old technology could do, that over the many years people have come to associate the flaw as an actual part of what makes a film.

I'm looking forward to widespread adoption of 48fps. Motion blur has always jarred me, I have to blink and shake my head to clear it.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Anyone here recently viewed a Blu Ray video for the first time? How unnerving it was watching the incredibly smooth picture quality when compared to standard DVDs?

I have a feeling it will be something like that.
 
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FEichinger said:
Just plain wrong.

I have a 120hz monitor, and it feels far smoother than when I used to play at 60hz.
XMark said:
I would be interested to see the difference, myself. I have a camera that will record at 30fps or 60fps. Playback at 60fps from that source definitely feels a little unnatural, and less comfortable...even though it may well be a better representation of what it's like to witness the scene first hand. 30fps, relatively speaking, feels kinda dreamy and soft.
 

DefunctTheory

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
FEichinger said:
Just plain wrong.

I have a 120hz monitor, and it feels far smoother than when I used to play at 60hz.
XMark said:
I would be interested to see the difference, myself. I have a camera that will record at 30fps or 60fps. Playback at 60fps from that source definitely feels a little unnatural, and less comfortable...even though it may well be a better representation of what it's like to witness the scene first hand. 30fps, relatively speaking, feels kinda dreamy and soft.
This may just be a function of hand shake. My camera does the same thing, and my problem is that I have shaky hands. 30FPS videos don't show this as much, and it seems the video is smoother. Switch to 60FPS, and every micro tremor of my hands is transferred to the film, creating a rather jarring view.
 

Weaver

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Movies have technically always been at a 48 framerate; just that each frame is displayed twice .
I suspect you'll be able to see the difference. I can easily tell the difference between 30 and 60fps.
 
Apr 24, 2008
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AccursedTheory said:
Sexual Harassment Panda said:
FEichinger said:
Just plain wrong.

I have a 120hz monitor, and it feels far smoother than when I used to play at 60hz.
XMark said:
I would be interested to see the difference, myself. I have a camera that will record at 30fps or 60fps. Playback at 60fps from that source definitely feels a little unnatural, and less comfortable...even though it may well be a better representation of what it's like to witness the scene first hand. 30fps, relatively speaking, feels kinda dreamy and soft.
This may just be a function of hand shake. My camera does the same thing, and my problem is that I have shaky hands. 30FPS videos don't show this as much, and it seems the video is smoother. Switch to 60FPS, and every micro tremor of my hands is transferred to the film, creating a rather jarring view.
I'm sure that's an issue. But I tend to clamp the camera down pretty good before I start shooting. Most of the time I use it, it is stationary...and 60fps still looks weird.
 

Slippers

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To be honest. The games running 60+ FPS give you a "clearer" image than what your eyes give you in the real world.

Take an average fps, make the camera look quickly to one side or the other, now do the same with your own head. You should notice that your eyes "lag" quite a bit more.
 

XMark

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Sexual Harassment Panda said:
I'm sure that's an issue. But I tend to clamp the camera down pretty good before I start shooting. Most of the time I use it, it is stationary...and 60fps still looks weird.
There's also shutter speed to think of. 24 FPS is usually normal, but changing the shutter speed can make it seem quite different. Take Saving Private Ryan for example. The intro battle scene was shot in 24 FPS but with a really fast shutter speed to remove motion blur, resulting in a completely different feel which was deliberately choppy.

So going up to a higher frame rate would also mean tweaking the shutter speed proportionately. I'm sure hollywood has figured out exactly the right shutter speeds to use for different effects at 24 FPS, but at 48 they'll need to figure it out again by trial and error.
 

XMark

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heh, in the past I've always had substandard computers to play games on, and I would regularly play games at 10 FPS or less. But now even I feel the choppiness when modern games drop into an FPS rate in the 20s. I guess I just get spoiled easily.