Bioware Heads Debate Whether Wii Constitutes Gaming

Junaid Alam

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Bioware Heads Debate Whether Wii Constitutes Gaming

In a recent interview, Bioware heads Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk expressed disagreement over whether the Wii constituted gaming versus just playing with a toy.

Originally responding to a question about whether storylines are the motor force behind genuine advances in gaming, the pair debated whether the Wii's casual, socially oriented model could be called gaming, and what it is that defines the activity.

"There's a narrative there, too, between people playing sports," Muzyka said about the dynamic of the Wii. "It's actually a narrative between the people playing it. It's sort of one level abstracted from the game...I think it's still part of the game experience."

Zeschuck, though, took a different approach, likening the Wii to playing with a toy, given the absence of a conventional narrative.

"[T]hose kinds of experiences are much more like a toy experience. They're playing, together or not, but you're not 'gaming' anymore. What's different than you actually playing tennis?"

To which Muzyka ultimately responded: "When you look at a moment to moment experience what a player does on a Wii game, it's different, lighter, and more toy-like. But there's also a narrative between the players outside the game and kind of fulfills the same things games do. Games are 'toys' in the sense that they're fun."

Bioware, which is behind a number of A-list story-heavy roleplaying games, the latest of which was Mass Effect, does not have any games out or officially planned for the Wii.

Source: Gamedaily.com [http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/features/interview-bioware-on-narrative-wii-gaming-mainstream-press-mmos--more/?biz=1&page=1]


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GyroCaptain

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Well, BioWare have always invested heavily into spectacle and long play, both of which would be crippled in execution on the Wii when compared with current standards. This is in addition to the fact that virtually any BioWare game released on the Wii outside the console's target demographic would be a gamble. I also should point out that their programmers have certain quirks in execution of tasks that would make control schemes and frame rates suffer.
 

Melaisis

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Some would say that the inclusion of unnecessarily complicated storylines (which do nothing but further elitism within the 'hardcore' gaming crowd) which include ultra-softcore sex scenes leaked to attempt to boost sales instead of real marketing wasn't real game development, either.

Some would say that.
 

Razzle Bathbone

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Gaming has existed for thousands of years before the invention of the computer.

Games are games, not stories.

The only people in the world who don't know these things are professional electronic game developers.

By their logic, Go must be a toy, not a game.
 

GyroCaptain

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Quite right. They want to make RPGs, and not on the Wii, so they tried to defend that decision not by demographics but by getting poncy and discussing it as metagaming with poor language. I likes the Mass Effect, but the good doctors may need a bit of head-ass interface adjustment.
 

IronMuck

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I'm not really sure what to say. They're talking alot of crap (Sorry, terminology) so that it's hard to interpret what they actually mean.

I don't think you can call any console itself "gaming" on the basis that the console alone does nothing. If they're refering to games on the wii then really they're picking and choosing to match their criteria. Zelda and Fire Emblem, along with countless other games, all have storylines so if the difference between being a toy and being a game is a story then all books are games, and alot of board GAMES aren't games at all.
As already said, i think this is simply alot of bullshit that says, we're not going to release games on the wii.

Finally, i think a very loose idea of a toy is basically something which requires imagination to "function". A lightsaber toy is no fun if you aren't pretending to be battling hordes of sex offenders with it for example. A game has parameters which you operate within in order to have fun EG: The board game Risk, you use the playing board, peices and rules in order to play a game. (this may not be completely clear, it sounds good to my mind now, but if its phrased badly or something just complain and i'll attempt to make sense... That or apologise and retreat from the forums)
Just my thoughts.
 

Echolocating

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Zeschuk had this little gem to say shortly after, in the interview...

...if people aren't familiar with games and haven't played them, and their experience is only from the arcade or the Wii, they tend to do a one-size-fits-all. But really what's happening is there's an incredibly broad range of experiences. A deep, hardcore MMO is completely different than Mass Effect, which is completely different than Ninja Gaiden, which is completely different from Wii.
Yes, Greg, lumping all games into a one-size-fits-all mentality is ignorant... that's why there is Mass Effect, Ninja Gaiden, and Wii.

Need I point out the irony? ;-)
 

stompy

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I'm a Bioware fan, who immensely enjoyed Mass Effect.

While I readily admit this, I think that the guys who reckons that games need story is completely wrong. As stated before, by Razzle, IronMuck, and Echolocationg (sorry if I haven't mentioned you), if games needed stories to be called games, then movies and books would be considered games.

No, what makes a game, IMO, is interaction. A game allows players to interact, to play out, to become part of the narrative. Hell, for me, gameplay is more important to story (which is why I like FPSs).

Another thing: Bioware games are RPGs, meaning they need are amounts of disk space, and all that; something that can't be done on the Wii. So, instead of owning up to the fact they're a one-trick pony (regardless of how good they are), they make up an excuse. Not cool man.

- A procrastinator
 

jennifr

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I understand a "game" to be the concept that provides the framework, defines the rules, interactions and challenges when playing, while a "toy" is merely an instrument I use while playing.

For a kid, the game might be fully constructed in his head while he battles with his toy soldiers. For the Wii or any other console, IMO the hardware is the toy that allows the interaction (e.g. controller, plastic tennis racket extension and all the other stuff they offer) while the actual game (yes, game...) provides you with the framework, the motivation why you spend your time in the basement without windows, living off cold pizza etc.

Echolocating said:
Yes, Greg, lumping all games into a one-size-fits-all mentality is ignorant... that's why there is Mass Effect, Ninja Gaiden, and Wii.

Need I point out the irony? ;-)
That is a brilliant quote. I didn't know they now sell the Wii without a disk slot and with Wii Sports as the only built in cartridge ;)
 

Arbre

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1. That narrative outside the game is just fluff and fancy talk. There's just as much narrative related to gaming as when I go out to complete mundane tasks.

2. To Zeschuck, "gaming" (video gaming here) precisely started with playing tennis on the TV.
 

Human Bomb

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So in Bioware's collective mind:

Gaming = A long, drawn out story with a vaguely interactive mechanism to get through it. (i.e. KOTOR, where the "gaming" is all item management, walking, pressing a few buttons over and over, and choosing branching dialogue.)

Playing with toys = A highly interactive experience involving the skill and effort of the player directly resulting in some sort of reward, accomplishment, or entertainment. (i.e. Metroid Prime 3, where "playing with this 'toy' the Wii" is all exploring, blowing things up, running, dodging, investigating anything that looks suspicious, and interacting with the environment and characters to progress.)

Now no one could ever say that Prime 3 isn't story laden. It has tons of excellent writing and backstory just seeping out of the cracks in each planet. You just don't have to follow the ancient formula of a choose your own adventure novel to get to each story morsel.
 

pasquinelli

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it's already been said, but i think it needs to be brought to sharp focus:

the wii is not a game.

edit: it's a machine.
 

Lvl 64 Klutz

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Apr 8, 2008
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I'm so confused. All this pointless and horribly phrased hate towards the Wii from developers. I knew Nintendo was having trouble with third party support, but this is starting to get kind of ridiculous. The console has a lot of potential, if someone would be willing to take some risks.


And last time I checked, a "toy" is an instrument for play, a "game" is a form of play. Therefore, every console is merely a toy.
 

Lukeje

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As a random tangent, isn't Bioware making a Sonic game for the DS? If so, how can they say that they dislike the Wii for being 'toy-like'?!
 

fnph

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Well, they were right on one thing. The Wii isn't a game. Of course, not is it a toy, it's quite clearly a game's console.
I think it's safe to say that Mario Kart, Mario Galaxy, Twilight Princess, No More Heroes, Zack and Wiki, Resi 4, etc. etc. are all games. Hell, even Wii Sports, which seems to be what they think the Wii is, is a game.
Why do they think a game has to have a story to be a game anyway? Tetris is a game, there's no story there. Egotistical freaks.
 

Human Bomb

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Poorly phrased is right. They are debating "whether wii constitutes gaming." Last time I checked, the Wii is a video game console. Sure it has a very casual element, and it also tells us what the weather and news is. It does share photos, and email, and emulate a bunch of classic systems, but how does that make it any different from the other systems.

There is a big irony here. The Wii is probably the most elemental gaming console on the market. It doesn't play movies. In fact they specifically avoided making it be something other than a game console. If any system could have shame heaped on it for not being a gaming system it's the PLAYSTATION 3. A 'bargain' priced Blu-ray player that still seems to languish in some sort of exclusives hell.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Razzle Bathbone said:
Gaming has existed for thousands of years before the invention of the computer.

Games are games, not stories.

The only people in the world who don't know these things are professional electronic game developers.

By their logic, Go must be a toy, not a game.
Bioware respectfully disagrees.