Bioware Heads Debate Whether Wii Constitutes Gaming

[Echolocating]

On a slightly different tangent, I was discussing an idea for an online sci-fi role-playing game once that was more focused on role-play and completely level-less. Sure you got to discover new things and learn new skills that let you advance within the environment and story wise, but it didn't require you to kill 1000 mutant rats to magically learn how to hack computer systems. Anyway, the further I described the game to others, the more I was told that it wasn't really a game. Not a game? It really depends on how you define a game then.

I was told that a game is a competition of sorts governed by rules with a clear winner at the conclusion. I really couldn't argue with that logic. I wasn't insulted, mind you. I was just really interested in what constitutes a game, at that point.

When I look at Bioware's games, I would say I completed Jade Empire... but why do I say that I beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out? It's like, somewhere along the line, games became less about competition (winning/losing) and more about a vehicle for narration (finished/unfinished). At some point, the game aspect merged with the narration and people didn't realize it.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.

 

[jennifr]

At some point, the game aspect merged with the narration and people didn't realize it.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.

I would argue that traditionally, the word has always been used for both - at least I'd say that's the case in the German language. I'm not a native speaker so it might be different in German vocab, but I'll try to explain what I mean.

The word for game, "Spiel" has exactly the same roots as the verb for playing, "spielen". So you use spielen/"to play" for both playing a game and pretend play, as in "let's play knights" - I don't know whether you'd actually use it like that in English. Maybe a native speaker can help me out here: would you call kids playing some fantasy situation playing a "princess game" or something similar?

What I'm trying to get to is this: At least in Germany, the word is used for both playing in a challenge with set rules, were you "beat" the other, but also in a situation where the fun is the process of playing in a fantasy world, the narrative part. So there really isn't anything new in the concept of bringing narration into games. The new part is, IMO, that we now have the means to provide an interactive virtual reality other than in your imagination that is just as fascinating. What we used to only be able to do with imagination, we can now experience visually, with sound, tactile feedback. And most importantly, we are no longer limited to our own imagination, creativity and talent. Come on now, how many of you would be able to, or want to, imagine a setting like FEAR in all its detail? Narrative games offer us packages of other brilliant peoples ideas and talents to experience ourselves - great imagination in a box with a price tag.

Coming back to the topic, I think games exist in all flavors between the extremes of basic rules, just beat the opponent, and narration that comes close to interactive movies. Neither is worse or less fun than the other if well done - of course people have different preferences. Kids and adults years and years before us have enjoyed these various styles of games before, just with different means.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Gaming has existed for thousands of years before the invention of the computer.

Games are games, not stories.

The only people in the world who don't know these things are professional electronic game developers.

By their logic, Go must be a toy, not a game.

Bioware respectfully disagrees.

A game IS a story, games are an instinctive representation of a real world situation, as you say, before computers, they were "catch" "tag" "play mum" "play hunter" even animals play fight and play out real world situations.

Games are a story, a tool for teaching, a toy is a thing for amusement.

Computer games are, while not direct comparisons, evolutions of the basic game components, play fighting, self defense, the hunter, the domestic task, the competition.

This is not to say the Wii is not a gaming machine (my definition of game includes all the Wii activities, it is gaming... justa fairly gimmicky one, how many 'swing the bat' games can one console produce, they seem to be accelerating daily...), i'm just clarifying the nature of a story.

 

[portuga-man]

So let me see if i get this straight. For Bioware, you can only call a game "gaming" if it has a story? If yes, then what were we all doing in the 80's? If I misunderstood, please disregard what I just said

Also, arcades anyone? they were a place not only to play games, but also to talk with fellow gamers. And still, no one doubts arcades constitutes/ed gaming (as far as i know, at least).

This guys are nuts.

 

[Lucane]

On a slightly different tangent, I was discussing an idea for an online sci-fi role-playing game once that was more focused on role-play and completely level-less. Sure you got to discover new things and learn new skills that let you advance within the environment and story wise, but it didn't require you to kill 1000 mutant rats to magically learn how to hack computer systems. Anyway, the further I described the game to others, the more I was told that it wasn't really a game. Not a game? It really depends on how you define a game then.

That sorta sounds like a point an click adventure game to me .. well with out the point an click part.

Ok if you never level-up (Like in Zelda.) you can just aquire weapon/skills to attack the enemy that might be the only means to hurt new ones or just better, and instead of harder hitting enemies they could just be more percise or elusive. Also it looks like your first tools if not replaced would actually be useful later or not.[This is just my take on what your saying though... Sounds like a game i'd wanna play or played before but a new take on the experience is always welcome.]

On Topic... IMO A toy is something that has no manual or intructions toward a prepackaged set of rules for the object(s)/device(s) with intent to be "Playing". Where as a Game is anything with a set of rules, laws, or guidelines which is the most flexibe meaning that would allow for your own twist of preestablished rules or creation of new ones for "Playing".

exp. "Monopoly" When you land on Park Place is it "Free parking" or collect money form losses form other elements of the game?" In short yes Wii is a Gaming system.

 

[InsoFox]

Um, well I don't know what anyone else is doing on their Wii, but I'm gaming! If anything, Wii is more of a gaming console than either of the others, just because with the 360 and PS3 there's a load of non-gaming stuff to do, where with the Wii it's fairly limited what you can do outside of the games. Just a thought.

I don't see a real, substantial difference between my 360 gaming and Wii gaming. The types of games are often very different, but it doesn't feel like I'm doing an entirely different class of activity on each one.

EDIT: I suppose they might be talking about all of the various party games you can get and play with friends. I suppose it is a different class of activity in that case, something akin to getting together to play a board game, but I don't think it's so different that it needs to be called an entirely new thing. Sure, it's a new, communal way of playing which hasn't really happened before (it's not quite the same feel as just playing multiplayer on 360) but then so were FPS games when they were first created. So maybe it's more like a new genre - or at least an old one which has found a new way to become popular.

Aaanyway, I don't play on my Wii for that sort of game, so I'm still regular ol' gaming.

 

[Human Bomb]

Um, well I don't know what anyone else is doing on their Wii, but I'm gaming! If anything, Wii is more of a gaming console than either of the others, just because with the 360 and PS3 there's a load of non-gaming stuff to do, where with the Wii it's fairly limited what you can do outside of the games. Just a thought.

But previously

Poorly phrased is right. They are debating "whether wii constitutes gaming." Last time I checked, the Wii is a video game console. Sure it has a very casual element, and it also tells us what the weather and news is. It does share photos, and email, and emulate a bunch of classic systems, but how does that make it any different from the other systems.
There is a big irony here. The Wii is probably the most elemental gaming console on the market. It doesn't play movies. In fact they specifically avoided making it be something other than a game console. If any system could have shame heaped on it for not being a gaming system it's the PLAYSTATION 3. A 'bargain' priced Blu-ray player that still seems to languish in some sort of exclusives hell.

I think your forgetting that the Wii has lots of non-game features, it just so happens to be the only one that isn't trying to sell itself as either:
a) A pre-packaged PC gaming platform (less now with the 360 as it was with the original xbox.)
b) A multimedia juggernaut that plays proprietary media formats (In addition to blu-ray it also plays SACD (another format that Sony owns).)

 

[InsoFox]

Um, well I don't know what anyone else is doing on their Wii, but I'm gaming! If anything, Wii is more of a gaming console than either of the others, just because with the 360 and PS3 there's a load of non-gaming stuff to do, where with the Wii it's fairly limited what you can do outside of the games. Just a thought.

But previously

Poorly phrased is right. They are debating "whether wii constitutes gaming." Last time I checked, the Wii is a video game console. Sure it has a very casual element, and it also tells us what the weather and news is. It does share photos, and email, and emulate a bunch of classic systems, but how does that make it any different from the other systems.
There is a big irony here. The Wii is probably the most elemental gaming console on the market. It doesn't play movies. In fact they specifically avoided making it be something other than a game console. If any system could have shame heaped on it for not being a gaming system it's the PLAYSTATION 3. A 'bargain' priced Blu-ray player that still seems to languish in some sort of exclusives hell.

I think your forgetting that the Wii has lots of non-game features, it just so happens to be the only one that isn't trying to sell itself as either:
a) A pre-packaged PC gaming platform (less now with the 360 as it was with the original xbox.)
b) A multimedia juggernaut that plays proprietary media formats (In addition to blu-ray it also plays SACD (another format that Sony owns).)

I haven't forgotten about those, but I don't think there's a real argument that the non-gaming content of the Wii even approaches that of the other two consoles, and it isn't meant to. In fact, the only extra I'd really like for the Wii is perhaps a channel that lets me know about upcoming releases, and I hear there's one in the works.

 

[Arbre]

Lumines was an excellent game because it had a story put in by the devs.

 

[Human Bomb]

Lumines was an excellent game because it had a story put in by the devs.

Had one of the best gripping 100 hour long narratives ever! With female alien sekx.

 

[bobraj]

So based on this criteria, Pong, Space Invaders, Street Fighter, heck, most every arcade game are toys, not a videogames.

It is worth pointing out that the shooter/ vehicle aspects of Mass Effect are actually rather shoddy when compared with the high quality of the rest of the game (graphics, narrative, soundtrack, etc) and what is currently available on the console. I don't think that the "game" would have lost much of it's appeal if these sections were removed altogether.

Based on this, I would like to add to the debate by saying that Mass Effect is a (at best second-rate) erotic science fiction novel, not a videogame!

 

[Arbre]

Lumines was an excellent game because it had a story put in by the devs.

Had one of the best gripping 100 hour long narratives ever! With female alien sekx.

I never got to that point unfortunately.
I keep picking the wrong choice of the multi-branching storyline, the one the always ends badly. I think I should read some walkthrough one day, just to see the end credits.

 

[Echolocating]

I would argue that traditionally, the word has always been used for both - at least I'd say that's the case in the German language. I'm not a native speaker so it might be different in German vocab, but I'll try to explain what I mean.

The word for game, "Spiel" has exactly the same roots as the verb for playing, "spielen". So you use spielen/"to play" for both playing a game and pretend play, as in "let's play knights" - I don't know whether you'd actually use it like that in English. Maybe a native speaker can help me out here: would you call kids playing some fantasy situation playing a "princess game" or something similar?

We'd typically say they are just "playing princess," but essentially, yes, the kids are playing a game of sorts (as in a fun activity). The word game has a few different meanings and context is everything. In one instance it can mean an amusing pastime and in the next it can mean a competitive activity. Perhaps that is why defining what makes a video game is a difficult task because the very label we use, "game," can encompass almost any aspect of entertainment we choose. As long as it's interactive, meaning the user can change the experience in some manner, and entertaining then maybe that's all we need to define it? I'm arguing semantics though. In the end, it doesn't matter, as long as somebody wants to play it, it can be called a game... and that's okay. ;-) I agree with the rest of your post as well, jennifr.

-----

That sorta sounds like a point an click adventure game to me .. well with out the point an click part.

Ok if you never level-up (Like in Zelda.) you can just aquire weapon/skills to attack the enemy that might be the only means to hurt new ones or just better, and instead of harder hitting enemies they could just be more percise or elusive. Also it looks like your first tools if not replaced would actually be useful later or not.[This is just my take on what your saying though... Sounds like a game i'd wanna play or played before but a new take on the experience is always welcome.]

Yeah, it's actually just a role-playing/social game with a defined sci-fi setting. It wouldn't satisfy the Zelda crowd at all. ;-) That said though, it would be like Zelda without any twitch-skill. Anyway, I just didn't want to pretend it was something that it wasn't. A very niche market thing, to say the least. But it is planned to be side-scrolling, oddly enough... 2D is the new dimension! ;-)