Complete Mike Mearls D&D 4th Edition Essentials Interview
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I'm only commenting on the "Introduction" to the interview; and I'd like to say, that was well and diplomatically said...
Hell, you didn't even ask anyone for their home address to sort it out later
It is interesting, and I hope a good sign, that people feel so strongly about this that the kind of emotionally-charged knee-jerk responses to which the intro was a rejoinder to - and a clarification to prevent further - that they care so much, even if it comes out irrationally perhaps;
has to be a sign that the hobby is not dead.
I sit sinking as a business? Well, I'd like to point out that "real role-playing games" have always been a niche - the better games never had much of a market anyway - and the truth is, TSR tried to make money by expanding the demographic and watering down games in the 80's -
which tended to drive away the original audience to other games - but it was in search of a larger audience. Much of TSR's revenue wasn't from games anyway, or was tied into the "many buckets" of it's sub-settings.
And that's exaclty the point - it HAD to be - there was only so large a market for RPG's then, and once they bought their core books, you had to make more product or get a larger audience to sell to.
We see this in movies and video games frequently enough.
We see it now as, I hope many recall, after spellfire and dragondice, TSR/WOTC tried to compete with the mageknight-heroclix "fad" by releasing "chainamil" - then more successfully re-releasing it as D&D Miniatures.
I don't think many people disagree that 4th hoped to expand the fan base in the same way that TSr tried to in the 80's - this time the model is mini's games ( more the kitschy ones than the "realistic" tactical wargames D&d is from, chainmail name aside), and quite relatedly,
it's avowed similarity to MMO's.
Love it or leave it, the impression I get is that 4th, making the game more reflective of it's competition, succeeded with some and failed with others, based entirely on what they want and expect in a RPG - and that Mr Mearls simply has a different model than his predecessors.
Death knell or not, I wouldn't claim to know, but I'd like to point out, the market for the actual RPG's was never as large as that for video games, for MMO's, for Magic & it's copies...
It's a niche, but it's a large niche.
Hell, you didn't even ask anyone for their home address to sort it out later
It is interesting, and I hope a good sign, that people feel so strongly about this that the kind of emotionally-charged knee-jerk responses to which the intro was a rejoinder to - and a clarification to prevent further - that they care so much, even if it comes out irrationally perhaps;
has to be a sign that the hobby is not dead.
I sit sinking as a business? Well, I'd like to point out that "real role-playing games" have always been a niche - the better games never had much of a market anyway - and the truth is, TSR tried to make money by expanding the demographic and watering down games in the 80's -
which tended to drive away the original audience to other games - but it was in search of a larger audience. Much of TSR's revenue wasn't from games anyway, or was tied into the "many buckets" of it's sub-settings.
And that's exaclty the point - it HAD to be - there was only so large a market for RPG's then, and once they bought their core books, you had to make more product or get a larger audience to sell to.
We see this in movies and video games frequently enough.
We see it now as, I hope many recall, after spellfire and dragondice, TSR/WOTC tried to compete with the mageknight-heroclix "fad" by releasing "chainamil" - then more successfully re-releasing it as D&D Miniatures.
I don't think many people disagree that 4th hoped to expand the fan base in the same way that TSr tried to in the 80's - this time the model is mini's games ( more the kitschy ones than the "realistic" tactical wargames D&d is from, chainmail name aside), and quite relatedly,
it's avowed similarity to MMO's.
Love it or leave it, the impression I get is that 4th, making the game more reflective of it's competition, succeeded with some and failed with others, based entirely on what they want and expect in a RPG - and that Mr Mearls simply has a different model than his predecessors.
Death knell or not, I wouldn't claim to know, but I'd like to point out, the market for the actual RPG's was never as large as that for video games, for MMO's, for Magic & it's copies...
It's a niche, but it's a large niche.
I like to see that he's invested in the work. I like the 4.0 system but I can't keep up with buying so many books for options. BUT, there ARE options. I would really like to let them know that they did a good job no matter what ppl say still clinging to 3.5. My own gaming group has long dismembered mostly b/c of life but also a split as to 3.5 vs. 4. To be honest I played 4 for the shortest amount of time but I found that to be more enjoyable. I like the nuances that you could find in combining powers. So congrats Wizards on a job well done. I will be back to play as soon as I can find another group .
.
I have to say, I appreciated reading this interview. I'm not exactly a "consume and move on" player, but I always enjoyed 4th for the ability to make the characters I could never quite pull off in earlier editions.
I am curious - and this is in no way an insult, slight , or whatever -AzraelSteel said:
this is a question of taste and preference , not "a right way" argument...
I am curious if you are an anime/manga fan and if the characters you built are kind of "super-heroish" in the manga/ kung fu/ final fantasy character sense?
It seemed to me alot of the controversy over 4th was ultimately about how much someone likes that in their game ( the teifling, eldar, and dragon races point at this nicely ).
So may I ask what kind of caharcters you made in 4th that wouldn't have worked as well in previous editions?
Well, for me, there's the Warlord class. In 3.5, I don't remember seeing a class made to lead people. (Here, I'm talking about the multiple player's handbook and the "Complete" books of 3.5)Badger Kyre said:
With my warlord, I never attack to do dmg. My attacks place others on the field, make allies who are better than me attack, sustain and buff my allies. Maybe a cleric in 3.5 could do that, but you can't have a cleric that doesn't follow a deity.
Off the top of my head the Miniature's Handbook had two: The Marshal and the Warchief, with the Marshal being the closer fit.lomylithruldor said:
Obviously different books series have seen different levels of balance (and acceptance,) but the Miniature's Handbooks "seems legit" in hindsight if for no other reason than D&D's now heavy emphasis (if not reliance) on miniatures. It was hardly something out of way left field like Tome of Battle. Which, given the similarities between ToB and 4th Ed actually seems like a really poor comparison.
In the economics of the roleplaying games, i see one unique point, which was mentionted at the end of the Interview by Mike, when he said that people still play starcraft.
The question is, how much money got blizzard of them after there purchase of starcraft?
Once someone/a group has found the perfect rpg for their tastes, they play it forever, because the creation of new material and houserules is so easy.
For the players that is great, for the industry not so good.
My gamemaster has found Shadowrun 2/3 and Earthdawn as best for his taste. Both systems are out of print, but the limiting factor of our fun, is finding time for sessions, not running out of material.
So, we have a business, where making you customers happy and not making them happy is bad for your longterm success.
So changing stuff is necessary for succes, once you have grown to a certain point. Because the people, who where perfectly happy with your old game, dont need a new one.
The question is, how much money got blizzard of them after there purchase of starcraft?
Once someone/a group has found the perfect rpg for their tastes, they play it forever, because the creation of new material and houserules is so easy.
For the players that is great, for the industry not so good.
My gamemaster has found Shadowrun 2/3 and Earthdawn as best for his taste. Both systems are out of print, but the limiting factor of our fun, is finding time for sessions, not running out of material.
So, we have a business, where making you customers happy and not making them happy is bad for your longterm success.
So changing stuff is necessary for succes, once you have grown to a certain point. Because the people, who where perfectly happy with your old game, dont need a new one.
I'm glad you posted the whole interview. It really brought out some of the parts I was curious about when reading the abridged interview.
Now that I understand the goals and mindset behind Essentials better, and understand where Mike is coming from on a personal level, I just wanted to wish you luck, Mike. I'm one of WOTC's harshest critics, as you can see from my blog and from posts I've made all over the place as Joethelawyer, but hopefully you can change my perception going forward. It really does seem like your heart is in the right place on this. If you can make it so that D&D is still on the shelves when my nieces and nephews go to college, and has enough of a fanbase to ensure that they can get a PnP RPG pickup game on campus, I'll put you right up there with Dancy as one of the people who helped preserve the hobby I love for the people I love.
I'm assuming you are reading this, Mike, because of your comments in the article, so I'll just go ahead and ask it: Why not make the pdf's of all the older edition material available again? In one fell swoop you would regain a tremendous amount of goodwill from part of the community you are trying to sell Essentials to. At least the part that can create a lot of positive buzz about it.
Joe
http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com
Now that I understand the goals and mindset behind Essentials better, and understand where Mike is coming from on a personal level, I just wanted to wish you luck, Mike. I'm one of WOTC's harshest critics, as you can see from my blog and from posts I've made all over the place as Joethelawyer, but hopefully you can change my perception going forward. It really does seem like your heart is in the right place on this. If you can make it so that D&D is still on the shelves when my nieces and nephews go to college, and has enough of a fanbase to ensure that they can get a PnP RPG pickup game on campus, I'll put you right up there with Dancy as one of the people who helped preserve the hobby I love for the people I love.
I'm assuming you are reading this, Mike, because of your comments in the article, so I'll just go ahead and ask it: Why not make the pdf's of all the older edition material available again? In one fell swoop you would regain a tremendous amount of goodwill from part of the community you are trying to sell Essentials to. At least the part that can create a lot of positive buzz about it.
Joe
http://wondrousimaginings.blogspot.com
I'm a 29 year vet of D&D as well, and I very much dislike manga in my games; Tieflings, dragonborn and eladrin (in the guise of high elves) have been in the game for a lot longer than manga has been popular, and I honestly don't see parallels with these races. 4th would not do manag themes well at all, in my opinion. It seems like Exalted was tailor made for such, anyway.Badger Kyre said:
As to the article: interesting rebuttal, but I think it's an unfortunate response/rise to the ridiculous level of flame bait going on over at rpg.net; as a gamer myself who believes games are best played, not debated and picked apart endlessly, I find little controversy here, other than in how sad this aging hobby can look at times as it seems to try and tear itself apart; for some reason paper and pencil rpgs aren't handling generational transitions/aging demographic issues very well, it seems.
But still, good rebuttal, I suppose!
I was impressed with this interview - I'm one of those that gave up on 4e in favor of other games because of, primarily, the "dissociation" problem. I game to take on the role of a character and immerse in a fantasy world, and it seemed like 4e was too focused on being a tactical wargame to pay that much mind. I am very happy that some of that's been acknowledged and it makes me much more likely to take a look at D&D Essentials.
I'll post more thoroughly later, but this is much of my sentiment. The fact that you show such a grasp of the gamne design blog language is encouraging in and of itself.mxyzplk said:
Then do the research. You're a journalist, after all.Alexander Macris said:
You could start with how 4th Edition saw larger print runs than 3rd Edition and still sold through them faster than 3rd Edition. Or you could look at how 4th Edition placed better and lasted longer on bestseller lists than 3rd Edition. Or you could factor in D&D Insider and how it's allowed WotC to cut out the middle men and increase profits without selling more books. Or you could note that 4th Edition managed all this and more despite debuting in the middle of the Great Recession.
Or you could just be a typical uninformed interweb writer.
Ouch, that RPG.Net thread is full of vitriol. They REALLY don't like you.
I'll admit that I am a 4E scheptic. Not as much as my friends, I at least bought the core books, but still very critical of the massive changes they did to the system. I don't like the shortened skill list, as that makes characters within a point or two of having the same bonus on many skills. I REALLY don't like the minatures rules with the pushing/pulling powers. And just the general MMORPG feel, with 'timers' on powers, marking, the labeling of the roles classes are 'supposed' to play and that you can disenchant magic items into Dream Dus.....I mean Residiuum.
But that interview seemed pretty balanced. You asked questions that needed to be asked and we received better (in my opinion) answers than we have received from the other people who have held Mr. Mearls job.
I wanna believe that he will guide the system back to better days, but it really is a wait and see game.
PS: THAC0!!!!!!
I'll admit that I am a 4E scheptic. Not as much as my friends, I at least bought the core books, but still very critical of the massive changes they did to the system. I don't like the shortened skill list, as that makes characters within a point or two of having the same bonus on many skills. I REALLY don't like the minatures rules with the pushing/pulling powers. And just the general MMORPG feel, with 'timers' on powers, marking, the labeling of the roles classes are 'supposed' to play and that you can disenchant magic items into Dream Dus.....I mean Residiuum.
But that interview seemed pretty balanced. You asked questions that needed to be asked and we received better (in my opinion) answers than we have received from the other people who have held Mr. Mearls job.
I wanna believe that he will guide the system back to better days, but it really is a wait and see game.
PS: THAC0!!!!!!
Well, I think the manga/ kung fu/ superhero stuff all takes up the same "head space", so to speak - MovieBob did an article on that, using hogwarts/ x-men et al as his example.camazotz said:
I think thematically, even if you disagree with my "manga" / final fantasy term, the point is still valid - the older "pulp" fantasy tended to be more about the "hero" - less super -
whereas the "newer" fantasy tends to have more of a "superhero" ( what i call manga- ish ) feel-
and I don't totally disagree with you - alot of that shift i saw, myself, when TSR started purposefully marketing towards the "comic book" demographic ( and you're right, that is before manga had made it's way into western fantasy).
ALOT of the underlying argument to me SEEMS to come down to that difference in taste - people who like the grim "realistic" fantasy ( MArtin or Cook would be modern examples of this sensibilty) as opposed to people who like more of the "superhero" high fantasy ( Salvatore is a good example of that )
I think this point remains valid even if you disagree with my terms.
ANd i want to be clear that although I MYSELf have my preferences, I don't say "my way" is the right/ true/ perfect way - 'tis a matter of taste and flavor.
I think alot of the debate is, unintentionally, people defending their preference on this.
Relatedly is the "dissociated mechanic" issue, which to me mirrors this - some people want an RPG to be, more or less their interaction with a fantasy world that, until RPG's, one could only spectate in instead of participate in...
I'd like to think that, relatedly, this comes back to what you said - a good part of why rpg's as we knew them may be "threatened" - the ability to interact is no longer a "new" concept/ monopoly.
Certanly a recurring theme in Mr Mearns discussion is the accessibility of interacting, that other mediums prove to be easier, or at least more accessible, than the traditional RPG with all it's complexity and "volume".
Edit/ Post script - i personally don't like 4th very much - matter of taste - and i definitely feel it is geared towards "super" characters.
I also think 3rd was BETTER as a tactical wargame, Temple of Ellie Evil being a fine example - certainly the characters had more tactical OPTIONS with feats than are offered in the powers choices in 4th.
The only thing I personally liked about 4th, mechanically, was that FINALLY your combat skill makes you harder to hit ( which we have always had as a house rule).
Interesting, seems I am not the only one that started D&D in '81.
Moldvay/ Erol Otus cover basic set FTW.
We tell the Hobgoblins: " Gary sent us".
And by the way:
Tiefling? From Planescape, arguably the most 'super' setting of TSR.
Eladrin ( yes, high elves to distinguish from Wood Elves - a Tolkien dichotomy of Hobbit and LOTR, I beleiev ) - with their "bamf" are pretty fucking "manga" super IMO.
The Drow as a player race, and hell, unearthed arcana overall, is when I started noticing this trend, myself - of course the monk was in AD&D, and that's straight out of Kung Fu movies - so
Camazotz's point is still valid - at leats at higher levels when D&d got "super" anyway - my personal taste was always to lower level games anyway ( why i preferred Runequest)...
However, having these kinds of "super powers" as first-level pc's is more the gist of what i meant, and it's certainly a "manga"-like sensibility ( head space ) - and I think that is fairly specific to 4th edition ( or, exaggerated in ). The race choice is simply an indication or symptom of that shift in sensibility/ taste. Giant manga weapons for everyone, of course, was in 3rd's art style too.
Of course, one could always play 4th and not use the races of the "core" setting; which let's be honest, most of us "grognards" always did.
I'd also like to point out that most of the "grognards" are from a period when most gamers had probably suited up in armor and pounded on each other, and were history and monty python buffs. 'Gamer' is a much more broad demographic now.
ALso, may I point out, most people I knew, started with d&d - it was the default - and usually moved on to "better" games - I think that's generally pretty true amongst gamers.
Dragonborn? "Dragonborn were originally introduced in the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 supplement book Races of the Dragon, published by Wizards of the Coast in 2008. " -wikicamazotz said:
Tiefling? From Planescape, arguably the most 'super' setting of TSR.
Eladrin ( yes, high elves to distinguish from Wood Elves - a Tolkien dichotomy of Hobbit and LOTR, I beleiev ) - with their "bamf" are pretty fucking "manga" super IMO.
The Drow as a player race, and hell, unearthed arcana overall, is when I started noticing this trend, myself - of course the monk was in AD&D, and that's straight out of Kung Fu movies - so
Camazotz's point is still valid - at leats at higher levels when D&d got "super" anyway - my personal taste was always to lower level games anyway ( why i preferred Runequest)...
However, having these kinds of "super powers" as first-level pc's is more the gist of what i meant, and it's certainly a "manga"-like sensibility ( head space ) - and I think that is fairly specific to 4th edition ( or, exaggerated in ). The race choice is simply an indication or symptom of that shift in sensibility/ taste. Giant manga weapons for everyone, of course, was in 3rd's art style too.
Of course, one could always play 4th and not use the races of the "core" setting; which let's be honest, most of us "grognards" always did.
I'd also like to point out that most of the "grognards" are from a period when most gamers had probably suited up in armor and pounded on each other, and were history and monty python buffs. 'Gamer' is a much more broad demographic now.
ALso, may I point out, most people I knew, started with d&d - it was the default - and usually moved on to "better" games - I think that's generally pretty true amongst gamers.
I will preface my answer with this: I do watch some anime and play some JRPGs. But when I say I can build things that I never could before, I mean that I am able to better realize them because despite a first glance making the powers seem very similar, I can use them to build the character I really want, almost always without the multiclassing I ended up doing in 3.5.Badger Kyre said:
A good example is a character I build who I wanted to be a mage who could manipulate time and space using arcane magic. Nothing spectacular, but changing things (3.5 had the Truenamer who could do similar things, but that was SPECTACULARLY broken at almost all levels) to benefit himself and his party. How? I was able to use the mechanics of a bard, to the letter, to accomplish this. The flavor was the big thing to it, though. Healing? Reversing time so the wounds were never taken. Damage? Warp the character, but not quite right (Bards have a TON of push/pull/slide powers). And that's just the first example. Pretty much every character I've played has been something I would have to work my ass off in multiclassing to even approximate in 3.5.
I can't remember where the source was (want to say on the Escapist) that the difference between 3.5 and 4e is a difference between high fantasy and low fantasy. That each game, by its nature, attracts certain individuals to play. And I can say without a doubt that I am a high fantasy person when it comes to books or movies or whatnot.
For gawds sake why couldn't Wizards release some software during the 3rd edition phase that made DMing a lot less like doing your taxes?
I want a fiendish half dragon ogre mummy with two warrior class levels so he can wear full plate. It would take an two hours to actually stat that out and be legit under the rules. Or I could just make up the numbers but at that point I might as well just declare the outcome of the encounter "boss monster will kill 2 players" and fudge the dice until that happens.
I want to hit one button and get the loot and encounter breakdown for a level 3 challenge rating dungeon. I want hundreds of dungeon templates so I can pick "abandoned mine" "sewer" "evil temple" "natural cave" "haunted house" and generate rooms, hallways, etc automatically with descriptions and potential encounters.
I want to be able to print out my dungeons room by room so I don't have to describe the map to my players and waste 1/4 of the play time correcting their maps.
Dammit now I'm slightly motivated to try to make this as a web application....
----
My best 3rd edition dnd session...the players level 10ish were after this minotaur wizard to prevent him from becoming a lich. What they didn't know was that his base was a maze of mirrored crystal, and chained on the end of his staff was an enslaved beholder who the minotaur used to shoot eyebeams down the maze corridors.
I want a fiendish half dragon ogre mummy with two warrior class levels so he can wear full plate. It would take an two hours to actually stat that out and be legit under the rules. Or I could just make up the numbers but at that point I might as well just declare the outcome of the encounter "boss monster will kill 2 players" and fudge the dice until that happens.
I want to hit one button and get the loot and encounter breakdown for a level 3 challenge rating dungeon. I want hundreds of dungeon templates so I can pick "abandoned mine" "sewer" "evil temple" "natural cave" "haunted house" and generate rooms, hallways, etc automatically with descriptions and potential encounters.
I want to be able to print out my dungeons room by room so I don't have to describe the map to my players and waste 1/4 of the play time correcting their maps.
Dammit now I'm slightly motivated to try to make this as a web application....
----
My best 3rd edition dnd session...the players level 10ish were after this minotaur wizard to prevent him from becoming a lich. What they didn't know was that his base was a maze of mirrored crystal, and chained on the end of his staff was an enslaved beholder who the minotaur used to shoot eyebeams down the maze corridors.
Interesting read. Long, but interesting. I bought read and gave away the original core 4E books. Just not my game. I still don't have the desire to play 4E, Essentials or original format. I play 3.5 / Pathfinder (still). One thing that popped into my mind while reading this was how much of the D&D experience you shared with Mearls that I didn't have (I've been playing since 1974). The reaction / connection to a "Red Box" edition of D&D isn't there for me. For me, the nostalgia / connection would be with a small wood print box and three little brown books (the white box was later printings). I was deep enough into the game that the whole "basic" D&D thing didn't impact me. I went from original D&D (grudginly) into 1st edition AD&D and on into 2E AD&D, 3E / 3.5 and skipped what was the intro experience for a lot of other older players. It makes me wonder how my view of the game would differ if I had started just a bit later. As I said, interesting interview.
Good luck to Mearl's and crew. 4E isn't my thing but that's not to say it's a bad game -- just a different one from what I play. One downside of being an adult is that I don't have the time to diversify and try / play multiple RPGs. Other than making time for playtesting a new OGL RPG of my favorite setting Can't not do that...
*edit* I was pondering another of your articles on long term campaigns. My time is spread out among a number of hobbies / activities and a job that absorbs 60+ hours a week during the school year. I'd say I have less time for optional / hobby activities than I did pre career / marriage / kids if not less time period... speaking of which, time to get back to grading papers before the sun rises.
Good luck to Mearl's and crew. 4E isn't my thing but that's not to say it's a bad game -- just a different one from what I play. One downside of being an adult is that I don't have the time to diversify and try / play multiple RPGs. Other than making time for playtesting a new OGL RPG of my favorite setting
Can't not do that...*edit* I was pondering another of your articles on long term campaigns. My time is spread out among a number of hobbies / activities and a job that absorbs 60+ hours a week during the school year. I'd say I have less time for optional / hobby activities than I did pre career / marriage / kids if not less time period... speaking of which, time to get back to grading papers before the sun rises.
