151: Dungeons & Dragons Owns the Future

[Ray Huling]

Dungeons & Dragons Owns the Future

"Pong, released in 1972, relied on cutting-edge electronics. Dungeons & Dragons, which appeared two years later, employed technologies that had existed for thousands of years. The odd-shaped dice used to play original D&D - the pyramids, the icosahedrons, the strange gear of so many roleplaying games - are the five Platonic solids. The Greeks had advanced math, writing, drama, myth and lots of leisure time - not to mention an academy at Athens loaded with nerds. So why didn't Plato ever think to deck out a dungeon for his fellows to loot?"

Read Full Article

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

This is really hard to follow: Almost like The Da Vinci Code, all the information is there, but so wrapped up in hyperbole and implication that it makes no real sense.

D&D Against Time
In a few weeks, Hasbro will release the 4th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons, the tabletop roleplaying game that started it all 34 years ago. Because geeks now rule the world, and D&D is the nec plus ultra of geekdom, it pays to give the old game its due. One of the big controversies in the development of new D&D is the extent to which videogames, like World of Warcraft, have influenced its design. The important question about tabletop RPGs and MMOGs is not about influence, but essential difference. What distinguishes the two great acronyms of gaming? Two words: Ancient Greece.

Ok...It's not the 4th, in the same way that GTA IV isn't.
Geeks rule the world? Since when?
D&D is no way the "Nothing Further Beyond", as a lot of RP'ers have long since chucked their d20's in favour of more expressive systems.
Videogames influences D&D, shurely shum mishtake?
RPG's and MMOG's are nowhere near the great acronymns, that would be FPS and RTS. MMO's are actually MMORPG's. (Anyone who doesn't think they're roleplaying is advised to try casting Ice Storm for real)
And how MMOG's or gaming started in Ancient Greece is beyond me...

"So why didn't Plato ever think to deck out a dungeon for his fellows to loot?"
Probably because Zeus etc. were already doing it, with real people, hence Perseus etc.

An interesting article, but factually sloppy. Sorry.

 

[Alex_P]

D&D is no way the "Nothing Further Beyond", as a lot of RP'ers have long since chucked their d20's in favour of more expressive systems.

All that statement means is "D&D is considered one of the geekiest geek hobbies."

(Although the geek hierarchy chart tells us that LARP is geekier.)

-- Alex

 

[TinPeregrinus]

Clever comparison with Athenian tragedy. I think there's a huge, unexplored territory lying just a bit further out, too: Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides composed what they composed, and gave birth not just to drama but also more or less to literature, because writing and reading were just barely coming in as a public thing at the time they were working, and the incredible advances offered by the new technology of writing just blew away the seemingly modest potential of oral composition.

To grasp what I think is the true ancient parallel (cf. http://livingepic.blogspot.com), you need to go back to Homeric epic, with its improvisatory character.

So perhaps it's actually Gary and Dave who finally brought oral tradition back to us!

 

[BobisOnlyBob]

D&D is no way the "Nothing Further Beyond", as a lot of RP'ers have long since chucked their d20's in favour of more expressive systems.

All that statement means is "D&D is considered one of the geekiest geek hobbies."

(Although the geek hierarchy chart tells us that LARP is geekier.)

-- Alex

As a LARPer, I can tell you now that it's entirely a descendant of D&D, and falls into two major categories. "D&D where you stand and act instead of saying what your character does, using rock-paper-scissors or cards instead of dice, or D&D where you use padded weapons and damage calls to simulate combat in real time." In all honesty, it IS geekier, but it's totally inherited, to the point that an outsider could only tell the difference by the costumes and loudness.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

As a LARPer, I can tell you now that it's entirely a descendant of D&D, and falls into two major categories. "D&D where you stand and act instead of saying what your character does, using rock-paper-scissors or cards instead of dice, or D&D where you use padded weapons and damage calls to simulate combat in real time." In all honesty, it IS geekier, but it's totally inherited, to the point that an outsider could only tell the difference by the costumes and loudness.

Also as a LARPer, I have to say that's a little generalisation (There are Freeformers, Sealed Knot etc. as well), but I'd disagree that it's a descendant, more of one of the rowdy children in the marriage between Theatre and D&D.
I'd also call into question the Geek chart, which "How to Bite the Head Off a Chicken" tends to deal with more succinctly.

 

[crimped]

I still have all the books from the very begining. It was a great game to past the long winter evenings before consoles were affordable. a group of freinds,some beer,and pizza. yes, I am old lol

 

[locworks]

A recent and great example of chaos and a collaborative spirit can be found on the Paizo messageboards where hundreds of gamers playtest and tweak the Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 rules to help Jason Bulmahn and his team produce Pathfinder, an updated and streamlined Dungeons and Dragons for those who don't fancy switching to 4th Edition.

I'm thoroughly enjoying the open design process and I hope that more companies will follow Paizo's lead.

 

[antipaganda]

You know what this means, don't you? It means that if any of us go back in time, we can invent roleplaying! Much better than trying to build a steam engine, since dice don't explode! (Except in Shadowrun, L5R and 7th Sea of course.) No tech required beyond basic numerals and paper! You could make lots of money, and lots of friends.

Yep, I know what to do now if I'm transported back to Shakespearean England. This, and die of cholera.

 

[p1ne]

Great article, very perceptive and maybe one of the most original concepts I have read on this website. A parallel that comes to mind for me is the emergence of "team humor" that you see sometimes these days on internet forums - where a series of different people will collaborate in a thread to create something funny as a group that is more than just the sum of their individual contributions.

 

[Erik Robson]

It's an entirely worthwhile question -- why didn't collaborative interactive fiction ("role-playing games") appear anywhere in documented human history until 1974 A.D.?

I'm not satisfied with how the essay answers the question, but I doubt it can be covered in four pages. The topic seems bookworthy, and I'd encourage Ray Huling to follow through and drill deeper into the subject.

 

[sammyfreak]

The question itself is interesting, but the article fails to awnser anything about it.

 

[TinPeregrinus]

I think it did--but it was confined to children until there were enough adults with enough leisure time to devote to it. Moreover, I think there are many, many ancient precedents for the genre, especially in cult ritual.

 

[TinPeregrinus]

Hmm. Do you happen to have an ancient Greek text or two to back that up? Because I've read pretty much all of them, and none of them says that. In ancient Greek literature, the gods embody human phenomena like war and marriage; even when, in a text like the Iliad, it seems like the gods are controlling the action, they're actually there to represent purely human motivations. When Athena stops Achilles from killing Agamemnon in Book 1, it's simply a very, yes, epic way to say that he had at least enough wisdom to restrain himself.

On the other hand, I think there's a really important analogy to be made between RPG's and the actual human epic tradition of the bards who sang the Iliad into existence.

 

[ccesarano]

Videogames influences D&D, shurely shum mishtake?

Have you read the fourth edition books? Reading descriptions of the world setting is like mapping out the setting for World of Warcraft. "Dwarves are from here, Elves are from here, Orcs come from here, humans are here...", as opposed to a truly inter-mingling system.

I would've rather seen an article that focuses on how D&D has been changing. At the start, there were a TON of different literary contributions to shape D&D, though Tolkien is the most obvious. Robert E. Howard also had a pretty major influence, particularly since the Barbarian in D&D was pretty much Conan. It is, however, interesting that literature had an influence on the creation, but not on the play style. The game was essentially a dungeon crawler, but it was the players that began making in-depth characters and stories. Hence why 2nd edition is so full of source books for different settings of amazing depth and detail.

Of course, back then, geeks and nerds read a lot more, and a lot of the geek favorites weren't pulpy Warcraft, Buffy or Halo novels. They were real genuine works that tried to convey true meaning and depth. The noir magazine writings of H.P.Lovecraft and others also contributed. Basically, people were well-read, and it transferred.

Now, however, the gamers are changing. Instead of growing up reading Lovecraft, Conan and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, people are growing up playing Diablo, and now they try and emulate that experience grabbing and looting. It's honestly a real shame, because the wrong games are influencing modern D&D players. Games like Myst, or even Resident Evil and Final Fantasy Tactics, would be fantastic influences to the realm of D&D, but unfortunately people just want to take what they learned from Everquest and WoW and apply it to pen and paper.

And now, 4th Edition is primarily catering to those people.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

And now, 4th Edition is primarily catering to those people.

But 1st ed created those people, and it was the Everquest/Diablo supplements that first introduced that idea...way back in 3rd ed. The whole hitpoints/mana thing was there on the first Basic edition box set.

'Dwarves are from here' started way back with Tolkein, before computers were anything more than lab tools.

 

[Eyclonus]

Now, however, the gamers are changing. Instead of growing up reading Lovecraft, Conan and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, people are growing up playing Diablo, and now they try and emulate that experience grabbing and looting. It's honestly a real shame, because the wrong games are influencing modern D&D players. Games like Myst, or even Resident Evil and Final Fantasy Tactics, would be fantastic influences to the realm of D&D, but unfortunately people just want to take what they learned from Everquest and WoW and apply it to pen and paper.

And now, 4th Edition is primarily catering to those people.

I've only been playing D&D since 2006, I started earlier with Hero Quest, but I think its obvious to anybody who plays both video game RPGs and their progenitors, that players usually divide into two camps, those who want to live the narrative, and those who want to live the action. People are influenced by popular culture, D&D was popular because Tolkein gained popularity in the 60s and into the 70s.
People growing up with Diablo will want to play like Diablo, some may find it lacking and they might move into a playstyle more influenced by High Fantasy than Stat-crunching RPGs.

Saying something like "It's honestly a real shame, because the wrong games are influencing modern D&D players." is just the geriatric gripe of "Everything was better in my day" the players of today aren't like the players of the 80s, for one thing they dress better, but also they may want more action, if pointless violence gives it to them hooray, they're having fun.

Fun being the goal that people seek when playing these games. Sure you can blab on about how its making it less Role playing and more Roll playing but I prefer to ignore pricks like you and go back to the simple adventure of just butchering every damn paladin and Orc who stands between me and the staircase to the next floor.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Primary Rule of D&D : All Rules are optional.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

Autotranslation engaged:

Gol-darned kids, get off my lawn!

I started playing D&D 26 years ago (give or take a year) and even I'm not nostalgic enough to forget all the gaming we ripped off from Indiana Jones, Mad Max, Conan flicks, and Hammer films. Heck, if I remember correctly one adventure even ripped off Gauntlet. I know I disguised a Pac Man reference well enough that no one caught it...

It's the same as it ever was, really.

-- Steve