Morality Matters, Part 2
Our panel delves even deeper into the topic of good and evil.
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Our panel delves even deeper into the topic of good and evil.
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Morality Matters, Part 2
- Thread starter Extra Consideration
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I'm a bit disappointed by this. Not because the content is lacking or anything (I love Extra Consideration, keep up ze good work, etc and so forth), just because there are only two pages and not really a long discussion. I do agree with Yahtzee though, there should be a distinction between learned behavior and actual moral judgment. I'm not evil because I rummage through the belongings of peasants, I was merely taught to do so by every other bloody game 
This is interesting ...
On the subject of Ezio and those minstrels, sure Ezio didn't kill civilians, but that doesn't stop me.
Being able to kill 3 civs before desynching is a resource to manage just like any other ... ...
A poisoned minstrel can be a very useful distraction.
Also, what's to stop me from just being a jerk?
A quick tap of high profile will bump the minstrel and make him drop his lute, which I find hilarious.
Pickpocketing beggars is also very funny.
However, Ezio's actions are also within the context of a computer simulation.
Desmond knows those minstrels aren't real, and if he runs off and comes back, new ones will spawn.
So the parallel is there for us video game players.
Is Desmond being immoral if he makes Ezio stab a minstrel, whom he knows isn't a real person (as evidenced by treating minstrels well or not having no impact on total synchronisation)?
On the subject of Ezio and those minstrels, sure Ezio didn't kill civilians, but that doesn't stop me.
Being able to kill 3 civs before desynching is a resource to manage just like any other ... ...
A poisoned minstrel can be a very useful distraction.
Also, what's to stop me from just being a jerk?
A quick tap of high profile will bump the minstrel and make him drop his lute, which I find hilarious.
Pickpocketing beggars is also very funny.
However, Ezio's actions are also within the context of a computer simulation.
Desmond knows those minstrels aren't real, and if he runs off and comes back, new ones will spawn.
So the parallel is there for us video game players.
Is Desmond being immoral if he makes Ezio stab a minstrel, whom he knows isn't a real person (as evidenced by treating minstrels well or not having no impact on total synchronisation)?
My only thought on the matter:
The only real issue about moral systems is that most assume evils and goods are the same in all of our eyes. I know quite a few people who think approaching innocents and slaughtering them in public is perfectly reasonable in many circumstances. Whether I agree is irrelevant. If I made a game in which such actions are labeled "evil," it wouldn't line up with my point of view.
Further, the (hypothetical) goal of a moral system would be to create some sort of difference in the game. If the only change for being "evil" instead of "good" is that no one in the game likes you, nothing is really changing.
One thing I liked about Fallout was reputation. It didn't tell you whether you were "good" or "bad," but whether people thought you were "good" or "bad." This is about one's individual response to a player. Big, general descriptions of "good" and "evil" that automatically effect every damned corner of the earth assume we all play by the same rules.
In summary, I like systems of reasonable consequences and per-ncp/per-community reputation. But whether you are being "good" or "bad" shouldn't be what the game tells you. It should be what the player feels for himself. If your "moral" system isn't making the player think about what he's doing and why, all by himself, without holding his hand or trying to sway him one way or another, it's not doing it's (theoretical) job.
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The only real issue about moral systems is that most assume evils and goods are the same in all of our eyes. I know quite a few people who think approaching innocents and slaughtering them in public is perfectly reasonable in many circumstances. Whether I agree is irrelevant. If I made a game in which such actions are labeled "evil," it wouldn't line up with my point of view.
Further, the (hypothetical) goal of a moral system would be to create some sort of difference in the game. If the only change for being "evil" instead of "good" is that no one in the game likes you, nothing is really changing.
One thing I liked about Fallout was reputation. It didn't tell you whether you were "good" or "bad," but whether people thought you were "good" or "bad." This is about one's individual response to a player. Big, general descriptions of "good" and "evil" that automatically effect every damned corner of the earth assume we all play by the same rules.
In summary, I like systems of reasonable consequences and per-ncp/per-community reputation. But whether you are being "good" or "bad" shouldn't be what the game tells you. It should be what the player feels for himself. If your "moral" system isn't making the player think about what he's doing and why, all by himself, without holding his hand or trying to sway him one way or another, it's not doing it's (theoretical) job.
END OF LINE
To me epic mickey left you with highlighted good and bad choices, really if you will do the choice that gives more which is a balances between exploring and hunting as well as being good and bad.
But if you want a hard moral choice play backyard football: rookie rush
Its a deep story. It makes you feel for both sides but your forced to choose the socialy accepted group, instead of the lone kid who had to make short term freindships and accepting that he will never see them again after a year or so, and because of that he hides under ingnorant gloats to secretly keep people away so that he may never grow attached to them. His only companion is football in which he work himself to an obsession. Now you are tasked to destroy his dreams for your own selfish desires. You are a group of freinds who were there for da best and the worst. You even got your old rival helping you out since you burried the hatchet. But this kid is different. If You fall u have a net to catch your self, he doesn't, and he has all eyes on him. This isn't the unstoppable force meets the unmovable object. It's the unstoppable force vs the unstoppable force. These kids are the same person different conditions.
So you gonna win or loose the big game you've been working for?
But if you want a hard moral choice play backyard football: rookie rush
Its a deep story. It makes you feel for both sides but your forced to choose the socialy accepted group, instead of the lone kid who had to make short term freindships and accepting that he will never see them again after a year or so, and because of that he hides under ingnorant gloats to secretly keep people away so that he may never grow attached to them. His only companion is football in which he work himself to an obsession. Now you are tasked to destroy his dreams for your own selfish desires. You are a group of freinds who were there for da best and the worst. You even got your old rival helping you out since you burried the hatchet. But this kid is different. If You fall u have a net to catch your self, he doesn't, and he has all eyes on him. This isn't the unstoppable force meets the unmovable object. It's the unstoppable force vs the unstoppable force. These kids are the same person different conditions.
So you gonna win or loose the big game you've been working for?
I can only agree with Yahtzee about inFamous doing morality obnoxiously. I've ranted about how I feel that game poorly handled choices and morality so many times though that I don't want to do it again right now.
But yeah, I like this discussion of how to base morality in the game. You know, like how Silent Hill did it and then how Assassin's Creed or GTA IV did it, and so on. I wish there was more of that.
Also, what are you doing James? You hiding out by the craft services table eating all the cookies while the other guys chat?
But yeah, I like this discussion of how to base morality in the game. You know, like how Silent Hill did it and then how Assassin's Creed or GTA IV did it, and so on. I wish there was more of that.
Also, what are you doing James? You hiding out by the craft services table eating all the cookies while the other guys chat?
Does being glad he wasn't present count? I'm still not to keen on him after the last time he was there when he acted like I was some sort of self-centered scumbag because I thought tutorials should be skippable (not non-existent, but skippable so those who need them can have them and those who don't can just get to playing). I like being able to read these without having insults that don't even make any damn sense being sent my way.slipbreed said:
I think the purpose morality meters really serve in games is not to attempt to offer up choice (there are plenty of games that give you choices without the meter) but to serve as a choice
*aggregator*. It can be really harsh when ONE THING that you do halfway through the game completely changes the outcome of said game. It can be interesting, for sure, and some games do this with great success. But some people don't like it when the game suddenly changes drastically because of one choice they made. It can also make little sense when you have, say, been fantastically good throughout the game but you do one bad thing and the authorities come down on you like a ton of bricks.
I think it's just a different approach to say "morality status A leads to consequence B" rather than "dialog choice A leads to consequence B" or "action A leads to consequence B". Having the morality aggregation system can lead to more depth. Or it can lead to ridiculously stupid levels of oversimplification. But both methods are choice/consequence oriented.
*aggregator*. It can be really harsh when ONE THING that you do halfway through the game completely changes the outcome of said game. It can be interesting, for sure, and some games do this with great success. But some people don't like it when the game suddenly changes drastically because of one choice they made. It can also make little sense when you have, say, been fantastically good throughout the game but you do one bad thing and the authorities come down on you like a ton of bricks.
I think it's just a different approach to say "morality status A leads to consequence B" rather than "dialog choice A leads to consequence B" or "action A leads to consequence B". Having the morality aggregation system can lead to more depth. Or it can lead to ridiculously stupid levels of oversimplification. But both methods are choice/consequence oriented.
I'm sure it takes a lot of effort to get contributors together, and to have a decent feed going on between them, but I still wish that this could be longer. Two pages (and especially these two pages) is wayyy too short. Especially when the contributors give all these interesting opinions and the dialogue is open and engaging (and funny at times!). It's always such a bummer to look in the corner and see only two pages when I know, as a reader, I'd want to read at least 3 or 4. Even if it means that this column has to be bi-weekly (which it was between this column and the last), that would be better than getting just so-so pieces.
"There aren't two sides to morality" --
I'm not sure how to interpret that. Is that a conservative statement? Unlikely it would seem from extra punctuation's videos. Perhaps then saying that morality is open to interpretation? I prefer that, but again I could be wrong.
When you get different cultures and one thinks cannibalism is sacred, or GW says God wants the US to win it becomes apparent to me that there is at least a bit of variation for 'good'.
I'm not sure how to interpret that. Is that a conservative statement? Unlikely it would seem from extra punctuation's videos. Perhaps then saying that morality is open to interpretation? I prefer that, but again I could be wrong.
When you get different cultures and one thinks cannibalism is sacred, or GW says God wants the US to win it becomes apparent to me that there is at least a bit of variation for 'good'.
As usual, James sounds the most intelligent
He's a good man to have on Extra Consideration. I feel like he keeps people thinking and honest. Would hate to read one without him there.
He's a good man to have on Extra Consideration. I feel like he keeps people thinking and honest. Would hate to read one without him there.
He's pretty much referring to how real life isn't 2 sides of morality either, at least not unless you apply Black and white logic to anything and that's a quick way to being... eccentric. Basically, the moral system shouldn't be centred on you being Jesus or Satan, since we can be goodish guys that have our dick moments or assholes that get a soft moment once in a while or something even more gray.RobfromtheGulag said:
Problem with morality is that it doesn't really exist in nature so to speak. Humans decide what is moral and what isn't. Anything you do in a game will be amoral, because after all it is a game, an imaginary world. When you start adding it into a game for a better role playing experience, you better make sure you create a completely realistic system and let the player know that the game will (try to) react the same way people do in the real world. Otherwise you are creating something similar to morality, but not true mortality as we all know it.
Rewarding players for bad actions and even sometimes for good actions will not accurately depict what happens in the real world and that is when the morality system breaks down. Why developers try simulate real life rather than just creating a great game is beyond me.
Wiki quote and generally accepted definition of a 'game':
"A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for ENJOYMENT..."
This is probably why they reward you for being so evil, but that is not real morality, is it?
Rewarding players for bad actions and even sometimes for good actions will not accurately depict what happens in the real world and that is when the morality system breaks down. Why developers try simulate real life rather than just creating a great game is beyond me.
Wiki quote and generally accepted definition of a 'game':
"A game is structured playing, usually undertaken for ENJOYMENT..."
This is probably why they reward you for being so evil, but that is not real morality, is it?
Once again in agreement. If I could throw in my opinion on the matter. I disagree with giving moral choice in video games as the options are rarely representative of all the available options and both options are usually clearly good or clearly bad. Although an interactive medium you would have a hard time trying to argue that the player becomes an ethical agent (philosophy geek)through the players actions.Tulks said:
I do however think this is the best medium to portray moral ambiguities and decisions. I believe that a player should be forced to make all immoral actions and have them uniquely singled out. Although they can't explicitly be told they are immoral and the action some be as graphic as possible maybe with subtle changes to the button input etc. Another technique that could be used (done brilliantly in games like metal gear solid) is to make parallels on the ingame actions into real world events. I first learned about the hiroshima bomb through metal gear solid (probs too young to have played the game then shhh...) and learning about the reality of a subject like that made it feel like the civilians in game that would die were real people and this made octacons decisions all the more powerful.
If choice is involved though you should make the game far more immersive through the mechanics. For example oddworld abes exodus if you where resucing gold stars instead of mudokons there would be less incentive the go through the trouble (and i mean trouble its a hard game) of saving them. Although primitive to give them different pitched voices gave them a personality and you felt all the worse for dropping a grenade on them. However consider this how would you feel at the end of a game like that saving creatures if they died regardless that although you did the morally correct thing but they all died (or even worse if you only rescued a few they could escape but too many the guards would notice and slaughter the rest) Games shouldn't reward piety and in fact punishing it might make the point more explicit and stricking.
TOTAL RAMBLE BADLY STRUCTURED I KNOW SOZ.....
I agree. This does feel rather lacking in its brevity and content. IT seems like all they did was just agree on a point and end it. Plus, it's been near two weeks since the last one and this is all that was discussed? I know they are busy people, but this still begs me to ask, the fuck?thethingthatlurks said:I'm a bit disappointed by this. Not because the content is lacking or anything (I love Extra Consideration, keep up ze good work, etc and so forth), just because there are only two pages and not really a long discussion. I do agree with Yahtzee though, there should be a distinction between learned behavior and actual moral judgment. I'm not evil because I rummage through the belongings of peasants, I was merely taught to do so by every other bloody game
OT: Um... agree with Yahtzee since he's really the only one who makes a point.
I feel they should also be discussing possible ways to implement their various points of view into actual gameplay. It's an interesting read for sure, but it really does sort of feel like a bunch of old men chortling over biscuits rather than ways to actually improve the medium of gaming. Definitely from the actual game designers.
Slightly Off-Topic: This particular topic is so rich for debate that it's more than a little disappointing how little debate there has been. It's as though you guys are afraid to really dig in on this. Most of the discussion has been shortly-explained examples from games you've liked... but really not enough digging into what made them work. Also not enough digging into what makes others not work.Extra Consideration said:
On-Topic:
Of all the comments in this discussion, I'm with Mr. Portnow. I get what Mr. Neumann was saying--that there can't be one golden path and then one (or several) less-fun paths--but his comment betrays the underlying polarization that plagues moral-choice systems.
As Neumann mentioned in the previous discussion, a developer has to consider what branching choices will do to resources and development time. That often means very "bottom line" thinking, and the bottom line is that all "choice" requires is two options. So that's usually all you get. (Though sometimes they throw in a meaningless "neutral" status, that basically just means you're missing out on the big rewards at both ends of the spectrum)
Morality is not a one-dimensional spectrum having only two extremes. In fact, creating a compelling moral choice system has nothing to do with extremes. That's not where the meaningful conflict takes place. The player should feel pulled in multiple directions, and the choice should sting a bit.
If the game is built on extremes, the only choice that matters is the first. That's when the player decides whether this will be a "good run," an "evil run," or maybe a "neutral run." Every choice after that is already made.
To really make a robust morality system, there are two angles to consider:
1. The character's methods: In general, this is the easiest to judge. Stealing is an evil act. Healing is a good act. Blah blah, boring boring. That's where many systems stop. Some will go a bit further and say that killing a bad guy is a good act, which shallows out the moral system quite a bit by ensuring everything stays between the two rigidly-fixed extremes of "universal good" and "universal evil."
2. The character's goals/allegiance: This is where the real meat of morality can be found. "Does the end justify the means?" is the classic moral dilemma. The best thing about that question is that the answer is different depending on who's watching. The majority may say, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," but do we think the 'few' take kindly to being outweighed? If I steal to feed my starving children, I'm a hero to them... but I'm a villain to the children of the man from whom I stole. And both are simultaneously true.