- Jun 17, 2010
He might not try breaking down my door and forcing me to convert, but his pep rally here on this plane of existence... well I wouldn't put that past them, THAT's who I'm worried about. Your inference that I "don't want to be accountable to him" is only accurate in that I don't particularly feel some of the things he supposedly wants are fair, now whether that's actually what he wants and thus he's evil, or whether it's what the aforementioned pep rally are after and thus they're completely screwing up what he actually wants amounts to the same thing in the end from my perspective.TruthInGaming said:Whoa, whoa easy there bud. If you were putting up intentional hyperbole I think it's understandable if I misunderstood it.leviadragon99 said:Yeahno, my entire point was that the text does not stand up by itself and even the most cursory explanation reveals massive contradictions and inconsistencies, but apparently you decided to get more mileage out of missing the point of my intentional hyperbole.TruthInGaming said:You don't need to know a lot about something to disagree with it for all that statement says.leviadragon99 said:I know enough of the bible to disagree with it.TruthInGaming said:Um, the message of Christ seems to be pretty clear that man is in need of a savior to be made right with God due to his own nature of sin and that he should resist this nature focusing instead to treat others as man would like to be treated and show them freely the love of God which God has shown to them. Which included Christ allowing them to maliciously crucify him in order to benevolently save them. - Honestly did you even bother to read the accounts of the gospel before spewing your opinions?
The notion that we aren't capable of saving ourselves and need a perfect ubermensch to human-sacrifice to his father because "Something, something Sin, sin, sin, reasons" strikes me as sufficiently fascist in the dumping of a guilt/debt complex upon people to question the hell out of it.
Yes I am intentionally misrepresenting what you claim the point of it all is, but I'm doing so to prove a point, how easy it is to skew those events by a different perspective and different phrasing, not that the bible really needed your help to come across as one long incomprehensible rant, but you really did the text no favours with your "explanation"
Capable of saving yourself? You have some kind of eternal life potion in your pocket you wish to share with the rest of us? If you stand before an almighty God who created the universe and watched men screw it up then came himself in the form of his own son to die to fix it at the hands of the very lynch mob he was dying to save and you are asked to give an account of your wrong doing in life and why he should allow you into his heaven how can you respond? I don't think it's fascist to tell people they are doing something evil and they need be repentant. Christ offered people freedom from the guilt and slavery of their own behavior. That's the good part to the good news of the good gospel. God encourages you to ask questions. He discourages you from hurting other people and yourself. God isn't helped by your service and he doesn't need you to accept his salvation freely offered to you. He wants you to because its good for you. If you are drowning it doesn't hurt me at all if you choose not to climb onto the life boat. I want you to get in the life boat because its going to save your life.
I am at least glad to see you are honest about your dishonest but I'd rather you were just honest. It would be pretty hard and I would argue the modern church has worked almost round the clock to achieve it but then I would be speaking of organized religion not the life and example of Jesus Christ or the works surrounding his life. If you don't comprehend something maybe you should spend some time studying it or seeking clarification from a reputable expert instead of making some generally unfounded and non sequitur points that you yourself admit as misrepresenting. I am not trying to do the text "favors" by explaining it. My whole point was the text can stand on it's own and the point is fairly obvious to those who bother to read and study it.
As to "saving ourselves" I referred to acting in a moral fashion without needing the coda of a supposedly gay-hating, demanding-subservience-of-women, insecure-to-the-point-of-intolerance-of-any-other-belief, evil deity, one that I do not believe even exists, thus the question of eternal life or needing to explain ourselves to this force becomes rather moot, and indeed if he did exist and is everything mainstream religion says he is, I would gladly lead the armies of hell against him, because THAT is how bad his PR department is right now.
The only thing modern religion as an institution has worked pretty hard to do is to keep women out of the clergy and prevent gay marriage, yeah that's really spreading the good word. The charitable efforts that they are involved in strike me increasingly as the actions of pockets of good people trying to make the best of a hopelessly morally bankrupt institution they're too scared to leave, good that they do despite their religion, not because of it.
Your allegories about god and his life boat lose a little lustre when god allegedly demands we blind, deafen and mute ourselves in order to be allowed into the boat. So while it may not be fascist to point out people are screwing up, it is definitely fascist to DEMAND they follow your every whim or else die in a fire.
At the end of the day, if you feel like god is a thing worth believing, an entity worth following, then you do that, you can call bullshit on all the horrible things that organised religion believes are true to him and view him as an actually nice guy... but don't expect everyone else to accept that distinction and fall neatly into line when organised religion demands we march in lockstep, because for many of us, what god actually wants is irrelevant, because the church is what we actually have to deal with in the real world.
The only hate vibes I'm picking up here are not coming from the Christian God. You are throwing around a lot of accusations and you might want to back it up there a second to evaluate your own prejudice and bias coming into this and just question where all this is coming from before you go slinging and swinging. If you don't believe he exists then go live your life. He'll knock at the door and you can feel free to ignore him. He won't break in and force himself upon you but he also won't force you to live in his paradise either. If the other choice is hell then that's your choice. I do have to say though from reading you post I am given the inference that you choice not to believe in God sounds like its due to a desire not to be accountable to him.
So you want to save yourself in a your moral fashion while leading the armies of hell again God... because he has a bad PR department... OK. Yes apart from sanitation, education, wine, public order, irrigation,fresh water systems and public health... sure the church doesn't do much but besides all that the whole mission of inspiring others to follow and accept the teachings of Christ cause that's certainly bad right? On the gay issue how dare they insist that people who want to be leader in their religion actually follow and believe the things the religion espouses? How dare they! We should force them to do as we believe and we think right? Oh wait... I do believe there are a number of women clergy but traditionally yes I would agree that's not really a female role in the same way that a man isn't really a traditional role at playing wife to another man... at least their consistent no? Well your impression of charitable organizations and utterly fabricated motives for what other people do despite their actions indicating the exact opposite not withstanding I'd encouraged you to direct your rage to your nearest representative because this does seem to be the way that the government openly operates and you might find your efforts in that field only slightly more effective though slightly less appreciated.
I've never had God demand me to be blind, deaf or mute. Must have missed that verse. I don't see God asking me to follow his every whim he basically just gives me instruction on things that will hurt me or others and then advises me not to do them. He also tells me that even if I do them that he will forgive me if am sorry for hurting other people or myself which seems like a pretty straightforward and moral thing to do to me. However if someone was to hurt other people or themselves maliciously fully aware that they had been warned ahead of time not to do it then be unapologetic for their actions and the pain and suffering they had caused I can't very well think of a person more deserving to die in fire as you put it.
Well at the end of the day I do believe in that God. I am not aware of all the terrible things that my organized form pf religion has done and I don't accept responsibility for the terrible things that other religions have done nor do I think they should in any way reflect on my religion. I don't remember making demands that you march in lockstep or honestly making any demands of you at all. I would describe your comment as angry perhaps even hostile and I really don't see much reason for it. If the Christian body of believers has harmed you in some way that you find debilitating or difficult to overcome perhaps you should take it up with the courts if on the other hand this is some kind of pseudo outrage wannabe rebel of an over privileged atheist hipster please don't let me stop you in your search for someone who cares about your "struggles."
All that being said I wish a very good day to you. I wish you no harm and submit to you only what you are willing to accept on the basis of reason and truth. I am more then happy to share the message of Christ with you or anyone else who is willing to listen and I am not willing to give up that mission or be silence by any threat or force others may posses.
Yes, if god is evil then leading the armies of hell against him is the only moral course of action, you seem to have overlooked the qualifying statement that I would do that ONLY IF certain things he supposedly wants are what he actually wants, do try to pay attention. I also question the hell out of you ascribing all those technological innovations specifically and exclusively to god/Judaeo-Christian faith, indeed I'm pretty sure that a lot of those predate any belief in Jehovah or Yahweh. Your skirting over and apologising for mainstream religion's sexism and homophobia does you no credit. For example, if atheist people are allowed to get married, without observing the traditions of Christian marriage nor acknowledging the existence or authority of god over them, then gay people should be able to get married as well, that's where the issue begins and ends or me, marriage is no longer exclusively a church institution and you need to accept that.
And yes, I am perfectly aware of government corruption, in other news, water is wet, I also criticise the hell out of shady government behaviour, I can point out complete bullshit in more than one place at a time you know.
Okay... are you a biblical literalist or do you really have that much trouble identifying allegory? I did not LITERALLY mean blind, deaf and dumb, I was using that to allude to the level of unquestioning obedience that religion certainly seems to require most of the time. I thought it was obvious given that I was using it in conjunction with your boat metaphor but apparently not, and if you were actually aware of my true meaning, then faux-ignorance just wastes my time and yours for no payoff. I'm also curious whether you actually believe god gives you instructions directly... do you hear a voice in your head or just feel a vague feeling? Because one could be psychosis and the other could be common sense. I wouldn't mind if these things god apparently says are all good advice, but if he's telling you not to do things that would harm no-one and then getting peeved if you did them anyway, THAT's what I take issue with, the aforementioned treatment of women and gays for example.
"privileged hipster atheist" Yeah, just keep on projecting and victim-complex-ing. I'm sure that you yourself have never done anything to me, you're probably a good person... but you seem unwilling or unable to comprehend that the people you're involved in (perhaps only tangentially) could do harm... just a question, are you catholic or protestant? Because if the former, there is one notable example of recent harm your religion has caused, and if the latter... well how lose a coalition of churches is Protestantism? Because some factions, particularly the American ones have rather nasty baggage, lobbying to have their own biases protected by law and forced onto members of the population that don't actually share their belief "*cough*reporductiverights*cough*" That's what I mean with "forcing to march in lockstep" If you have a particular belief on condoms and birth control pills? Fine, you follow it yourself, but don't demand nonbelievers adhere to that, the separation of church and state happened for a reason.
I have presented no threat of force, do not act as if I am a roman trying to throw you to the lions, I may have been aggressive in my responses here, but you are uniquely infuriating in your blinkered perceptions and holier-than-thou perspective, I suppose the Inquisition and the Crusades never happened in your world eh?