8-Bit Philosophy: Is Capitalism Bad For You?

mjharper

Can
Apr 28, 2013
172
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Fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. More of this, please! I loved the narrator, who sounds like he's channelling the voice of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy'.

EDIT: Subscribed on YouTube, too.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
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I really want a lot more of videos like this. Great stuff even despite the huge flaw in the discussion expressed below:

Ugh... completely wrong on Calvinism. Their basic philosophy follows the acronym of TULIP in which Unconditional Election (that you are elected for salvation without any merits of your own) and Preseverance of the Saints (that God will preserve the salvation of the saints such that they cannot or will not fall from grace) are two central points. Perhaps you can understand why a belief system centered around people having no say for or against salvation would be ridiculous to be defined as something supporting working really hard to ensure salvation.

I'm not Calvinist but I specialized in soteriology for years including multiple works on the topic. Saying that Calvinists work extra hard to ensure their salvation is extremely ignorant of their core belief system.

In fact, regarding protestantism in general, one of the primary breaks from the Catholic Church was belief in salvation by faith alone and not by works. The Baptist churches frequently believe in things like Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS for shorthand in theological discussions) for example in which a person who has converted to Christianity is always saved and cannot lose that salvation.

So... you'd maybe need to drop back to Catholicism if you wanted to go the "works" route. It's unfortunate that Weber got it completely factually wrong.

The work ethic in the US can be much more easily attributed to social mobility or the notion that if we work really hard we can advance in society. It is also consumer based in that we need newer and better things non-stop.

But religion based? Not anywhere I've seen. In fact, Marxism is far more closely tied to predestination that capitalism is. The notion that your work and wage is predetermined is a dead ringer for that.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
3,829
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Fascinating series... I'm glad to see something new anyway.

The nature of what is being covered is a bit beyond me, but that's fine. (I don't have the historical background to comment directly on the topic presented)

I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
Not for the individual that takes it to heart, but rather, society as a whole.
What do you do when you define people's worth through their work, when the majority won't be able to find anything to do?
 

Captain Capra

New member
Jan 6, 2014
5
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If you like this you maybe wanna check out the Wisecrack Youtube Channel. They do loads of intresting stuff, including this.
 

Sylocat

Sci-Fi & Shakespeare
Nov 13, 2007
2,122
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8-Bit Philosophy, on The Escapist? It's not even my birthday!
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
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CrystalShadow said:
I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
I've considered this quite a bit lately. The notion that automation should eventually put people out of work. Ideally, this would mean a future where people don't have to work but are free to direct their attention to whatever pursuits they desire. But there's a lot of things in-between that could wreck us.

I imagine that the government will eventually have to legislate a certain ratio of human works be maintained for companies. That could side step the issue of massive layoffs with fewer consumers to buy things (because, again, layoffs).

We'll have to see how that turns out. What's sad is that robots will inevitably out-pace us eventually. There will be a day when there's nothing we can do that they can't do better. Everything from innovation to humor.
 

She-Pudding

Grand Poo-Bah of Tittles
Apr 29, 2014
21
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Interesting topic, and charming from its narrtor to its graphics. ^u^

I love a good e-series that teaches me something new, or has a novel voice to get me thinking... especially while lvl grinding or playing minecraft. I suppose this is just one more vid to keep an eye on!
 

Sylocat

Sci-Fi & Shakespeare
Nov 13, 2007
2,122
0
0
CrystalShadow said:
Fascinating series... I'm glad to see something new anyway.

The nature of what is being covered is a bit beyond me, but that's fine. (I don't have the historical background to comment directly on the topic presented)

I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
Not for the individual that takes it to heart, but rather, society as a whole.
What do you do when you define people's worth through their work, when the majority won't be able to find anything to do?
She-Pudding said:
Interesting topic, and charming from its narrtor to its graphics. ^u^

I love a good e-series that teaches me something new, or has a novel voice to get me thinking... especially while lvl grinding or playing minecraft. I suppose this is just one more vid to keep an eye on!
If you're curious about the topic, you can do further (if less humorously-illustrated) reading here [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/04/the-politics-of-getting-a-life/] and here [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/the-right-to-be-playful/].
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
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Lightknight said:
CrystalShadow said:
I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
I've considered this quite a bit lately. The notion that automation should eventually put people out of work. Ideally, this would mean a future where people don't have to work but are free to direct their attention to whatever pursuits they desire. But there's a lot of things in-between that could wreck us.

I imagine that the government will eventually have to legislate a certain ratio of human works be maintained for companies. That could side step the issue of massive layoffs with fewer consumers to buy things (because, again, layoffs).

We'll have to see how that turns out. What's sad is that robots will inevitably out-pace us eventually. There will be a day when there's nothing we can do that they can't do better. Everything from innovation to humor.
I don't see this eventuality as sad though. Freeing up human time spent on labors of love rather than necessity would be rather grand. I do think we'd need some shift in core values to avoid the pitfalls of being hedonistic consumers and pleasure-seeking machines, but not having to work for basic necessities could drive an artistic revolution. I don't know that we can say robots would ever be better at art since such valuation would be, in whole or large part, subjective.

Even if robots may eventually innovate better robots than we can, or at a faster pace than we do, I still think there would be plenty of worthwhile human endeavors that would rival anything a robot, no matter how sophisticated, could produce. Art and sport spring to mind.
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
3,829
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Lightknight said:
CrystalShadow said:
I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
I've considered this quite a bit lately. The notion that automation should eventually put people out of work. Ideally, this would mean a future where people don't have to work but are free to direct their attention to whatever pursuits they desire. But there's a lot of things in-between that could wreck us.

I imagine that the government will eventually have to legislate a certain ratio of human works be maintained for companies. That could side step the issue of massive layoffs with fewer consumers to buy things (because, again, layoffs).

We'll have to see how that turns out. What's sad is that robots will inevitably out-pace us eventually. There will be a day when there's nothing we can do that they can't do better. Everything from innovation to humor.
That's one solution. But an especially awkward one assuming the work would normally be done by machines for the sake of efficiency.

I would imagine a more viable solution longterm would be to remove all work related taxes, (primarily income tax), and try to ensure the remaining taxes can be distributed to the population.

Unfortunately, with current trends I rather fear the handful of people with enough wealth and power to control the automated manufacturing systems are more inclined to attempt mass irradication of the 'excess' population, either directly, or through starvation.

Pessimistic I suppose, but that's what I expect to see if we don't radically alter our value system before automation truly starts to take over everything...
 

Spankable

New member
Apr 8, 2009
18
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an interesting if 1 sided argument.

as a socialist I'm not going to put to much of a counter argument, but...

what has 200 years of capitalism in the UK delivered :

3000% raise in income of a basic worker.
the wiping out of many dreaded diseases, hunger & mass poverty.
increase of average life span by 40 years.
Mass communication, internet & Entertainment
Game of Thrones
Porno

Anxiety has always been a issue. will we starve this winter without eating the children, will the cut on my finger kill me, will i live to be old (40). Capitalism brings progress & new anxiety.

P.S. I work for a LARGE well know internet retailer named after a south American river, but i can't say which. our productively targets have gone up by more than 50% in the last 3 months.
 

Cowabungaa

New member
Feb 10, 2008
10,806
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Weber's work is fascinating, but simply not supported by reality. The rise of capitalism simply didn't start in Protestant areas, we can see that, so he's completely off the ball there.

Still, gotta love listening to this sort of thing with the soothing voice of Nathan Lowe. I welcome more of these kind of episodes, awesome to see philosophy/academic subjects being addressed here as an actual philosophy student. But in the future I'd like to here more than one side.

Spankable said:
It's a shame Weber never saw the rise of neo-liberalism from the late 70's and onwards, that's where capitalism showed its true problems. Regulated capitalism is indeed pretty good.
 

Zacharious-khan

New member
Mar 29, 2011
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Not sure how i feel about this series. Watching it makes me feel as though i've jumped in half way through a lecture.

I feel like a statement of goals for the series and a road map at the beginning of the episodes would do nicely
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
3,829
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0
Sylocat said:
CrystalShadow said:
Fascinating series... I'm glad to see something new anyway.

The nature of what is being covered is a bit beyond me, but that's fine. (I don't have the historical background to comment directly on the topic presented)

I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
Not for the individual that takes it to heart, but rather, society as a whole.
What do you do when you define people's worth through their work, when the majority won't be able to find anything to do?
She-Pudding said:
Interesting topic, and charming from its narrtor to its graphics. ^u^

I love a good e-series that teaches me something new, or has a novel voice to get me thinking... especially while lvl grinding or playing minecraft. I suppose this is just one more vid to keep an eye on!
If you're curious about the topic, you can do further (if less humorously-illustrated) reading here [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/04/the-politics-of-getting-a-life/] and here [https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/09/the-right-to-be-playful/].
That definitely made for some fascinating reading. You don't see stuff like that started clearly very often...
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
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CrystalShadow said:
Lightknight said:
CrystalShadow said:
I do fear a 'work ethic' Is slowly becoming a liability though. Because of automation and it's long term implications, having that as a core social value is going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.
I've considered this quite a bit lately. The notion that automation should eventually put people out of work. Ideally, this would mean a future where people don't have to work but are free to direct their attention to whatever pursuits they desire. But there's a lot of things in-between that could wreck us.

I imagine that the government will eventually have to legislate a certain ratio of human works be maintained for companies. That could side step the issue of massive layoffs with fewer consumers to buy things (because, again, layoffs).

We'll have to see how that turns out. What's sad is that robots will inevitably out-pace us eventually. There will be a day when there's nothing we can do that they can't do better. Everything from innovation to humor.
That's one solution. But an especially awkward one assuming the work would normally be done by machines for the sake of efficiency.

I would imagine a more viable solution longterm would be to remove all work related taxes, (primarily income tax), and try to ensure the remaining taxes can be distributed to the population.

Unfortunately, with current trends I rather fear the handful of people with enough wealth and power to control the automated manufacturing systems are more inclined to attempt mass irradication of the 'excess' population, either directly, or through starvation.

Pessimistic I suppose, but that's what I expect to see if we don't radically alter our value system before automation truly starts to take over everything...
Starving the population is a really good way for those in power to get their heads lopped off and stuck on poles. Also, I'd say that a population is really only excessive (within the scope of this conversation) if it is difficult to house or feed said population, something which automation should make easier to do. You'd have excess population in comparison to work that you needed done, but I imagine you'd see a shift to jobs created for arts, sports and customer service rather than a summary round-up and extermination of those who can't find jobs. Not impossible of course, as the tactics you suggest have been used before. I just don't think it's all that likely to happen, and surely not likely to succeed.
 

MASTACHIEFPWN

Will fight you and lose
Mar 27, 2010
2,279
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That 20% bonus production/production efficiency the Netherlands gets in EU4 for being Calvinist is well worth the stupid quasi-religious work yourself to death mantra.
 

freaper

snuggere mongool
Apr 3, 2010
1,198
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Wow, you guys nailed Wisecrack? Or just the philosophy branch? Either way, I'm really happy to see them here :D