8th Generation = Repeat of 5th generation

themistermanguy

Senior Member
Nov 22, 2013
677
7
23
Country
United States
Have you noticed that this generation has been eerily familiar to the 32/64-bit generation? In case you don't think so, let's look at the consoles.

PlayStation 4 = PlayStation - After being too overly-ambitious with the PlayStation 3, Sony returned the PlayStation brand to it's roots with the PlayStation 4. A big reason the PlayStation succeeded was because it gave developers and gamers EXACTLY what they wanted. A polished, powerful system that was easy to program for. It wasn't so much about innovation or surprising people, it was more about making something for the developers, and allowing them to make what they want, with very few restrictions. All factors that play into the PS4. But critically, Sony was able to capitalize on the competition's poor decisions, luring former fans of competing platforms into their hands. Speaking of which...

Xbox One = Nintendo 64 - Microsoft enjoyed a lot of success with the Xbox 360, being the go to platform for all the big core gamer blockbusters. However, the Xbox One at first, much like the Nintendo 64 initially, seemed like a disaster. The problem with the Nintendo 64 was that Nintendo stubbornly clung to outdated draconic policies including sticking with the expensive and bulky cartridge format. This pissed off developers who at this point, were already fed up with Nintendo's big bully attitude at the time. While Microsoft's plans with the Xbox One weren't developer controlling, they certainly were gamer controlling. Microsoft initially wanted to come in and dictate it's users over where they can play their games, when they can play them, where they can trade them in, who they could share them with, and how they can play them and how long they can play them for.

This pissed off a lot of gamers who were already weary of the XB1 for being more of a TV box than a games console. But much like how the Nintendo 64 succeeded in the West despite it's limitations, the Xbox One eventually gained a following among gamers after Microsoft scrapped it's initial draconic plans. Though it does have all the major blockbusters, as well as some very popular indie titles, and what is perhaps Microsoft's most refined first party output yet, it still lags behind the PS4 in terms of sales and developer support.

Wii U = Sega Saturn - It's amazing how once successful companies, can spiral out of control in only a couple of years. Nintendo enjoyed success with Wii by going after an audience of newcomers, who never really got into gaming before due to the complex nature of modern games. Sega enjoyed success with the Sega Genesis by targeting an edgier, older demographic than the competition with more mature content. The problem with both, was maintaining a long term relationship with those audiences. Sega's string of gimmicky Genesis add-ons, and the botched launch of the Sega Saturn nuked consumer faith in the company, and caused once Genesis fans, to leave the brand. Sega was seen as a fad, a washed up video game icon that succeeded on the novelty of "kewl", only to have their own arrogance destroy their momentum. Similarly, Nintendo's momentum with the Wii was showing it's age with the rise of mobile gaming and Kinect. Rather than adapt to the changing tastes of their consumers, Nintendo instead released the Wii U, a system which nobody, still to this day, can understand.

Both the Sega Saturn and the Wii U share the same problems of being too expensive, too difficult to develop for, and more complicated than they really should've been. Filled with useless technology, broken promises, conflicting priorities, and abysmal (and non-existant) marketing, the Saturn and U were massive slaps in the face to Wii and Genesis owners respectively. Costing their platform holders hundreds (in Sega's case billions) of dollars, and admiration.

Disappointingly as well, neither platform had a true Sonic game, nor a true 3D Mario respectively. The Saturn instead got a bunch of spin-off games, and the Wii U got an upgraded sequel to a 3DS game with co-op. Not exactly what fans were expecting. All is not doom and gloom however. The Saturn hosted a variety of unique first party offerings from Sega such as Virtua Fighter, Burning Rangers, and the cult classic, Nights into Dreams. Nintendo has also put out solid entries into their Award-Winning first party franchises such as Mario Kart, Smash Brothers, and the groundbreaking shooter, Splatoon. And much like how the Sega Saturn built a surprisingly strong lineup of Japanese 3rd party games, The Wii U gained a cult following with Independent developers, getting most of the big names like Shovel Knight, and Minecraft, as well as some unique exclusives like Runbow. Both of these made up for the otherwise non-existant 3rd party support.
 

Ambient_Malice

New member
Sep 22, 2014
836
0
0
I don't think the analogy quite works because the N64 completely obliterated every other console on the market technologically. The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games. Nintendo had strict standards around visual fidelity and stability. Games were not allowed to crash on the N64 during testing. Games were not allowed to have game breaking bugs. Games were not allowed to have z-fighting issues. The N64 was blowing about 30% of its performance doing depth sorting. Optional anti-aliasing was chewing up even more performance in some cases.

The difference is that Microsoft were just being greedy and corporate, while Nintendo's decisions were a mix of greedy corporate stuff and a "basic quality control is good" stance that goes back to their "Seal of Quality" thing.

The Sega Saturn's underlying problem was that it was designed for 2D games, which were rapidly dying out by 1996 as the shift to 3D began to pick up speed.

And then came the Dreamcast, which was a whole other story, since it was a 6th generation console.
 

Rangaman

New member
Feb 28, 2016
508
0
0
This is surprisingly accurate. The NX is also starting to resemble the Dreamcast in terms of how it was built up.
 

Rangaman

New member
Feb 28, 2016
508
0
0
Ambient_Malice said:
I don't think the analogy quite works because the N64 completely obliterated every other console on the market technologically. The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games. Nintendo had strict standards around visual fidelity and stability. Games were not allowed to crash on the N64 during testing. Games were not allowed to have game breaking bugs. Games were not allowed to have z-fighting issues. The N64 was blowing about 30% of its performance doing depth sorting. Optional anti-aliasing was chewing up even more performance in some cases.

The difference is that Microsoft were just being greedy and corporate, while Nintendo's decisions were a mix of greedy corporate stuff and a "basic quality control is good" stance that goes back to their "Seal of Quality" thing.

The Sega Saturn's underlying problem was that it was designed for 2D games, which were rapidly dying out by 1996 as the shift to 3D began to pick up speed.

And then came the Dreamcast, which was a whole other story, since it was a 6th generation console.
The N64 didn't quite do that. It could do 3D rendering fine, but (from what I remember) it wasn't very good with 2D sprites. It's also worth mentioning that 2D titles were still popular throughout the mid-late 90s. It wasn't really until the early 2000s that 2D properly died out.
 

Ambient_Malice

New member
Sep 22, 2014
836
0
0
Rangaman said:
The N64 didn't quite do that. It could do 3D rendering fine, but (from what I remember) it wasn't very good with 2D sprites.
It can do 2D perfectly well. It's just that basically nobody wanted to make 2D games, especially for a console that was unpopular in Japan and dominated by Western developers. (Nintendo invited exactly zero Japanese devs to be in their "Dream team".) There was a huge stigma. And also, making 2D games was more expensive in terms of required cartridge-size.

Rangaman said:
It's also worth mentioning that 2D titles were still popular throughout the mid-late 90s. It wasn't really until the early 2000s that 2D properly died out.
It's complicated. With a few rare exceptions, most 2D games sold poorly. There's a tendency to forget, for whatever reason, just how badly the Mega Man games sold.
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
18,532
3,054
118
Ambient_Malice said:
N64 completely obliterated every other console on the market technologically. The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games. Nintendo had strict standards around visual fidelity and stability. Games were not allowed to crash on the N64 during testing. Games were not allowed to have game breaking bugs. Games were not allowed to have z-fighting issues. The N64 was blowing about 30% of its performance doing depth sorting. Optional anti-aliasing was chewing up even more performance in some cases.
"The Playstation did so well because it was actually a shit console, you see". Love it.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
0
0
Johnny Novgorod said:
Ambient_Malice said:
N64 completely obliterated every other console on the market technologically. The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games. Nintendo had strict standards around visual fidelity and stability. Games were not allowed to crash on the N64 during testing. Games were not allowed to have game breaking bugs. Games were not allowed to have z-fighting issues. The N64 was blowing about 30% of its performance doing depth sorting. Optional anti-aliasing was chewing up even more performance in some cases.
"The Playstation did so well because it was actually a shit console, you see". Love it.
Technically, that's not entirely false. It's happened with the generations that followed, too; the PS2 was the weakest of the 6th Gen consoles (I guess with the exception of the Dreamcast, but that's another story), and had boatloads of shovelware trash released on it to inflate its library, ditto with the Wii, and yet they were the two best-selling consoles respectively (and still largely remain undefeated on that front). This is the first generation that really seems to have bucked that trend, and it's mostly because all three of the big companies managed to spectacularly bungle their launches, and only Sony has even really started to recover yet.

I mean, just because something is shit in one way doesn't make it shit as a whole.
 

The White Hunter

Basment Abomination
Oct 19, 2011
3,888
0
0
Hey!

The saturn was pretty good (if you lived in Japan).

But yeah pretty much, this generation in general has been a bit of a shit show though, very few truly great games coming out of big studios and publishers. Great indies though.
 

josemlopes

New member
Jun 9, 2008
3,950
0
0
Johnny Novgorod said:
Ambient_Malice said:
N64 completely obliterated every other console on the market technologically. The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games. Nintendo had strict standards around visual fidelity and stability. Games were not allowed to crash on the N64 during testing. Games were not allowed to have game breaking bugs. Games were not allowed to have z-fighting issues. The N64 was blowing about 30% of its performance doing depth sorting. Optional anti-aliasing was chewing up even more performance in some cases.
"The Playstation did so well because it was actually a shit console, you see". Love it.
Well, yeah...
The PS2 for example, it was really a weak console compared to the rest and it was hard to make the games work for it, but it rode on the PS1 success and it was the "first" 6th gen console (Dreamcast was a notch below in the eyes of everyone) so quickly there were a lot of PS2 users meaning that publishers wanted their games on the PS2 (the key of its success)
http://gamingbolt.com/developer-explains-what-its-like-developing-for-each-console-ps3-being-the-hardest

So yeah, success doesnt just mean that its good, just look at the Wii.


And for you to see an example of PS2 vs Xbox:
 

Johnny Novgorod

Bebop Man
Legacy
Feb 9, 2012
18,532
3,054
118
shrekfan246 said:
josemlopes said:
I'm just amused by how conveniently reality accomodates opinion, and not the other way around.

"The PS1 was crap"
"It outsold every other console"
"Because it was crap"
"What about the PS2?"
"Rode on the success of the previous console"
"Didn't you say it failed?"
"Because it succedeed"
"And the PS2...?"
"Best selling console of all time, had some of the best games ever made"
"That's good right?"
"No, because shovelware."
"And that makes it-"
"The worst console of its generation"
"What about the Dreamcast?"
"Doesn't count"
"Why?"
"Because"
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
0
0
Johnny Novgorod said:
shrekfan246 said:
josemlopes said:
I'm just amused by how conveniently reality accomodates opinion, and not the other way around.

"The PS1 was crap"
"It outsold every other console"
"Because it was crap"
"What about the PS2?"
"Rode on the success of the previous console"
"Didn't you say it failed?"
"Because it succedeed"
"And the PS2...?"
"Best selling console of all time, had some of the best games ever made"
"That's good right?"
"No, because shovelware."
"And that makes it-"
"The worst console of its generation"
"What about the Dreamcast?"
"Doesn't count"
"Why?"
"Because"
I think you're ascribing more negativity than is actually present, here.

The original post you quoted wasn't saying that the PS1 sucked, it said that it had lackluster quality control. I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the PS1 "failed", and nobody is saying that the PS2 sucked or was "the worst console of its generation" because it had a ton of shovelware (with the exception of Nintendo fans and even sometimes including them, people generally consider the PS2 to be the best console, practically of all time).
 

Vivi22

New member
Aug 22, 2010
2,300
0
0
Ultimately the only measure of success that matters for consoles is which had the best games. Making the PS2 one of the best ever made.
 

josemlopes

New member
Jun 9, 2008
3,950
0
0
Johnny Novgorod said:
shrekfan246 said:
josemlopes said:
I'm just amused by how conveniently reality accomodates opinion, and not the other way around.

"The PS1 was crap"
"It outsold every other console"
"Because it was crap"
"What about the PS2?"
"Rode on the success of the previous console"
"Didn't you say it failed?"
"Because it succedeed"
"And the PS2...?"
"Best selling console of all time, had some of the best games ever made"
"That's good right?"
"No, because shovelware."
"And that makes it-"
"The worst console of its generation"
"What about the Dreamcast?"
"Doesn't count"
"Why?"
"Because"
Then learn to pay attention to what is being said.

Its like you are in denial of what actually happened, you can have something be worse in a way and be better in another way.

EDIT: Also, just because a console is weaker doesnt mean its worse (since a console cant just be measured by hardware, software=games and what games and how many are available is important for a console). You can have very good games be made on weaker hardware, so yeah, dude, just think a little of what we are actually talking about.
 

Avnger

Trash Goblin
Legacy
Apr 1, 2016
2,075
1,212
118
Country
United States
josemlopes said:
EDIT: Also, just because a console is weaker doesnt mean its worse (since a console cant just be measured by hardware, software=games and what games and how many are available is important for a console). You can have very good games be made on weaker hardware, so yeah, dude, just think a little of what we are actually talking about.
But, but, but PC Master Race! and 1080p 60fps! and 4K! and 120fps! That's how we know real gamers. The better the hardware, the more amazing and better and cooler you and it are! Only sad losers have lesser things. Duh

EDIT: For those who don't live their lives being sarcastic all day every day: /sarc
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
27,008
11,316
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
Johnny Novgorod said:
I'm just amused by how conveniently reality accomodates opinion, and not the other way around.

"The PS1 was crap"
"It outsold every other console"
"Because it was crap"
"What about the PS2?"
"Rode on the success of the previous console"
"Didn't you say it failed?"
"Because it succedeed"
"And the PS2...?"
"Best selling console of all time, had some of the best games ever made"
"That's good right?"
"No, because shovelware."
"And that makes it-"
"The worst console of its generation"
"What about the Dreamcast?"
"Doesn't count"
"Why?"
"Because"
That's power of blind fanboys, they go out of their way praise one console to thrash the other, even when it doesn't make sense.

josemlopes said:
The original XBOX was more powerful (had better online too) than the PS2 & GameCube, but the PS2 was easier to developer for after it's early life cycle. The latter less "powerful" consoles had more variety on their respective systems. XBOX did have multiplatform games, but it's problem was being so focused on the FPS/online crowd; a heavy foreshadowing of worse things to come in Generation 7.

The original XBOX went like this:

FPS
FPS
FPS
Project Gotham Racing
FPS
FPS
A few Sega games oddly released on a console that wasn't interested in niche titles or arcade games.
FPS
FPS
Multiplats' here and there. Soul Calibur II being a very huge deal.
FPS
FPS
Stuff by From Software (Otogi 1 & 2). Once again, great games, but niche titles.
FPS
FPS
Sports: Mostly Realistic and some arcade style.
FPS
FPS
Dead or Alive and a few fighting came from Capcom.
Capcom Vs. SNK 2: EO (a port also released on GC) & Street Fighter Anniversery collection.
Ninja Gaiden
FPS to etc.

See my point. If I ever do get an original XBOX, it will be for those few niche titles, otherwise most of the games that came out on XBOX simultaneously were released on the PS2. I can get them on Amazon or I already have them.

That said, as much as Sony is improving, they still have not exactly learned from their arrogance.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
PS2 was so popular I think b/c it hit that 'sweet spot' where games looked reasonably good(atleast at the time) but didn't take 5 years and 200 million to develop. So it was very attractive for the middle market where a lot of the innovation came from. That market largely disappeared during the next generation of consoles as development costs ballooned and return on investment became pretty much a life or death situation for many studios.

This led to what we have now: indie and AAA with not much else in-between. Some of my most favorite games were released in the last 5 years but as a whole I really miss the risk taking and innovation of the systems that preceded the HD consoles. Sure often games were complete shit but now most AAA studios play it way too safe(sequels, tried and tested formulas etc). It's understandable given the circumstances and reality of business but 'safe' rarely leads to excitement. Not to mention the volume of AAA games released seems to have taken a hit as well with the ever looming no risk/no effort cash cow that is 'mobile gaming'.

Unfortunaly the current climate is such where it really doesn't pay to innovate unless on a shoestring budget with an indie game.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,351
363
88
You forgot something important in your comparison: games. And it's in games (the most important part of gaming) where the analogy falls apart. 5th generation saw the transition of mainstream games from 2D to 3D. It was a time of experimentation with diverse results (some more awkward than others). It was rare to find the same game in different platforms, because the different technologies gave different possibilities and different limitations. In this generation, mainstream gaming has mainly focused on taking proven concepts from the past generation, visually polish them, maybe add microtransactions, and release them in every platform possible (except Wii U and Wii).
 

josemlopes

New member
Jun 9, 2008
3,950
0
0
CoCage said:
That's power of blind fanboys, they go out of their way praise one console to thrash the other, even when it doesn't make sense.
Dude, it has nothing to do with console wars, it all came down to these two comments


Ambient_Malice said:
The secret behind the Playstation was a combination of factors including moneyhatting, no quality control for graphics, easy piracy, and cheap CD pressing allowing for a really good return on investment for lower budget games.
Johnny Novgorod said:
"The Playstation did so well because it was actually a shit console, you see". Love it.
I was defending on how what the first poster said was correct since the second user doesnt seem to acknowledge the flaws that the PS1 had (even though it still was a great system because of the variety of games, it was my only 5th gen console).

In that comment I used the example of the PS2 since it was also the technologically inferior console of its generation with also a great library of games making it the best console to own from the 7th generation.

So yeah, stop covering your eyes and see things for what they were.

CoCage said:
PS2 was easier to developer for after it's early life cycle.


Even the fucking PS3 was easier to develop.

I really dont see where I dont make sense, this shit is basic stuff, like why the Wii sold so much.
 

BrawlMan

Lover of beat'em ups.
Legacy
Mar 10, 2016
27,008
11,316
118
Detroit, Michigan
Country
United States of America
Gender
Male
josemlopes said:
CoCage said:
That's power of blind fanboys, they go out of their way praise one console to thrash the other, even when it doesn't make sense.
Dude, it has nothing to do with console wars, it all came down to these two comments



CoCage said:
PS2 was easier to developer for after it's early life cycle.


Even the fucking PS3 was easier to develop.

I really dont see where I dont make sense, this shit is basic stuff, like why the Wii sold so much.

I never said it was about the console wars, I was just pointing out something. Nothing more or less.

As for the PS2, I was under the assumption it was easier at least by 2003/04 at the rate publisher were making quality games on it or the XBOX/GameCube at the same time.

The PS3 was really tough to develop for in the beginning. Not a lot of games came out until 2009 or so. The console was in a slump with a high price point before the drop, and the few exclusives were not helping. A lot of the developers were not familiar with all the hardware in the system. I don't every story, but that's what a lot of developers were claiming.